OK So let's say the Vivid, Wicked end of the market didn't sell well on the Internet, because they didn't know how to market it on the Internet. Why didn't one of the Gurus who knew so much about Internet marketing go to them and make a deal?

Missed opportunity there. Splitting a feature into scenes works.

The reason magazines declined was because there were millions of images being given away for free on the Internet. Comfort of a home buy is a great incentive. If you don't make it easier to get it for free than it is to pay. Free is more comfortable than paid these days.

Good maximising the value of content is something most sites totally missed. Some didn't understand they could of paid for their members area with sales offline.

Robbie has no clue how many joins he lost and was just spouting. Looking at the samples on his site he might of made $25,000 on a single DVD sold world wide. If he had a clue about how that market worked the distributor would of told him the sales would soon double as shops realised it was a good seller.

Giving away the product an industry produces is bad long term business. IMO it works well while buyers from the old style come over and continue to buy. But slowly the buyer learns it's foolish to buy porn when so much is available for free. A few got rich in the boom years. They didn't last long.

The model of building sites on a low quality product then spending a fortune on sending traffic that increasing got harder to sell to, in that ratios over the years got worse and worse and only supported by more and more traffic coming onto the Internet. Because more and more people got dis-satisfied with buying. Average ratios went from around 1-250 to 1-2500 and the only thing that covered this drop was the actual number of surfers on the Adult net increased 10 fold or more. Now that traffic has leveled off and a lot of new traffic simply isn't buying, cultural or economic, the hurt is being felt. The traditional loyal buyer has been put off.

That's my opinion... as well....... to each their own of course... :)

Paul,

Regarding your wicked/vivid opportunity lost comment, I agree.. A lot actually...

Regarding the loyal buyers.. They moved, and they are still buying. Thousands and thousands of them every day.

Knowing how many sales I lose or gain is my business Paul. I don't have to prove anything to you...but I KNOW how sales work. I've made a lot of money doing this for a while now.

As far as the distributor telling me that sales "would soon double"...uh, IVD is the biggest distributor in the world. When the owner of it tells me how that business is doing I think I'm going to trust his knowledge of sales and distribution over yours. No offense. But you just made a disparaging remark about my field of expertise (sales) and IVD's field of expertise (distribution) while having no expertise in either field. Just sayin'...

Anyway, I'm not gonna argue points with you. The real reason I came into this thread was to just say that I respect what you do. I don't agree with your ideas on marketing or how to make money. That's all. Have a good day. :)

The magazine buyers didn't just move, they mostly stopped buying. The comfort of viewing millions of free images was too much for magazine buyers. TGPs were for them the Tubes of today.

As for DVD buyers all I know was the devastating effect the Internet had on that side of the business. Up until recently the only way to get full scenes was Torrents or buy. Today with Tubes I suspect the same that happened to magazines is happening to paysites. The buyers are more comfortable viewing free scenes than buying a membership.

Because not only is there the problem and risks of using a credit card and Tubes have a lot more to offer. The ability to log in when it please the viewer, not on a paid subscription limit membership. If the viewer only wants 30 minutes once a week a Tube is far better.

Then, and IMO the most important, if the scene doesn't meet the viewers needs, he switches to another scene, and another, and another until he finds what does meet his needs. Many paysites repeat the same scene, view and style. If one scene isn't good enough the next might not be either or the rest. Tubes have a vast selection of different styles, views and ways to shoot the same niche.

Quantity and updates. No need to explain that.

The only downside is the quality of the Tube video. Can't compress the buggery out of it and expect it to be crisp. But stats prove this has meant little to many ex buyers.

and in the end it all comes down to paul's usual solution to save the porn industry:

100 videos for $1,000......100 videos for $1,000......19 HD videos for $150......19 HD videos for $150......More Special Offers

ICQ 213327873 or Skype paulmarkham1

IMO. The policy of loading sites with cheap content, what ever the niche, and spending a fortune on free content has led us to where we are today.

