So just because I use the internet that automatically means it's done more good than harm for people? eh ok... idiot.

Maybe you should go talk to this kids family and ask them how the amazing internet changed their lives.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,312018,00.html

Oh but I guess it must have you made you some easy money.. so it must be an automatically great thing.

*Moron.

If you think something is bad, but you still use it then you're pretty fucking stupid.

OK first You're quoting FAUX News

Many people claim PORN has ruined their lives so let's ban that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_of_Megan_Meier

It's a very well kown case and you can be sure there's loads more just like it out there. The internet has helped kill plenty people and has ruined many peoples lives.

Not only did it ruin the parents lives but it also ruined the perpetrators lives.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...chatrooms.html

The internet is a dangerous tool that allows people to gain access to your personal life so much easier then ever before.

Best stop using it.

Immediately.

Whether the porn shows up on a high resolution LCD screen or the wall of a cave there will always be some guy ready to choke his chicken. If he can do it for free because someone gives it out to make a quick buck and doesn't care where our industry will be in ten years, his cumshot feels just as good.

You just have to look around - lots of idiots with no real-life skills. That explains it all.

not this shit again
fifty Paul´s threads

Fitty survivals:thumbsup

Hey Paul. Two quick questions for you. Seriously...

How much do you want to bet, the overall revenue generation from the adult industry is MORE than it was before the internet.

And also...

How much do you want to bet the overall profit margins from revenue is MORE than what it was before the internet.

Not impressed by this site, very slow to load, pop up and other shit, and hard to get the content you want to play...

So if that was the competition I am sure a paysite could appeal to a discerning client

I have answered it and will clearly indicate it again.

10,000 video titles a year, selling 10,000 copies each at $30.

That's all small figures and a low average. Probably just the US would of done that. So add EU and the rest of the world.

Then add softcore videos.

Then add cable.

Then add magazines. Say 300,000 per title per month at $10 and multiply it with every title around the world.

Phone sex was also a big earner. Probably not as big as web cam, but still very big.

It's really all guess work as there has never been solid figures to back it up, just guesswork. Pointing to Private or Wicked turnover and comparing it Manwin's is stupid. They were only producers, not retailers. You have to include retail to get the true value.

As for profit. What do you think is the profit from a $30 join? Compared to a $30 video?

I would say 50% of online porn's turnover goes in generating traffic. And that's probably getting higher as few people join. Unless you're shaving.

50% in traffic, 10% in processing, 5% in hosting, 5% in running the site, 10% in content. That leaves 20% and is probably generous. By the time overheads are included.

The only real clue we have is PLAYBOY bought Adult.com for $9 million. Not a lot of money in the business world and neither online. And they probably wished they hadn't spent that much. Didn't Penthouse buy AFF?

What online company has bought an offline pornographer?

Why didn't Manwin buy up Wicked and only get a deal to market their online side?

Wicked, Private, Evil Angel have a fortune in back catalog content. If online is so successful why hasn't an online company bought them out? According to you online could make a lot of money from the content.

No they buy broke online sites. :1orglaugh

Those consumers aren't possible. They are consuming, just not paying to consume.

The 20 million on Pornhub don't seem to care about low resolution.

Poor shooting is a lot that has turned customers away from paying for it. But that can't be solved by sites that according to Fabian are making money hand over fist, so how does anyone else afford to do it?

It is possible to shoot great content, just not on the budgets provided. I'm no great shooter as far as porn's concerned. But no site can afford me or will afford me. Neither will they stop shooting the same old repetitive porn that's old hat.

Free online porn will eventually reduce this industry down to a shadow of what it was. Whether it's pirated or legal.

Or has someone got an ideas or ways to turn the tide?

AFF bought Penthouse... :winkwink:

Paul,

So as you said "it's really all guess work" so you have no back up for those numbers, its you guessing.. AVG sales per video title were also clearly not 10000. Thats a way too high number. Sure, some have sold 100000 times, but many were sold, also back then, only 1000 times.

Also softcore, cable, all that is still around.

Today, there is clearly at least still 10000 video titles a year, and they on avg I would say are sold around 1000 times nowadays. But thats hard to say for sure, as it is for you to say for sure too.

Cable, Softcore, Magazine is still around. Although also for Mag sales, 300k per title is definitely not an avg number of circulation for a mag back in the day...

Phonesex is pretty big still.

Your knowledge of online is limited, so let's not even talk about your flawed calculation regarding what a $30 join profits.

