50 sucky health insurance companies.

Why would you take your wife to the ER over a rash? Why did you pay $500 up front? Why would you assume that the second Doctor was correct and the first Doctor wasn't?

My experience tells me that if you go to three different Doctors with the same symptoms you will get three different opinions.

Since when is SEIU a right wing organization? What about all the other companies looking for exemptions because costs are going UP? :1orglaugh

http://blogs.wsj.com/metropolis/2010...kers-children/

Nope not going up.

As a lefty who supports health insurance reform I applaud this decision, as it will bring the health insurance companies to their knees where they belong. The distinction between mandatory health insurance and auto insurance is you don?t have a right to drive. In exchange for the state granting you the privilege to drive you agree to buy the insurance. If you don?t want to buy the auto insurance don?t drive it is that simple.

i think you missed entirely what i was doing there.... :2 cents:




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another rocket scientist that failed to see what i was doing although it was pretty obvious...

even corky that retarded dude from tv would have figured out what i was doing.... :2 cents:





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:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

health insurance premiums go up every year for me...

quite trying to vendzilla (blame) all your problems on obama... :1orglaugh

btw, i switched carriers this year and my rates when down $100 a month..

so, thanks obama for lowering my healthcare as promised...... :thumbsup & :1orglaugh:1orglaugh






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My wife was just saying the same thing after watching a blip about it on the news.

To say that it's illegal for the Government to require us to do certain things is perfectly legal. For example, I must pay taxes, I must pay into Social Security, and I must have auto insurance. I also must have a business license.

So I don't see where this law is any different. I'm not saying I agree with the law or the requirement that we must have health insurance, but it's a perfectly legal requirement.

:thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup

A for-profit system in charge of your healthcare is total bullshit!

@Demon and Amp

You are both right in regards to the insurance being different...

The insurance itself is different but the government forcing you to pay for one insurance or another is not different. It is exactly the same thing only more people agree with forcing you to pay for health insurance... The act of "forcing you to pay for insurance" is the same. I don't care what type of insurance it is, it's wrong to _force_ anyone to pay for anything that isn't damages being reconciled to someone you've wronged.

Phew, because I was thinking to myself "huh, I normally agree with him." =)

If the beginning and end of your position on Obama care is "does it increase costs on some businesses?" then there's really not much to say honestly.

Also, I think it was the congressional budget office who gave the long-term savings number back when it passed. Was not focussed like a laser on this or that segment, it was an overall prediction of how "we" spend now for what we get, and how "we" as a nation will spend under the reform, and what the savings were predicted to be.

Anyway, it's like the arizona immigration thing. Lawsuits are part of the process.

There are a lot of people that do think like that -glad you aren't one of them ...

BECCA! (sorry, had to)

Precisely, and more to the point, the idea of being legally obliged to purchase something from a for-profit entity is what this judge's ruling was all about.

If Obama Care included a public option the judge would, in all likelihood, have ruled differently.

If an uninsured driver slams into your car and causes damage, you wouldn't be very happy would you? Likely they were uninsured for a reason - they couldn't afford the insurance. I guess you're fucked, right?

Well, if you just had a stroke or a heart attack, and 5 uninsured people are in front of you at the ER because they couldn't afford healthcare, then guess who loses?

Under the Obama plan, even the poor will be provided with coverage, so they don't wind up in front of you in an emergency.

I personally don't think healthcare should be a privilege at all - it should be a fucking RIGHT in a civilized society, and it should just be another fucking deduction from everyone's paycheck, just like unemployment.

If you disagree, I hope you find yourself in a nice long ER line one day soon!

Do you even bother reading posts or do you enjoy embarrassing yourself with every subsequent post? Where did I blame anything on Obama? I love your defense mechanisms though.:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

That's what people don't get. The high cost of health care would be solved if you simply outlawed the practice of running health insurance companies on a for-profit basis.

No socialism required.

Your suggestion denotes your inability to understand how the world works, instead electing to live in dreamland.

Not if it was a government "regulated into not functioning properly" system like we have now, no...

But the government has already realized that they can introduce small amounts of regulation over a period of time in order to completely destroy what works about a free market. Once they've done that, they can get the majority on board for the government to step in and run things.

But the prerequisite is buying a car, which is completely optional. What is the prerequisite on forcing health care? Being alive?