Besides bad billing practices, there were other bad practices. Hiding the CANCEL button, locking people into a 30 day recurring membership in a site full of low level porn and then loading the Internet with increasing more free content led to buyers getting harder to convince. The impulse to buy was replaced by the impulse of "Is my CC safe to use?" or "Is this a site with a great tour and little else?" and "Why do I need to buy a months membership when I only want 30 minutes?"

The "Amateur sells" is also wrong. Tell that to Sapphic, Allscan, Twistys, OTCash, FTV, all great sites with great content. And there's more. The reason most went down the amateur line was they simply couldn't afford to pay a good shooter to produce, thought they could shoot it themselves or thought "If I throw enough traffic at it I can sell anything."

The last attitude led to so many sites with the same kind of content it's pointless to protect it. If they do there are 20 other sites who don't with the same content. Different sofa and girl. ;)

Bang Bus did spend money on shooting. They were not scrimping. Some of those who copied them were though.

Many of the old school did come to the Internet, some made it and some didn't. Hustler, Score, PRO, DD Francesco, Gold and Sullivan, Eva and I, Viv Thomas, Swank, Bookpress (Seventeen) and I'm sure there's more. Some employed the Internet Gurus.

We didn't open a paysite, until 2005, because as stated I know little about Internet marketing and I never met anyone who I trusted or had figures to show we would make money. Most of the time it was "Give me all your content and I will do it all for you and give you half the profits." When I did this the returns were crap.

Giving up shooting magazines and selling the same content on the stores to concentrate on a paysite was never an option. Too much of a gamble. Hindsight I'm glad we didn't.

Yes for us it works. Selling content today we shot years ago. After the servers are paid all profit. :thumbsup

Did you think, that's the state of most of those buying content today. There's more money in Bargain Basement prices than quality? No of course not. :1orglaugh

My solution is to stop selling what can be found for free, start producing content of value and lock it down and stop paying exorbitant amount to get traffic that doesn't buy.

Convert and retain more of what you have.

/=retirement

paul,

what you just do not accept, understand or simply ignore is that:
1) There are a lot of paysites out there, a lot more than 5 years ago, and a lot of them are GROWING and not SHRINKING! I should know, I own a few of them ;) I also looked at a TON of stats...
2) Many paysites _CAN_ afford paying good shooters. As do we, bangbros, naughty america and others...
3) I agree that many sites out there suck, that many of them do not produce good content, that they are hurt by free content available... but that's not the free content's fault, its the site owner's fault for thinking he can make money with crap... but I think we actually agree there...

The Net is a lovely tool to make money on, and the people that do it right, make a lot of it... there just are VERY VERY few of them that do!

I would say a lot of the changes happening in this market reflect wider changes happening in mainstream culture and technology. As porm moved from film to video, so mainstream TV moved from film to video, from programe budgets of 100,000 per hour to 5,000 per hour as the number of channels fragmented the audience and the Ad revenue.

The move from Film to video was also a move from the professional to the amateur.

As a product has less production value in it becomes cheaper and cheaper, and the dominant players can flood the market with product.

I would say it is a mistake to say there is one answer, one busines model, but more likely several models. Profits will continue to be made selling DVD magazines tubes and subscription sites. There is not one buyer but millions of different buyers from all the different cultures of the world. Some want burgers some want to eat french quisine.

One is truck driver wanting to watch big breasted double anal, another is a teen watching has Ipod and yet another a couple wanting to watch something to get them in the mood on their new massive TV without the wife calling him a pervert.

The real element we are selling sexual intimicy and magic and I think this is very difficult to capture. We we are interested in is capturing it as well as we can both from the sex / erotic aspect and the artistic technical side.

An interesting factor is that the technology that de skilled porn and media production is now moving in the other direction. Digital Movie cameras are becoming higher quality than film cameras, TV and projectors are becoming better and better, the technical demands on focus, exposure, white balance, sound are returning. In a few years a lot of content will be unwatchable (it is now ). Where will the full HD high quality stereo sound erotic content come from?

But the main thing is what do people find erotic / hot, and I would say more thought on what and how we shoot would produce better results.

