Yes 5 million can be profitable. Remember the days when 100 could be profitable?

The problem with Tubes is today a video needs 10,000 views to get a sale. Tomorrow 10,100. Next week 10,700 and this time next year 20,000. The porn buying market isn't a bottomless pit. It's a declining resource. And the more free porn we've thrown at it over the last 12 years has only had 1 result. Less people per 1,000 bought.

For years the decline was hidden by the increase in traffic. Now the traffic we can bill has leveled off and all Tubes are doing is taking from another source of free porn and converting less.

The idea that free porn created surfers therefore created buyers was bullshit in 1998. now Tubes have proven it's bullshit. To listen to the idiots spouting that line, you would think prior to 1995 there was no porn. :1orglaugh :1orglaugh :1orglaugh :1orglaugh

Hmm, no comment :winkwink:

I make some. From my own wordpress tubes with 1min promo clips :)

I remember a time when you could come online and the only thing to do was either look at porn or buy it... and check your spam.

My "content" is Claudia Marie's website. I KNOW how good it sells. Why don't YOU take a shot advertising a paysite on a tube?

I don't know how well x-art sells. I do know that nubiles has their own free tube script for their stuff...don't know how well that does either. I do know the folks at nubiles/anilos though. Do you have access to their numbers? Or are you just making a guess on tube sales for these companies?

And again...if it's on a LEGIT tube, yeah they can make a few sales. I damn sure don't see ANY paysite banners up on Pornhub. And the program owners I speak to in person at shows have all told me that the Pornhub traffic they had from doing the same thing I did was equally disappointing (surprise).

Instead of telling me what you think x-art and nubiles are doing...how about starting your own site and then you see how it feels for you when your stuff is stolen and devalued...and then guys on GFY tell you that you that you must be "doing it wrong" or that your paysite that still generates a half million dollars a year in profit isn't as good as the generic porn on a tube site.

Trust me. You'd be furious.

There wasn't anything to split test or dial in. It was a matter of putting up some clips. They are in charge of the way the page is set up on Pornhub. I had no power over that.

And of course they spam up the pages HORRIBLY. But either way...you see the stats. It's a joke.

And as one person said...Maybe they are seeing my watermark and then joining!

Problem with that theory is...they were SEARCHING for Claudia Marie to find the vids in the first place! I have already branded that site beyond anything that the dumbasses at Pornhub can do. Those 5 million views represent 5 million people searching for "Claudia Marie" and finding a free video to watch.

Damn...not speaking directly to or at you...but I'm just amazed at the amount of people who can't see or don't want to see that giving your product away makes it worthless. And NO, I'm not talking about "samples". I'm talking about entire members areas ripped.

The entire world and every big business disagrees with you. Every business is giving something away free (even the actual product) in order to lure sales. You'd have to be blind to not see this everywhere in life. Why are they doing this if it isn't working? Hmm? Seems like it is the only thing working, at least at this point in time. Is it a model that won't work forever? Probably. Seems like it is the only thing working, at least at this point in time.
Shit you got me man, I really rely on my sig to make a living. :Oh crap
Actually I can't remember what the hell I was looking at yesterday when I saw 1:128, I think that was the overall ratio for a month or all time, but here is what it actually was for yesterday.
http://i.imgur.com/nI34J.gif


And the overall for the last 30 days, 5.79 CTR (orange stuff is me searching through stats in Chrome)
http://i.imgur.com/Uih7z.gif

Traffic from a tube with 30+ minute amateur videos, legal AFAIK? Man tubes don't convert. :(



Robbie: take your videos and advertising to a handful of small targeted tubes with 10,000-200,000 daily, and you will most definitely see sales and great ratios. I have no idea why anyone would advertise on sites like pornhub..

Jakez...what site is that? Some statistics from some programs are skewed. For instance on AEBN my stats show me at 1:1 !!! And yeah I make great money with AEBN...but I damn sure know that isn't accurate. heh-heh

And my Streamray cam stats show me at 1:2 Again...that is in no way accurate.

Is that a paysite you are promoting? Or cams and dating? Cause that makes a big difference these days with paysite sales destroyed by piracy

My theory:
All the people that visit the biggest tubes like Pornhub have no intentions on paying for porn, they goto these sites because the selection is so vast they could never run out of wank material. Yes these sites are growing and growing and hurting the industry badly, but these people are mostly the types that would never pay for porn even if tubes didn't exist. Do potential sales become frequent visitors of the big tubes and never end up buying anything? Of course, that's very unfortunate but what are we going to do?