Penthouse went bankrupt and the owner that bought it out of bankruptcy got a loan and bought AFF. They did not get a loan because penthouse was so awesome though, they got a loan because AFF was.

Manwin did not buy Wicked since thats a stupid thing to do. Buying out an offline porn company usually removes the talent from it since the owners are usually the creative minds. Buying Wicked completely would likely mean losing Steve and thus making Wicked invaluable as an asset, except for its back-catalog. But that simply is not enough to really gain.

Buying Private, today, is also a big issue, since it will be very complicated to do so simply because of how Birth Milton is. He is also sadly destroying the Brand currently, and it will lose all its value until the end of this year if not sooner. Regardless of a back catalog. If everyone hates Private, the back catalog is worthless too.

Evil Angel, for some reason, I have not looked at closely enough yet, good idea though...

Always fun to argue with you though, Paul. :)

And how do you suppose we decide the figures?

That's the problem.

And how are you arriving at that figure?

Your knowledge of the video business prior to 200 is about the same as every other punter who walked into a porn shop. Unless you can tell me different and prove it. My knowledge is producing for them directly and working as a stills shooter on productions. 10,000 copies selling wholesale to distributors and retail isn't a high figure. Do you know what it use to cost to duplicate 1,000 and 10,000 copies in 1995, what the cost of the tape, box and cover cost?

Not as strong as it used to be. Softcore could sell in every shop in the land. Do you think the shooting time was trebled by shooting hard, medium and soft versions of the same scene because it didn't make money?

Cable subscriptions were huge, I forgot to add Hotel Chains, add that figure.

As it is for you to talk about an industry in a time that you are clueless about.

And you would know that because??

That's right, you don't.

I gave figures, estimates admittedly. You say nothing but limited. So give figures.
So someone else bought it and then bought AFF. Was it an online buyer buying Penthouse?

It's about their back catalog, not the future. Are you saying they still have a great future?

There are many companies that have awesome back catalogs that would, if you're right, make a fortune. Porn 1995 was far better than porn 2011. I'm guessing but what would 10,000 scenes shot by a great shooter for a good company be worth online with a company like yours?

You tell us how well Brazzers and your other sites are doing. And that's with pretty average content and some of it awful. Did you see my review of Brazzers Irish Jig scene? Worse porn scene I've seen in a very very long time.

Fabian comes up with statements that are based on nothing solid. Those who have been around for a while will know I ridiculed porn video producers who were shooting BG scenes outright for $2,000 a scene.

Saying offline was paying or spending far more.

So $10,000 for 5 scenes for a video. That on a production run of 10,000 videos is $1 per tape. Add all the other costs and it's obvious that on a average scene 10,000 is an average number for duplicating each title. To do a run of 1,000 clearly shows a lack of knowledge for those times. Unless he knows more.

Move up into the better end of production and each scene would cost $10,000. Shooting 3 versions, in a good location with a camera crew of 2, sound guy, lighting guy, make up, clothing, location and actors it wasn't hard to spend money. Add profit for the shooter and $10,000 becomes viable figure. For a better end scene.

Remember shooters in those days didn't consider $500 for a days work as well paid.

porn is an ever changing commodity, and it will never disappear nor will its profits be reduced to nothing.

Very true.

Don't think I ever said it would.

Paul, I saw your comments on the St. Buttricks Day clip on Brazzers. I also saw the votes from the members of ours for which this content was produced. I honestly do not give a rats ass if you find it bad. 80000 people viewed it within 7 days and 260 people voted for it, arriving to an avg of 9.01 of 10. That's all I need to see there.. so its completely irrelevant if you do not like the video, all that fact shows is that you lost your connection to what porn online is about.

All your arguements are flawed simply by taking a look at revenue that a company like Playboy or Private had in those "good times".. it really was not awesome... 200m in a year of PB, far less a year for Private. And you keep using at least PRVT as an example. Circulation for PRVT for example, all of year 2000 was 2.3m copies printed in total from 311 issues in total. That's Less than 8000 copies per issue on avg!! FAR from your "300k" figure. The biggest mag being Triple-X with a circulation of 518k in 38 issues just shy of 14000 per issue!

PRVT's Net Sales (ie, Revenue) in 2001 was only 33m USD. 2000 only around 22m USD. But you will come and say you keep talking about the 1990s ... well.. sorry, 1997, net sales for PRVT was only 10m USD.

PRVT also sold max 80000 DVDs per month, total thus being just shy of 1 million a year. Out of 462 titles in total it owned. So we are talking 2100 per title! NOT 10000!! And PRVT was one of the best selling companies out there!