:2 cents:

Fiddy confused old men

Exactly,does people never heard about lol cats ??? :helpme

Anyway,i will use this opportunity to post following url:
http://www.e-novine.com/fotogalerija...ske-zeice.html
This is porn for Paul Markham :upsidedow

You do realize that your own tube sites don't post full scenes of your own content right?

You do realize there are 10 other huge tube sites out there than ours?

J-E-S-U-S that is a big camera!

DVD companies were not able or tried to avoid distributing their content online. Let´s take a German company called "Videorama" which is located in Essen. They had a large DVD archive, quality content and a variety of niches - Gina Wild for example was one of their famous models and brands in Germany. Their internet sites always failed miserably and they refused to licence their content to online companies. Today you can licence their content for a bargain on virtually every street corner.

Maybe not all of them, but many went bankrupt. Not only producing companies, but retailers as well. Blockbuster for example.

In my opinion it´s not the niche, it´s the way you sell it.

Think of Nathan and tubes whatever you like, but I´m pretty sure he can afford it.

Tubes are a traffic source. I do not really know if they are profitable for selling cams and pills, but I´m sure they can convert the traffic they produce into sales.

[/QUOTE]Everyone else tells us Tubes are decimating the industry. Have Tubes turned 1,000s of buyers into free surfers? Or is Nathan lying?[/QUOTE]

Tubes are not a charity organization. They seem to be profitable else they would die pretty fast. They do not wreck the industry, but they change it. Tubes possess the traffic today and traffic is one important factor for online sales.

Lol just beacuse everyone else are thiefs doesn't give you right to be thief too.

Good thing I am not a thief then...

Digital didn't make porn easier to shoot. Anyone who thinks it did doesn't know much about porn. That's a bold statement so here the reasons.

Getting scene properly lit for porn isn't hard. It would take me a couple of hours to teach someone. Film cameras have had auto focus for 20 years or more. To say film deterred or stopped people shooting porn is ludicrous. Amateurs would phone a magazine editor, find out he was paying $1,000 to $2,000 for a set of a girl and shoot a set, thinking 2 sets - $2,000 to $4,000. Then send it and then get it rejected. Even to amateur magazines like Hometown Girls. Editors had to employ people to sift through the amateur content before they wasted time to view it.

The biggest difference today is the level of buyers requirements, the ease of creating an outlet and the number of outlets. 15 years ago if you couldn't sell to magazines or DVD companies you were dead in the water. Today practically anyone can sell anything if the price is right, the level of quality in the porn is rock bottom.

5 years ago a decent magazine solo girl set was worth $3,000+ and not to sell outright. Digital was in demand by magazines. ANY shooter only working for $300 to $500 a scene OUTRIGHT was robbing himself blind or not a very good business man. Or more likely not good enough to shoot the average level of magazine content.

OK today there's little option if the shooter can only shoot porn. He's stuck in a dead end. A decent wedding photographer out earns him. Never did.

To say the custom shooters of 2005 and before preferred to work for $2,000 a day tops in turnover instead of $6,000 is ludicrous. Even the custom shooters of then could of split their production.

So what is shooting porn really about?

1) Knowing who to shoot. Some girls have it and some don't. No matter how pretty she is there's something that make a girl light up or turn off about being shot. Knowing how to light a girl up inside is more important than knowing how to light a scene. Knowing how to motivate a shy girl or take control of a control girl, or get an over confident girl to work hard is an essential skill.

2) Knowing how to construct a scene for a client. Mayfair want different poses and sets to Barely Legal. Hustler want different porn to Penthouse. (Only examples) Knowing the sequence of poses is essential for stills, knowing the progression of a video scene the same.

3) And above all knowing how to make 2 strangers who don't give a fuck, or one for solo, look like they would fuck the world for a pizza and not just 2 wax dummies is what turns the naked flesh into the finest meat cooked and prepared into a fine delectable dish.

Today it's about shooting cheap content in quantity and churning it out. In the belief that the more boring stuff added is best. One scene that his a porn viewer in the loins is far better than 5 that are just genitals banging together.