You are missing the point... it has nothing to do with the type of insurance... at all. It's the very fact that you are being FORCED to buy insurance, period.

What right does anyone have, government included (actually specifically the government), to force you to buy ANYTHING?

There are many things the government does wrong - there are many things the government does right. I would happily accept a government-run system over the weasels and demons that run our healthcare now.

If it weren't for Obama's changes, then you couldn't even GET healthcare if you had a pre-existing condition, and even after paying and paying outrageous amounts into your healthcare, they were still able to drop you once you got sick.

I don't LOVE the Obama plan, but it is certainly a better plan than what preceded it. Still not nearly good enough, but to go back to how it was, is the equivalent of throwing the baby out with the bath water.

You fucking dick. That made me spit coke all over my monitor.

LOL, :thumbsup

What precedes the Obama plan is a health care system corrupted by our own government. I'll take just one example... The way health care is run now it is by FAR better to acquire your healthcare through your employer. This was made possible and preferred by pre-tax purchasing of healthcare. That's all fine and dandy and seems like a great idea but think of the ramifications. You change every health care insurance providers business plan. It's no longer about selling to the individual and about appealing to their needs and offering the best service to them. It's now about offering the best service and pricing to employers. That's the wrong direction and I believe it to be responsible for quite a bit of the issues now; it certainly hasn't helped the situation.

Talking about the pre-existing condition stuff... Nobody would really change their healthcare unless they were unhappy with them... OR and from my experience this is usually the case... you change employers. If healthcare wasn't so attached to employers and was instead attached to the individuals this wouldn't be the kind of problem it is now. Once again, facilitated by government intervention. On top of that forcing a company to accept a client that is going to cost them money is just ridiculous... What if the government told you you had to accept clients that were going to cost your company $250k? Do you think that's fair? The legislation forcing health care providers to pick up people with known conditions only raises your own rates... the money has to come from SOME place.

Also...

What is wrong with for profit companies? They keep this world turning more than any government does...

The food industry is vital to your health and while the content of the food is regulated and monitored the food industry itself is not NEARLY as regulated as the health care system.

I don't see people complaining about their choices of food... even the quality of food is very rarely called into question... and that's only natural considering just how much food is consumed on a daily basis.

There are more complaints with heavily regulated industries than industries with little to no regulation.

why bother reading..

your posts are all the same..

i think you might be retarded because you continue to think i am sticking up for obama when i have stated hundreds of times that he is just more status quo..

however, in this people are agreeing that people should not be forced to buy health insurance and although i agree with that since it seems to be written to line the pockets of the health care insurance companies, i will always feel that americans deserve the right to affordable health care..

did you notice how i said affordable healthcare.. to me that means that everyone should have the right to be able to afford healthcare even if that means that we have to give it to some people for free..

the healthcare bill that was finally passed was 180 degrees from what was the original intent. once again big corporations figured out a way to make this benefit themselves and not the people...

any questions?




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Ok I completely disagree with you but I'd like to say that this is a brilliant post. By specifying that you believe that everyone has the right to affordable health care you have exactly stated what you believe.

I personally don't believe that anyone has the RIGHT to ANYTHING they can't afford.

If you want affordable healthcare you aren't going to get it by forcing the people with the money to pay for the people without the money... that only drives costs UP. As the system has to support everyone, regardless of the fact that they can afford it or not. It's not free! Everyone else has to bare the cost.

Additionally, you've already made your choice between utopia and freedom. You've chosen utopia. You have an ideal that you would like to accomplish and you are willing to force everyone into participating in your ideal via taxation.

I can't and won't tell you that your opinion is wrong as it's an opinion... I will however say that the idea of forcing anyone to do anything else against their will... is wrong. At least in my book, hahaha.

EDIT:

When I read:

"...even if that means that we have to give it to some people for free.."

I translate to a much more accurate statement; "....even if that means that we have to force some people into slavery (working for someone else's benefit for no compensation)"

I don't have time to go tit-for-tat with everything you have stated here, but on a few points, your position is conflicting. For example, the need for healthcare to be provided to EVERYONE regardless of pre-existing conditions, IS PRECISELY what the Obama compromise was all about. In order to prevent the cost of the few, causing catastrophic rate hikes for everyone, is precisely WHY this plan requires EVERYONE to buy into the system, so the burden is shared overall.