All this info is taken from http://www.prvt.com/investor-resources/ btw.

Penthouse was bought by Marc Bell who made most of his money in the IT industry btw. And he bought it for $1 plus all its debt on the books (as far as I remember, I might be wrong there though).

Well good luck making much money off of "discerning porn clients". Unless there's millions of discerning porn clients which there isn't then you won't be making any or much if you rely on those types of people.

All of those videos are more than good enough for me to watch and I assure you are more than good enough for 95% of the porn surfers out there as well.

I think porn will never die. New technologies will allow porn to be presented in the New World. Old-fashioned methods of earning money are dieing off.

"Evil Angel, for some reason, I have not looked at closely enough yet, good idea though..."

I hate you and love you at the same time, you are like my ex girfriend! LOL

Give us an idea Fabian, come on! We usually don't have the chance of seeing people behind the huge companies writing here or entering this type of discussions ;)

What everyone would love to know ;P How many members currently brazzers have? Whats their average members retention? ( Only brazzers, no the cross/up sales sites built from DVD titles just to get double payout on sales ;P )

Paul, you are making almost total guesswork about the average number of units of a VHS or DVD adult movie that was typically sold back in the 90's. I worked in the office of the biggest distributor in the US in most of that decade and took careful notice of everything that went on there on a daily basis including what titles and series were selling in what numbers. Besides being the in-house producer, I was also directly responsible the daily operations of the production end of the company including supervising sales, coordinating with other producers and organizing physical production of VHS tapes, printing boxes & sleeves and many other facets of the day to day operations. So I know with absolute certainty from years of day to day experience and observation how many unit sold of movies in that time, on the low end and high ends. And also about production budgets and eveything that went into them.

10,000 was a very large number of units of a VHS or DVD movie to sell, a huge hit. 2500-3000 or more units moved in the first 60 days or so was doing well. Of course there were and are other platforms to sell to and potentially earn more money from. And of course some companies did much better than others.

I could type thousands of words about the subject of the offline porn biz in the 1990's & 2000's, about all the players, marketing strategies, production techniques and everything else about the business back in the day. But I have a lot of work to do before I leave for Phoenix the day after tomorrow, so I'll just leave it at that for now.

BTW, "Could porn really of [sic] survived the Internet?" is really taking a mangling of your native English language to a whole new level. And by that I mean you have pretty much reached its nadir.

Sorry but I don't accept that todays consumers think that rubbish scene is that good. As we know those votes can be rigged. It's still a crap scene and a waste of money. You're arguing that doing something badly is better than doing something well.

All your arguements are flawed simply by taking a look at revenue that a company like Playboy or Private had in those "good times".. it really was not awesome... 200m in a year of PB, far less a year for Private. And you keep using at least PRVT as an example. Circulation for PRVT for example, all of year 2000 was 2.3m copies printed in total from 311 issues in total. That's Less than 8000 copies per issue on avg!! FAR from your "300k" figure. The biggest mag being Triple-X with a circulation of 518k in 38 issues just shy of 14000 per issue!

PRVT's Net Sales (ie, Revenue) in 2001 was only 33m USD. 2000 only around 22m USD. But you will come and say you keep talking about the 1990s ... well.. sorry, 1997, net sales for PRVT was only 10m USD.

PRVT also sold max 80000 DVDs per month, total thus being just shy of 1 million a year. Out of 462 titles in total it owned. So we are talking 2100 per title! NOT 10000!! And PRVT was one of the best selling companies out there!

All this info is taken from http://www.prvt.com/investor-resources/ btw.

Penthouse was bought by Marc Bell who made most of his money in the IT industry btw. And he bought it for $1 plus all its debt on the books (as far as I remember, I might be wrong there though).

Is this like the WOLF PUZZLE Paul? A game for you? Do you try and say the same thing in as many threads as possible, as many times as possible until everyone on GFY stabs you in the face for being, well, shit?

Are you in fact a morphing RSS feed?

Sorry but I don't accept that todays consumers think that rubbish scene is that good. As we know those votes can be rigged. It's still a crap scene and a waste of money. You're arguing that doing something badly is better than doing something well.

The point is could you be getting something far better?

And from a producer of content for 30 years I think the answer is yes. Your content is littered with elementary mistakes, your sites are bland and character less. Other than size their's little else to keep members and when so much is all the same it get boring faster than it could.