Yes I live in the past. Who wouldn't like to turn the clock back to 2005?

Just sent you my first scene review. Will do more later, cooking dinner soon.

About as tough to operate as a digital camera today. Except it was very heavy, made pov when standing up a dangerous job for the girl. :1orglaugh

And of course online marketing of porn takes a 5 year University degree which is why there are so few doing it. :1orglaugh :1orglaugh :1orglaugh

In truth anyone who could submit a TGP could online market porn. To market a site online wasn't rocket science either. Otherwise there would be very few sites. The truth is online marketing of porn is simple. If you honestly think Videorama, or any large porn company, couldn't of figured it out or employed someone who knew how to do it your not thinking hard.

For years webmasters have deluded themselves about this myth. So here's what it takes to get a decent website set up.

Employ a decent programmer.
Hire or sub contract to a design company to design a site.
Go to a successful online porn site and see what they offer affiliates, copy the tools.
Offer 55% rev share or what you can afford PPS.
Go to a show and talk to some of the big guys, not hard to know who they are.
Spam the boards.
Employ a kid to design galleries and submit them to TGP sites.
Buy spots on TGP sites.

Spend 1/2 or more of your turnover giving away the product you're trying to sell.

Today it's even easier. Buy a good Tube site or set one up and buy lots of traffic and track the stuff that works and rebuy from these guys and also spam surfer boards with "Have you seen this really cool new place to get free porn?"

Real marketing people don't work on the Internet.

MOST of the successful sponsors today started pre 2000 and if they started today would be dead in the water. Even Bangbus.

When they started they took an idea that had been done on video a lot of times. Built a site around it when no one else had something like it. Produced pretty good porn, converted well, which is absolutely essential to a porn site. Unless people will send tons of traffic to a site that doesn't convert. MILF Hunter I've heard is also a good site.

There is one major reason so many top porn companies didn't go online in the early days. THE SHOPS SELLING THEIR PRODUCT TOLD THEM THEY WOULDN'T IF THEY COMPETED WITH A SITE.

Of course a good marketing man would of figured that out.

i'm just here for the free porn



(as long it's not mine)

As for major companies or even small ones changing the way they do business, even when they can see their particular section of the market in decline.

As I said that for some is very hard to do. They are making money in a way they know. They often don't know how to change. Sometimes they think it's going to all turn out for the best. A lot of course don't want to risk what they have on something that could be a gamble. And I suspect some are just riding it out and earning what they can until the bubble finally burst.

But enough about the Adult Internet. :winkwink:

What many here are saying mainline porn companies failed to do to adapt to a changing market is exactly what the Adult Internet business is guilty of doing. Did anyone think the birth of Tubes would devastate the business in the way it has? How many stopped and changed their business to adapt to the new times?

Exactly. :)

very true

If Robbie thinks Porn Valley was only about giving someone a script he doesn't have a clue.

Sorry Robbie but Amateur, Gonzo, POV, exited long before the Internet.

As for this statement. It shows a short sighted perspective.

The Adult Internet has mostly been about copying what someone else did. Even today people quote what Bang Bus made. They made it copying Porn Valley's idea of shagging in a vehicle. And they made it on the Internet by being first. And dozens copied them.

Paul I shoot these girls everyday.... they show up scripted in posing and actions... it's very, very difficult to break them of their porn valley training. Robbie is a total nut job, but I love him, and he makes sense in lots of ways... :thumbsup

while you on the other hand you seem to be all over the map with weird stuff that doesn't make much sense. I've been here in porn valley shooting day after day after day for over 10 years, making a living year after year after year. watched plenty of shooters and programs/companies/girls/agents/pimps come and go. I think I have a pretty good idea of the lay of the land so to speak.

btw it doesn't really matter who has what girl, who invented what or coppied who, what really matters is the bottom line. WHO SELLS.

I'm here for your free porn :thumbsup

Let's be very honest. The reason the Adult Internet started shooting amateur, Reality, etc. Is because that's all it could afford or that's all the guys shooting could manage. I admit when I started shooting that's all I could manage.