Also, your contention that healthcare MUST be provided through your employer, is no longer such a big deal under Obama's plan, where INDIVIDUALS are required to procure their own coverage, provided their employer does not, or if they prefer to go it alone.

The Obama plan actually makes your coverage "portable" as well, just so you are NOT totally beholden to your employer.

And before we get into the government doing a great job regulating our food supply, I have just one word for you: Monsanto.

It fails check 1... Forcing people to do something against their will. Everything else is moot. Regardless of how good it sounds, regardless of what the cost is, it's still wrong. It could be the best healthcare system in the world but forcing everyone to participate against their will... is wrong. Period.

"requires EVERYONE to buy into the system, so the burden is shared overall." That's called socialism... I'm a Libertarian, there's a few conflicts there, hahah.

I also call that slavery... forcing someone to work for the benefit of someone else without compensation.

So you shouldn't be able to drive on properly paved roads then, because YOU didn't pay for them?

Health insurance should be payed for in the same manner - as a tax out of EVERYONE'S pay. This way it is EVERYONE'S responsibility,and EVERYONE'S RIGHT!

And just a wake-up call: The people who are paying now, ARE paying for those who do not pay, many of which could pay, if they were obligated to, thus reducing the burden for EVERYONE.

Good, so I guess Social Security, Medicare, Veteran Help, Unemployment Insurance, paved roads, school systems, police, fire departments, THE FUCKING MILITARTY - it's all bullshit to you, right? No one should have to pay for that, right?

That's called anarchy, by the way, and strong countries do not succeed on a "what I care to pay for" plan. :2 cents:

These arguments don't make sense to me.

Paragraph 1: I did pay for them... via sales and state taxes. Even tourists pay for them.

Paragraph 2: The only reason we're paying the hike is because the government is mandating health insurance companies accept patients who cost the company money. Your end results is forcing people to do something they don't want to do because YOU think it's the right thing to do. If you're hell bent on paying for other peoples' health care then just go ahead and donate a portion of each paycheck to charities and organizations that offer health care and medical treatment to individuals who can't afford it...

Love the sheep. "Insurance companies are evil" The Obama sheep solution "Make everyone buy it!"

This is a simpleton's argument. Send it off to Glenn Beck.

Perfectly retarded translation of the words that have been typed out here. Nice work!

this is actually how a debate is supposed to work, but too many people here that are not that intelligent are unable to have a constructive debate about anything, so they resort to name calling and belittling...

anyway, i think healthcare affordability is a right for americans especially considering that it is within reach..

take preventative care for example, it is a fact that in almost all cases, preventative care cuts down on major medical care because potential major issues are caught and treated earlier. preventative care has also been shown to keep the elderly healthier as they age.

i wish people had a better understanding of the costs of the non insured and understood that there tax dollars are paying for that care as we speak.

people have been sold on the fact that healthcare will be free for everyone but themselves and that they are the ones that are going to pay for it.. thats what one side wants you to believe, and thats not what ended up happening anyway..

what happened is the big corporations figured out how to force the uninsured to pay for health insurance that they most definitely can't afford..

personally, i am all for doing away with this bill and starting over or leaving things how they are today..

maybe when people see their loved ones die because medicare is bankrupt, they will decide that proper healthcare reform needs to take place..

and medicare is broke and will continue to worsen as the baby boomers use their benefits....





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Social Security, Medicare, Veteran Help, and UnEmploy Ins should be optional, yes.

Paved roads should be paid for by taxes.

Schools, police, and fire departments should be privatized.

"THE FUCKING MILITARY" should be paid for from taxes as it's in the fucking founding documents of this country.

And no that's not called anarchy... not from a definition point, not from a "modern meaning" point, not from anything... You are essentially calling the United States pre-1950 "anarchy" LOL

It's sure easier to get public free health insurance, rather than private insurance.

Q: Has the Obama administration allowed corporations to "opt out" of the new health care law?