Meanwhile the types more likely to pay for porn are more detailed in what they want, we all know this, THEY ARE INTERESTED IN QUALITY NOT QUANTITY, so they will visit a smaller tube more targeted in the niche they like. Hopefully they will click an ad seeking even better quality by joining a paysite.

It makes sense if you think about it, people visiting pornhub never had any intention on joining a paysite, probably why you don't see them on there, people on the smaller tubes at least will consider it.


People who promote the same program should know who it is. It's paysites. I've never promoted dating or cams before. The stats are most definitely accurate. Does all my traffic convert that nicely? I wish, still well under 1:1000 overall though.

Like I said, take your videos and advertising to a handful of small targeted tubes with 10,000-200,000 daily, and you will most definitely see sales and great ratios. I have no idea why anyone would advertise on sites like pornhub..

I've seen a few folks with that theory that the people on tubes like Pornhub would never buy a membership even if piracy wasn't going on like it is.

I disagree with that strongly. Not every last one of them would buy a membership of course...because the majority of them are probably 15 years old.

But the ones who have credit cards WERE our customers and then it was up to clever marketing to entice them to buy (just like any other business).
And the 15 year olds who are now at Pornhub...well, they used to be at our TGP's and when they got old enough to finally have a credit card they were damn tired of a few pics and 15 second shitty clips and were ready to get behind the velvet rope and buy a premium membership.

That's how free sites USED to market. And it was so damn successful it was ridiculous. But now those 15 years olds are being trained to never join. :(

But back to your statement on people who would "never buy".

I have to say that my stats and bank account since the mid-1990's doesn't bear that out. A LOT of people were buying.

And it's so bad now that when I tell people I am in the porn business they invariably say: "I didn't know people still PAID for that"

Damn that pisses me off when they say that! lol

I agree 100% with all your statements.

The only argument I'm trying to make is that it is possible to run a tube giving away 10-50 minute videos and still see great conversions and CTR.

I believe you are right about that. Especially if it's a great niche and not over-saturated on the bigger tubes and torrents.

Sucks being an affiliate these days though for sure. I promote over 400 programs on my network of sites...and I used to make sales with all of them as recently as 2008.
But now? About a half dozen of them still get sales...and it doesn't matter how creative I get or how much of push I give something...they just don't work anymore because their content is everywhere for free. :(

I never in my life bought a membership to a porn site. Not 10 years ago not now so the tubes haven't affected my paysite joining habits at all. This is not a question to ask on a webmaster forum where most can get a free pass anyway.

No, period.

People like FRIS (Chris) will tell you YES THEY DO, because he builds and sells them to suckers for 10k...

Interesting readings, must say.. :rasta

i don't really agree with you there... i never yet got 1 drop free fuel when filled up my car, or a free car when i went to a dealership. :winkwink:

anyway we've always had TGP's .. isn't that free porn we're giving away ?

your free sites suck bro. you are living in the past. study how people are driving sales sites now instead of whining about 2001.

Dude...my sites "suck" because I only give out promo material instead of FULL MOVIES.

And I'm not "whining"...I'm telling it like it is. As far as "studying" how people are "driving sales" ? Give me a break

My affiliate program and EVERY other affiliate program are making 60 to 80 percent sales off of type ins these days. Viral marketing is what makes me my money on Claudia-Marie.Com

My old affiliates that were sending 30 to 40 sales a day are now lucky to send that many in 6 months because they don't have any traffic left.

They are all in the same boat as I am...you can't beat FREE. My "freesites that suck" are more successful than you and most every affiliate in the adult industry even now...and I'm making about 1/4th of what I used to.

Trust me...I ain't living in the past. Your keen analysis of my sites is bullshit. Grampland.Com is/was the first TGP/Blog/Tube hybrid site in the world. I'm always on top of shit and I always build my shit by hand. Marketing is how I've made my money all these years.

It's just ridiculous to keep hearing people tell me that I'm "living in the past" or don't know what I'm doing. I'm really good at what I do. And I send PLENTY of traffic to tours of paysites every hour on the hour. It's not my fault if the surfer goes to a paysite, sees the tour, then googles up that site and finds the whole thing for free on a torrent site is it?