But a Vivid end scene was worth far far more than a Homegrown end scene. A set in Penthouse was worth more than a set in Hometown girls.

If what Robbie said was true, tell it to Mac and Bumble, Twistys, Only Tease, Matrix and me. Because we all shoot better than amateur and we all made money.

Yes it's difficult to break a girl out of shooting the better quality stuff. Because that's what she got so much work doing. AND anyone who tries to shoot a pro porn girl as an amateur girl is hitting his head against a brick wall. Shooters at the amateur end have to find amateur girls. You must know that with all your experience.

As for your 10 years. I can match you by a factor of three, yes this is my 33 years in porn. Making a living year after year and still make a living without doing sweet FA. Because I knew enough not to give me work away to people paying cents on the dollar.

As for Robbie making sense. Let's talk about it.

He produced one DVD title, made $25,000 and his distributor told him he wouldn't make that with the second one. Plus those sales cost him more than $25,000 in sign ups on his site.

You know something about porn valley, know of a distributor who takes only one title?

How does the distributor know he won't make more with the second release which should be a month or at most 2 after the initial release? Either all the punters who bought the first one came back and said they wouldn't buy that title again or the shops still had it on their shelves.

OK he sold a DVD with 5 scenes on and it cost him on his site, because of pirating. How does he know? All those who saw it emailed him and said it was crap and they wouldn't buy a membership? What ever if 5 scenes were enough to satisfy their desire for CM he should keep very quiet about it. Because if it's true his site doesn't retain.

Or as you said he's a nut job. :1orglaugh

Sorry BM but if you knew anything about this business you would know a distributor is clueless if a title will sell after 1 release, unless the shops didn't sell it. A DVD that sells the first time gets re-bought by the shops, it's the second 1 that doesn't sell. Because the guys who bought the first 1 don't re-buy. It's like members re-billing. You must know that after 10 years unless you only worked for Internet companies.

you can' have it both way Paul.. first I'm not a photographer then I'm a great photographer, I'm not a photographer, I'm a pornographer... skills don't matter etc... this has always been your stance now suddenly you are a glamor shooter? no way bro

any woman can be shot amature

maybe maybe not, the truth is you have no idea what's going on now or in porn valley


I know about the business I'm in. I shoot for websites, I make no other claims other than you have no idea what's going on in my biz... you can post as many 'laughs' as you want... doesn't change a thing :2 cents:

Paul you are twisting my words.

We put out "Claudia-Marie Big Titty Southern Milf Vol. 1" at the very beginning of 2008. Piracy was really just beginning to do major damage to the business. Not as bad as it is now...but enough that the OWNER of IVD told me before the DVD hit the stores that it would be nothing close to the sales that it would have done 5 to 10 years earlier.

Actually doing the DVD took up a ton of my time. I designed the box cover and worked on the graphics with people and agonized over the scenes I wanted on it and what order to have them.

Then I spent a bit of time hammering out the deal to distribute it so I could keep internet rights for VOD and PPV.

It took a lot of my time Paul. And in the end...I netted about 25 grand. The amount of time I spent doing the DVD wasn't worth it to me in the end. I can make a lot more than 25 grand with that same amount of effort and time.

And then I saw those scenes immediately ripped and on the torrents...and THEN I started seeing ALL our scenes from the members area on the torrents. In other words, I put myself on their radar in my opinion. Or maybe it was just coincidence?

IVD is ready anytime I want to release as many DVD titles as I'd like. But it's not worth the time and effort for me. I make more money doing the things I'm doing online. And DVD sales have dropped even further across the board for all companies since two years ago. So it would most likely generate even less sales.

So on one hand YOU would say I'm leaving some money on the table by not putting out DVD's. But from MY perspective, time IS money. And I can make more money that rebills for a long time with my online work.