A: No. The government has granted more than 200 waivers, but these merely give companies a temporary delay before being required to improve the coverage of cheap, bare-bones plans they currently offer.

http://factcheck.org/2010/12/health-care-law-waivers/


In other words, the healthcare law sucks

Nothing, except when those companies demand of constantly higher profits become literal life and death situations.

you ever had someone in your family die because they had to fight for years with their insurance provider over whether or not a condition was pre existing?

if not, than stfu...

and btw, who do you think influenced the decision to make health insurance mandatory?

you think that was obama? really?

he should take just as much blame for being too much of a pussy to scrap that whole bill and start over, but then the right would have screamed that he was getting nothing done in office...

and if a republican was in office, we would be having the same argument because the corporations crafted this bill not the govt...





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@marketsmart

Agreed! We have both made our case for what we believe, neither of us called each other names or an idiot etc...

We found our difference of opinion and both realize that we are entitled to our own opinions. I don't think any less of you as a person because you have a differing opinion. I just know now that you value the Utopian ideals that you believe can be achieved over what you consider to be a minor loss of freedom.

I'm the other way around :D

Either way, I like your attitude and your posts; and that increases my like for you far more than something as trivial as a difference of opinion regarding what we view as "the ideal" could ever decrement my opinion of you :)

and thats what's at the heart of the matter...

too many people focusing on obama and thats my issue..

lets focus on the fact that this bill is a pile of shit and needs to be scrapped..

it does nothing it was intended to do except deal with pre existing conditions which i am all for...




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No one pays into something that is "optional" - privatizing schools, police, and fire departments is retarded - the military is a fucking black hole that sucks up all of our countries' money, and is the main reason for our ridiculously overinflated deficit - pre-1950 there were MANY antiquated notions in this country, that, as we develop, correct and improve.

Ask your black and women friends if they enjoy voting, for example.

The one thing I'd like to see most with any health bill is getting rid of the whole pre-existing conditions bullshit. That kills most people who are even willing to pay for their insurance themselves.

Call 911 and threaten to commit suicide and watch as police rush over from whatever heinous crime they were about to stop to come force you to live.

At least that's how it works in movies...one of those things that I just wouldn't be surprised if it was the same in real life too.

On a serious note, it's interesting that mandate of all drivers to have auto insurance coverage is a state-by-state thing. All I can say is that thanks to it being mandated here, half of all TV commercials here it seems are auto insurance commercials. You can't tell me state officials don't get SOMETHING from those companies for keeping it nice and forced.

I think we are in agreement but we just dont know it.

I could probably find some reasonably accurate numbers to back this up but I think just by stating it I'll make my point.

Add up the cash donated to charities and not for profit organizations...

Sure there were antiquated notions... but forcing someone to work for the benefit of someone else without any compensation is and will always be, in my mind, slavery. As it is the very definition of slavery. You only earn money by working; that comes in many forms but that is how money is acquired. By forcing money from someone you are forcing them to work part of their time for someone else without any benefit; slavery.

I understand if many people think it's acceptable to force money from other people "for the betterment of society" but let's call an apple an apple. The benefactor of the forced payment / work does not change the terminology; an individual, a group of people, a large group of people... doesn't matter.


EDIT

- I think it's unacceptable for any reason
- You think it's unacceptable (I'm guessing here) for any personal gain
- Some other guy thinks it's ok if it's medicare
- Some other guy thinks it's only ok for health care

Who is right? Nobody is right, it's all a matter of opinion and I think everyone here will at least agree with that statement.

So my question is this: Why is it that legislation and law that forces taxation / payment / fines / service / etc... can be created based on opinion?

The constitution and bill of rights were specifically designed for this NOT to happen. The power was specifically NOT given to the government so that things like this wouldn't even be able to be voted on... however our government has now overstepped the authority granted to it by the people.

If your taxes go to help your neighbor's kid get educated, and one day they are the doctor you rely on, then you DID benefit - you were not a "slave" at all.

If your unemployment taxes go towards other people's unemployment you can feel like the victim, but when YOU lose YOUR job, then it all comes back around, doesn't it?

Healthcare should be a portion of your paycheck. You have to pay for it anyway, so why is this such a crazy idea? That way everyone pays into it, and everyone benefits from it.

The only people who do not like that idea, are the thieving (and unnecessary) for-profit insurance companies in the middle.

And, by the way, slavery, as defined by Webster, is actually "submission to a dominating influence". By that definition, you are already a slave - a slave to the corporations that control you, on every fucking level, right down to your healthcare.