Please explain to me how an affiliate is supposed to "drive sales" under those circumstances? I do my job. I get them to the site honestly and in good numbers. Neither I, nor you, nor ANYBODY can force them to take their credit card out and pay for something when they see it for free already.

Didn't you own a TGP site. Did you archive the galleries?

No wonder this business is fucked by free content. Giving porn away the way online porn does, was a crazy thing to. It was obvious it would lead to today.
The only excuse is by giving it away millions of people came the the Internet to look at porn. And maybe 1,000 bought.

No one would of come to the Internet to buy porn if it wasn't for free porn. Well how did we make a living in porn before the Internet?

Porn is one of those few products that's not a staple food, product, that will sell without a lot of marketing.

Spending the amounts online porn spends on "traffic" meant the product in the main was pretty crappy. So customers weren't that loyal to sites.

Then the system lowered the bar for entry into the porn for so many. Causing saturation of sites and free content.

And Jakez points to how it should be done, to justify how we do it. How much supplement would be sold if there were bags of it outside every house?

Amazing that someone with that level of marketing skills actually makes a living in online marketing. The bar couldn't be any lower.

But anyone who does these stats has to be pretty dumb to post them. 4 sign ups in a month. What are they paying a Whale like you and is that the best example you have?

http://i.imgur.com/nI34J.gif

Can't even put it on his own site. http://imgur.com/ :1orglaugh :1orglaugh :1orglaugh

Check my signature to see what people buying porn can pay to produce. Paysites needs 1,000s of guys like you to pay the server bill.

Still own and run several successful tgp's Paul. Not much traffic left on them, but they make really good sales and money with some paysites who have begun protecting their content (finally). And of course I have archives for the galleries. It adds to pages being indexed in Search Engines and bringing in sales from old galleries.

I know you won't listen to me... but please believe me that there is a HUGE difference between me running hosted galleries given to me by paysites...and tube sites running stolen full scenes.

I made sales to paysites vs. illegit tubes devaluing the entire scene to get a pre-paid ad spot for dating or cams.

You can keep trying to equate the millions of dollars of paysite sales I made with my tgp's to tube sites stealing and removing watermarks in a deliberate maneuver to NOT sell a paysite in favor of their pre-paid spots...but it's not the same thing no matter how many times you try to say it is.

So you were giving away free content. :Oh crap

The problem with so many online guys is they have very low targets and expectatios.

Jake is whooping that he sold to 1 in 98 people looking at porn. He ignores all the people that looked and didn't bother to click on his banner of link. but that would make his argument less valid.

You think that giving away 100,000s of galleries is right because 1 in ??? bought a membership. None of you even think about the sales you lost. That would be too depressing. And you have no justification for it.

Yours Robbie is that the Internet bought porn to millions. Well porn was already available to millions. The difference was they were buying it and not getting it for free.

You think that making a few million dollars is great. Ignoring what you could of made by not giving it away.

Yes Tubes are worse, they are the inevitable progression down the road of giving it away for free, that you made some money at.

Yes you were running "hosted" galleries. The cost of which was in the membership.

Affiliates made far too much from the beginning, their roll should of been minimal, their pay should of been minimal. Their support should of been minimal. It wasn't and now it seems for many sites their own Tubes are cheaper.

Why support and spend a lot of money on loads of affiliates who demand everything to send surfers looking for porn? 10% rev share would of been far better. If you can't survive on 10%, that's your problem, you never created traffic. You erected a barrier between the customer and the supplier. In fact for 99% you were the supplier.

You made millions giving away free porn and now moaning someone is making more than you giving away free porn. Honestly where did you see the free porn road going to?

You should totally upload all the videos from your flagship site www.vanbabes.com to the tubes.







Oh wait.






There isn't a SINGLE FUCKING VIDEO on that site is there?

you don't make sales because you are a dribbling mentaller.

please fuck off

I know, Paul's right, everyone just stop giving away porn. Genius solution.

Fuck yeah :-)

Can you imagine the earnings if we could? Would awesome. Maybe something will be done to put all porn inside the members area. Like an new law. Doubt if the industry has the balls to do it.

Actually the dumb fucks who came up with the idea in the beginning are the ones to blame. Like sheep to the slaughter everyone followed. Whooping for joy that 100 were consuming and 1 was buying.

It's probably too late without a major change in the business. The consumer is now fully conditioned to not paying for porn. Well 99.99% of them are.

