So you shouldn't be able to drive on properly paved roads then, because YOU didn't pay for them?

Health insurance should be payed for in the same manner - as a tax out of EVERYONE'S pay. This way it is EVERYONE'S responsibility,and EVERYONE'S RIGHT!

And just a wake-up call: The people who are paying now, ARE paying for those who do not pay, many of which could pay, if they were obligated to, thus reducing the burden for EVERYONE.

Good, so I guess Social Security, Medicare, Veteran Help, Unemployment Insurance, paved roads, school systems, police, fire departments, THE FUCKING MILITARTY - it's all bullshit to you, right? No one should have to pay for that, right?

That's called anarchy, by the way, and strong countries do not succeed on a "what I care to pay for" plan. :2 cents:

These arguments don't make sense to me.

Paragraph 1: I did pay for them... via sales and state taxes. Even tourists pay for them.

Paragraph 2: The only reason we're paying the hike is because the government is mandating health insurance companies accept patients who cost the company money. Your end results is forcing people to do something they don't want to do because YOU think it's the right thing to do. If you're hell bent on paying for other peoples' health care then just go ahead and donate a portion of each paycheck to charities and organizations that offer health care and medical treatment to individuals who can't afford it...

Love the sheep. "Insurance companies are evil" The Obama sheep solution "Make everyone buy it!"

This is a simpleton's argument. Send it off to Glenn Beck.

Perfectly retarded translation of the words that have been typed out here. Nice work!

this is actually how a debate is supposed to work, but too many people here that are not that intelligent are unable to have a constructive debate about anything, so they resort to name calling and belittling...

anyway, i think healthcare affordability is a right for americans especially considering that it is within reach..

take preventative care for example, it is a fact that in almost all cases, preventative care cuts down on major medical care because potential major issues are caught and treated earlier. preventative care has also been shown to keep the elderly healthier as they age.

i wish people had a better understanding of the costs of the non insured and understood that there tax dollars are paying for that care as we speak.

people have been sold on the fact that healthcare will be free for everyone but themselves and that they are the ones that are going to pay for it.. thats what one side wants you to believe, and thats not what ended up happening anyway..

what happened is the big corporations figured out how to force the uninsured to pay for health insurance that they most definitely can't afford..

personally, i am all for doing away with this bill and starting over or leaving things how they are today..

maybe when people see their loved ones die because medicare is bankrupt, they will decide that proper healthcare reform needs to take place..

and medicare is broke and will continue to worsen as the baby boomers use their benefits....





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Social Security, Medicare, Veteran Help, and UnEmploy Ins should be optional, yes.

Paved roads should be paid for by taxes.

Schools, police, and fire departments should be privatized.

"THE FUCKING MILITARY" should be paid for from taxes as it's in the fucking founding documents of this country.

And no that's not called anarchy... not from a definition point, not from a "modern meaning" point, not from anything... You are essentially calling the United States pre-1950 "anarchy" LOL

It's sure easier to get public free health insurance, rather than private insurance.

Q: Has the Obama administration allowed corporations to "opt out" of the new health care law?

A: No. The government has granted more than 200 waivers, but these merely give companies a temporary delay before being required to improve the coverage of cheap, bare-bones plans they currently offer.

http://factcheck.org/2010/12/health-care-law-waivers/


In other words, the healthcare law sucks

Nothing, except when those companies demand of constantly higher profits become literal life and death situations.

you ever had someone in your family die because they had to fight for years with their insurance provider over whether or not a condition was pre existing?

if not, than stfu...

and btw, who do you think influenced the decision to make health insurance mandatory?

you think that was obama? really?

he should take just as much blame for being too much of a pussy to scrap that whole bill and start over, but then the right would have screamed that he was getting nothing done in office...

and if a republican was in office, we would be having the same argument because the corporations crafted this bill not the govt...





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@marketsmart

Agreed! We have both made our case for what we believe, neither of us called each other names or an idiot etc...

We found our difference of opinion and both realize that we are entitled to our own opinions. I don't think any less of you as a person because you have a differing opinion. I just know now that you value the Utopian ideals that you believe can be achieved over what you consider to be a minor loss of freedom.

I'm the other way around :D

Either way, I like your attitude and your posts; and that increases my like for you far more than something as trivial as a difference of opinion regarding what we view as "the ideal" could ever decrement my opinion of you :)

and thats what's at the heart of the matter...

too many people focusing on obama and thats my issue..

lets focus on the fact that this bill is a pile of shit and needs to be scrapped..

it does nothing it was intended to do except deal with pre existing conditions which i am all for...




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No one pays into something that is "optional" - privatizing schools, police, and fire departments is retarded - the military is a fucking black hole that sucks up all of our countries' money, and is the main reason for our ridiculously overinflated deficit - pre-1950 there were MANY antiquated notions in this country, that, as we develop, correct and improve.

Ask your black and women friends if they enjoy voting, for example.

The one thing I'd like to see most with any health bill is getting rid of the whole pre-existing conditions bullshit. That kills most people who are even willing to pay for their insurance themselves.

Call 911 and threaten to commit suicide and watch as police rush over from whatever heinous crime they were about to stop to come force you to live.

At least that's how it works in movies...one of those things that I just wouldn't be surprised if it was the same in real life too.

On a serious note, it's interesting that mandate of all drivers to have auto insurance coverage is a state-by-state thing. All I can say is that thanks to it being mandated here, half of all TV commercials here it seems are auto insurance commercials. You can't tell me state officials don't get SOMETHING from those companies for keeping it nice and forced.