You're a programmer with little knowledge of the porn industry. I'm a producer in many spheres of the industry. I won't argue with you about programming, if you promise not to argue with me about porn. :winkwink:
Again you quote production companies revenue. Go and think of the retail revenue. Internet porn companies incomes are retail. Porn production companies income was wholesale at best and often they sold to wholesale. Same with magazines. The biggest magazine circulation was at one time Playboy, then Penthouse, then Hustler. Even a magazine like Fiesta in the UK did 1/2 million circulation. Go look at the retail price and get the calculator out.

You have missed one of the biggest stream of revenue and I wonder if you even know what it was.

On 2100 titles selling at $10 wholesale it's $21,000 income per title. Private couldn't afford to produce the content they did on $21,000. Go think it through.

So a non porn person bought AFF?

There's no other market left for porn paysites. The non discerning customer is on Pornhub consuming for free.

As for the 95% figure, well free was always good enough for 95%. That's a conversion ratio of 1-20. I would say conversions today are 0.01% 1-1,000 of all porn surfers and I think I'm being generous.

I try to come up with ways to improve it, like better content inside a paysite, and everyone shouts me down. Seems they think more traffic is the answer. :Oh crap

You're a funny guy, Paul.

That's because everyone aside from you realises you need to get the punter to pay before they get access to inside your paysite if you want to improve your ratios.

"I want to sell more covers at my restaurant...I know, I will make the food much better than it used to be, but not tell anyone about it and just hope some brave it through the front door."

One of the problems of online porn in the early days is it never really understood it's market.

It understood the programming, building a site and affiliate side. But very few understood who bought porn, why and when. It just thought that if they could send enough traffic at a site someone would buy.

Even marketing men like Damian don't understand the market.

They don't even know where a huge part of porn's income came from.

And it suffered because of it. Even though many were giving indications of what was motivating the customer they ignored it to keep the traffic flowing.

You're an idiot and clueless.

To get better ratios it's all about what's inside the paysite. Or repeat buying customers are as stupid as you and don't get more cautious every time they sign up to a site that's best part, is on the tour.

And ratios are only part of our income, what about retention? So once the customer has paid and sees it's not as good as promised, is he staying for months or going in 1?

Is he ever coming back?

And how do you generate the traffic to the site? Throwing out the same content 100s of other sites have and have 1,000 affiliates throwing it out? :upsidedow

Or having great content that's better than the others and having 1,000 affiliates throwing it out?

Affiliates stay with the best paying sponsors. The best way to make money from a customer is to keep him rebilling and converting more of them. The only thing that does that is good to great content.

The number of people who can generate traffic is huge. Look at Tubes for instance. The number of people who can generate good to great content is small. Because of skills and budgets.

You're living in the past and still think it's easy.

Now we know why you live in a dump. You're not very bright.

See sig.

WOW! Name calling Paul! That REALLY makes your point look sensible and well thought out. Let's see where your awesome counterpoint goes shall we? I imagine you will call me more names, not make a counter point and then bang on and on about content for a few hundred words. Let's see...

Really? Maybe we have different definitions of the word ratio?

I mean it it mean the number of people that HIT YOUR TOUR compared to the number of people that SIGN UP.

What do you think it means?

How do you think they join the site, if it isn't after seeing the tour? Guess CCBill join page URLs?

We're not talking about retention. YOu said, clearly, that in order to improve ratios for conversion to a pay site, the pay site had to have a better members' area. That is what I pointed out was wrong. No one mentioned retention. Of fucking course good content will increase your rentention. No one is suggesting otherwise, love.

I mean, carry on with straw men if you like, it's your usual MO. Viz:

1) You make an elementary mistake
2) I call you on it
3) You call me names and argue against a point no one made

Again, nothing to do with ratios. But carry on if it makes you feel better.


Again, nothing to do with ratios. But carry on shouting at the moon.

Again, nothing to do with ratios.

Again, nothing to do with ratios.

I find this hard to believe now, but again, nothing to do with ratios.


Again, nothing to do with ratios.

Thanks for putting that in. Seems your copy writing isn't very good, only one person has clicked on it since you did it.

I hope you get more than that clicking on your 19 HD videos for 150 bucks sig or you are REALLY wasting your time here.

I can write some compelling sigs if you like. In the time you've had one click, mine has generated 119.

Here's some ideas for you:

"Look at a video of Damian in the flat I think he still lives in. I think he is an idio:thumbsupt"

"Damian used to live in this flat! Watch this video and LAUGH:321GFY!"