Believe me...IF piracy finally gets a lid put on it legally where they can't do what they are doing to all of us now...then I promise you I will be putting out a nice DVD series. I'm perfectly capable of shooting EXACTLY what big tit fans out there want to see and we have the fan base to make it happen...IF the title isn't available for free within hours of it's release for everybody to download and burn their own DVD.

why do you always talk like there is only one way to do it. I've done well for 10 years and never looked for a single person to promote my site either. Some stuff I would rather not talk about like what "well" is but i'm sure it is more then most think.

Actually look up ugly george he pioneered amatuer gonzo porn not bang bros

I didn't mean to insinuate that gonzo porn was pioneered by OxCash and BangBus.

I know it reads like that, but it wasn't what I meant.

I meant that it was the first time that I had ever seen something as funny as Bang Bus. It was very, very original to me to see a couple of guys in a van with a $200 camera cruise down the road, pick the girl up, fuck her in the back while the van is driving down the road with everybody in the van talking and cutting jokes, and then dumping the bitch in the middle of nowhere while she is cursing them as they spin out.

I don't know that anybody ever did anything quite like that. If they did...I never saw it. And it certainly wasn't seen by as many people as the original Bang Bus was.

And then when they morphed OxCash into NastyDollars and opened up Milf Hunter...I've never seen sales like that before or since. It was just the perfect time and product and outsold anything I've ever seen. I'd send them 50 sales a day 7 days a week on Milf Hunter when it opened.

I'm sure that you guys can find DVD titles from the previous 30 or 40 years that shot girls getting fucked in a van. Or that shot older women getting fucked.

But speaking of OxCash/NastyDollars/BangBros... I GUARANTEE you that you CAN NOT EVER find anybody else that had the thematic style of one of their sites called: FartHammer :1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

Do any of y'all remember that site? :1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

It was filmed in that same style as BangBus...BUT, it featured this guy fucking the hell out of really hot babes in really nice locales, and right after he would cum, he would put his ass right in the girl's face and FART! :1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

I never made even one sale with that...but it sure made me laugh. :1orglaugh

Oh damn...it's still online! :1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

http://the-fart-hammer.com/

Very true.

There's too many unique factors involved for anyone to assert that their experiences have merit over anyone elses.


To the OP (Paul): Not everyone's business is shrinking or dying. Echoed many many times over, fullfill your customer's fantasies you'll do just fine.

You forgot to add "successful".

You are right, obviously. That´s why there is those high density of millionaires here on GFY.

I honestly do not think about it. I took Videorama as an example because I know what they tried to do over the years. And they failed.

Now you have built your decent website. The question remains does it sell?

I see. You´ll finally agree that tubes are the future of porn.

I can´t contradict this one. Even those stupid fucks working for Google are doing it from an office.

Maybe you are right here, but I´m not sure about Bangbus.

I haven´t seen such pretty good ideas coming from old fashioned video companies. They used to deliver their boring content over and over again. That´s why they went down.

That´s true. And it is the reason why they - the producers as well as the shops - are struggling now.

Seems that they didn´t have good ones.

I think you should re read what I wrote. It's way off what you replied. I never said I was a glamor shooter. I compared prices.

Yes. But some aren't very good at it and you're wasting your time.

10 years ago you would of been gar better off financially shooting for porn valley. Why didn't you?

In the business of selling a repeat buy product there is only one way to do it. Keep the customer satisfied. If you know of another way tat's successful in the long term let us know. :thumbsup

Ugly George, that was the guy. Wandering the streets of NY with a large camera strapped to his back and looking like a tramp, Great stuff. :thumbsup

Quoted for the truth.

I got in the biz due to a disability Paul... unlike you I had no intentions of being a porn shooter. at the time I lost everything, had a daughter in school, had to buy food, pay rent etc...

I emailed about 70 websites looking for work, 'how much do you pay for pictures?' after trying everything else AND getting more disabilities. first my shoulders, then my elbows.

only atk replied to my email. still shoot for them, have shot for 12-15 other programs over the years as well. and no, shooters shooting for other companies and for 'porn valley' make far less than I do and always have.

like I keep saying to you Paul: you have no idea what's going on in the biz I'm in.