I think we are in agreement but we just dont know it.

I could probably find some reasonably accurate numbers to back this up but I think just by stating it I'll make my point.

Add up the cash donated to charities and not for profit organizations...

Sure there were antiquated notions... but forcing someone to work for the benefit of someone else without any compensation is and will always be, in my mind, slavery. As it is the very definition of slavery. You only earn money by working; that comes in many forms but that is how money is acquired. By forcing money from someone you are forcing them to work part of their time for someone else without any benefit; slavery.

I understand if many people think it's acceptable to force money from other people "for the betterment of society" but let's call an apple an apple. The benefactor of the forced payment / work does not change the terminology; an individual, a group of people, a large group of people... doesn't matter.


EDIT

- I think it's unacceptable for any reason
- You think it's unacceptable (I'm guessing here) for any personal gain
- Some other guy thinks it's ok if it's medicare
- Some other guy thinks it's only ok for health care

Who is right? Nobody is right, it's all a matter of opinion and I think everyone here will at least agree with that statement.

So my question is this: Why is it that legislation and law that forces taxation / payment / fines / service / etc... can be created based on opinion?

The constitution and bill of rights were specifically designed for this NOT to happen. The power was specifically NOT given to the government so that things like this wouldn't even be able to be voted on... however our government has now overstepped the authority granted to it by the people.

If your taxes go to help your neighbor's kid get educated, and one day they are the doctor you rely on, then you DID benefit - you were not a "slave" at all.

If your unemployment taxes go towards other people's unemployment you can feel like the victim, but when YOU lose YOUR job, then it all comes back around, doesn't it?

Healthcare should be a portion of your paycheck. You have to pay for it anyway, so why is this such a crazy idea? That way everyone pays into it, and everyone benefits from it.

The only people who do not like that idea, are the thieving (and unnecessary) for-profit insurance companies in the middle.

And, by the way, slavery, as defined by Webster, is actually "submission to a dominating influence". By that definition, you are already a slave - a slave to the corporations that control you, on every fucking level, right down to your healthcare.

By the sounds of it he wants to move backwards into time. This taking of wealth and giving it to others have been around since the dawn of time. Freedom is a new idea that many are scared of.

The government runs Medicare at 3% overhead while private health insurance runs collectively at 30% overhead. It?s painfully obvious for anyone with a brain to see which system is broken. Get rid of private insurance and you have eliminated roughly 1/3 of the cost in the entire medical system.

If my posts were all the same, then you would learn how to read by now. Since you're still not getting it, I'll assume you don't.

Man, you really DO make random shit up and pass it off as fact. Apparently not only was I trying to blame Obama, but I insulted you because I think you're sticking up for Obama, not because you're an idiot who can't read!!!:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

You DO realize that to make that post even remotely logical, you'd have to be using the same numbers for both types of healthcare, otherwise you just look biased and ignorant...


And for those that don't know BFT3K yet, he basically concedes an argument that's above his pay grade when he tells you that you're regurgitating (insert right wing source here).:1orglaugh

Your first point doesn't make any sense at all. You don't get a medical doctorate from public education... public education is a whole different topic that I'd be happy to get into a later date, hahaha. BTW I come from a family of teachers... just throwing that out there...

It's not like unemployment would suddenly just go away LOL. It would just be optional for the employer... think 401k... it's a benefit.

Not everyone pays for and/or wants health care coverage. Some people prefer to pay for their doctors visits because WHOA IT COSTS LESS! I personally carry a private insurance that only covers me in emergency situations. It's far less expensive and I've saved tens of thousands over the years. I'm generally pretty healthy. Regardless you can't justify forcing someone to do something because, "everyone else is doing it".

I fall into none of those categories...

I am a slave to no corporation and neither are you. Please name a single instance where a private company in the United States is enslaving someone. You voluntarily choose to do business with whomever you are doing business with. Although you could say you are forced to use a specific telephone and cable provider but that's only because the government has declared them natural monopolies and additional companies are forbidden from providing service in your area ;) Again, the more legislation the more shitty the service becomes; look at Amtrac, LOL. It's illegal to create a passenger train service in the United States because you'd be competing with the government owned Amtrac. We can all see how awesome the passenger train system is in the United States ;)

The states impose this, not the federal government. A state may impose a mandate, but not the federal government.

where did you get those facts?

medicare has more fraud going on then in nigeria.... :2 cents:

its the fact that medicare and medicaid are going broke as to why this whole healthcare shit started in the first place..




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Thank you :) You beat me to it :)

More people should understand that the federal government's power is supposed to be very Very VERY limited. All other powers are granted to the state! Most people don't even know that let alone comprehend the why...

i accept your apology and yes, if i am ever in the downtown cleavland area i would love to have lunch with you...




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You can't use the current system as an example... it's already been completely corrupted by the government via massive amounts of regulation.

I accept your concession. I'm sorry for continously making you look unintelligent. I'll try being nicer if you try being smarter.:1orglaugh

you can't fix stupid....

i will tell you that i plan on attending 4 tea party rallies and at least one republican fundraiser this year, so that ought to raise my iq by at least 3 points...




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Very true, Sometimes we all have to take a bite of the ol shit sandwich...LOL :2 cents:

You have the OPTION not to drive a car. You dont have the option of not to live.

That would be nice, it can't possibly get any lower at this point. Oh wait, turn on MSNBC.