"I HATE DAMIAN LA LA LA LA HE IS A MASSIVE IDIOT LOLOLOL!!!:Oh crap:Oh crap"

"HAHAHAH DAMIAN DOES MAGIC LOL!:Oh crap:Oh crap"

Damian's expertise marketing doesn't even start to understand the fundamentals of selling a repeat selling product to a repeat buying customer.

Maybe he thinks that selling crap sites to customers for 10 years + hasn't had an effect on those customers.

Maybe he thinks there are still millions of new customers coming to buy every day.

Repeat buying customers learn, maybe not the first time, but definitely after the 3rd or 4th time. That tours are often misleading. They grow more skeptical every time they sign up to a site that doesn't deliver.

They look at the content on the free sites and that's the first thing that interest them. If they aren't interested they move onto the next piece of free content. That's where traffic starts to flow.

Then when they land on a site the whole deal relies today on the content, the surfers not interested in glowing words, he's been fooled before by them. Is it any better than the last site he joined, is the site giving enough out to install confidence in his decision.

And then retention has tons to do with ratios.

Retention is a large part of everyones income, it generates the income to get better content, to get better affiliates to send better traffic and that better content resutls in better ratios.

Damian lives in the past, it's 2011 and the surfer is far wiser, far pickier and has far more options today. Stop marketing like it's 1998.

Damian's idea of generating enough traffic to get 0.01% to join is so old hat and not working today. As can clearly be seen by Tubes, tons and tons of traffic and shit ratios. LOL

i guess the shrink affects the producers mostly. As for the rest of the chain parts i'm not sure.

Paul, if you want to talk about those things, I think I can keep up with you. However, you were talking about how to increase ratios. If you want to talk about something else, cool.

You said that in order to increase ratios you need to improve your members' area.

This is wrong. It's so sweet you think the porn market is just the same bunch of guys going round joining sites.

Take 100 people. None of them have seen your members' area. Show them your website. How does the part of their website THEY CANNOT SEE improve their propensity to join?

If you would like to make a counterpoint on that, please do.

Or, if you want to call me names and talk about cheese sandwiches, that's fine too.

/me ruffles your hair

Paul, I give up :) It's like talking against a wall... Well, a tad more fun than that, but a waste of time, you completely ignore arguements anyway.

If you would at least acknowledge some things people tell you, that would be a start, but you blatantly ignore 100%.

One thing I never mentioned, was that all these awesome production companies you mentioned, should have made tons of money online, since their conversion and retention would be sky high. But yet, it is not. Because content might be important, but it needs to be adapted to the medium!! A high-quality 3 hour DVD might be important since quality is everything you get there. But on a computer screen, 20-50 minute clips, massive amounts of content, far more than on one DVD... none of that you even pretend to begin to understand.. It does not matter if you think I do not know porn. I do not need to know porn. I need to know how to sell things online. Actually, I do not even need to know that. I have a team that knows that. I am simply good, very good, at M&A and Synergies.

Also, very important, you keep mentioning that I am ignoring the retail revenue. What YOU ignore is that markets evolve. More people buy, costs of distribution and production drops, then the cost per item drops. That's how markets work. It's a fundamental thing needed to evolve the market. As others have told you also, 10000 copies sold at retail of 10000 releases each year, is complete and utter nonesense. it's much closer to 2000 copies of 10000 releases each year. so 20 million copies sold. That also is not avg of $30 per copy, since back catalog back then already sold in bundles, and for less than $30 a copy. But let's just pretend it was $30. That's 600m USD.

Compare this to paysite memberships. That's 20 million memberships a year, 1.66m memberships a month, 55555 memberships a day. At retention of just 1.5 months on avg across the net, that's 37000 sales a day needed to generate that revenue. Among the Top 10 programs, that's just 3700 sales a day. I can GUARANTEE that this number is easily beaten!

But on top of this, profit margins are also much much higher than retail, wholesale or production companies had on the DVDs.

while I am not Nathan, he said 80k views of some trailer in a week in their members area. so let say, some people saw that trailer twice, but some people didnt look at it at all that week, i would guess around 80k members (10k+ or -10k) :2 cents:

I am sure quality helps to build a site...but Paul has failed to answer how it can build ratios.

The main problem being only examples can be seen on the tour and the higher the quality the lower the quantity.

The punter is tempted by the 10,000 videos rather than the 10...

Free porn may help the quality paysite in the long run, the audience that likes to see high bit rate HD erotic...

The main growth area is the popularity of HD TV, big screens and 1920 x 1080 and bitrates of 10,000 plus video...

Will the tubes be able to meet this demand for free ?