So much for online marketing geniuses.

Adam, have you noticed no one has answered this.

State secret or ashamed?

All I know was that the ratios on AEBN and on sausages Tube years ago, were fucking awful. It was traffic from the Tube to the tour, the surfer clicked back the moment they saw it was a paysite. They wanted to see more, but weren't going to pay for it.

The women at AEBN came over strong with me for posting the ratios years ago and said they would take all my clips off. I told them to go right ahead. AEBN had no bargaining power.

Damian. Adam has a paysite, can you give us a link to yours please.

I'd say that it isn't any different than tubes #'s... But then I have always run what theHun.net would consider a sub-par TGP and tube network...

The only way for honest tubes to make money out of paysite sales is to only promote prgorams who actively protect their content, and the only way you'll find out if they genuinely protect it well is to search for that programs content yourself, if a webmaster can't find it then there's a good chance the surfer won't, trebling your chances of sales.

wrong example :2 cents:

Oh and specially for Paul: FreeOnes.com 482,588 Sites (links) listed as of today :(

Yes tube traffic is surprisingly good for paysites (I mean traffic coming from a banner that is under the clip featuring this paysite's stuff, not from a random ad spot), but CTRs are low (0.3-0.5%), spots are limited and there's only a handful of major tubes that hold onto 80% of traffic. Because of that tubes aren't a viable replacement for an army of affiliates of the past.

Good tube ratios for some paysites is not an argument in their favor, as many posters portray them tubes in this thread as nearly saviors of our industry. That's far from truth. Yes ratios can be good but there isn't enough traffic at tubes to support our industry's ecosystem as it was in the past.

It doesn't even matter that much if a tube is legit or not - they all have low CTRs. Average TGP gallery of the past had about 3% CTR, and an average tube page of nowadays about 0.3%, that's 10 times less traffic going back to paysites, meaning less income for everybody, and what's more important less money going back into new production that fuels the entire system.

An average affiliate would contribute to the problem, by adding more and more links to many either relevant or irrelevant products to monetize their traffic better. Following strict TGP rules of the past, affiliates could have only 1 banner on a gallery, and that was of a paysite. FHGs provided by sponsors of course didnt have any AFF and LJ banners at them. Those two were the main source of promotion and 100% of the traffic went back to paysites. But nowadays, with more and more promotion going under direct control of affiliates (and that includes tubes, no matter legit or not), most galleries or tube pages are heavily spammed with dating, cams, pills, traffic brokers links and ad network banners, meaning only a fraction of traffic generated by paysite's content is going back to this paysite. The rest is for parasites.

I wouldn't blame affiliates because it's natural for people to search for more opportunities, but by doing so they contribute to their own demise, by undermining the very reason of their existence. The reason why small affiliate still exists is that there are still paysites that update, provide promo materials and keep their stuff off major illegal tubes - which results in affiliates having something fresh and different from what major tubes post, and thus still clinging to some traffic. But by not feeding your partner paysites well with traffic, you're shooting yourself in the foot. When those updates will stop you'll no longer be able to offer your surfers something different from what they can get and major tubes, and most of your traffic will naturally flock to xvideos and xhamster.

I wouldn't even go into the piracy factor, which is indeed an even bigger problem. I'm merely pointing out the fact that just a natural shift in advertising priorities that is happening right now in the remaining legit part of our joke of an "industry" is enough to cripple our ecosystem beyond repair. My estimation is that when the shift is finally over, there will be about 10 times less traffic going back to paysites than it was in pre tube era. Go figure.

Check Alexa data for most programs, you'll see that their traffic is on steady decline for the past 2 years. My prediction is that if the current trends will not reverse, our industry will desintegrate in about 2 years from now. About 80% of programs that still update will stop posting new materials, with them about 80% of current affiliates disappear. Programs that still update will rely more on brand loyalty and member retention, rather than affiliate traffic.

I disagree with what Robbie said in some minor details, but big picture wise, he's 100% correct. Our industry is speeding full throttle to it's own demise because of piracy and this new shift in advertising priorities pushed by sales managers from ad network etc. If you're not seeing it, your blind. Tube traffic, however good, isn't going to save anybody, there's simply not enough of it.

Imagine if you can all free porn disappearing tomorrow. Would this harm sales or greatly increase them?

The only reason it doesn't happen is the idiots who think giving it away for free in the quantities we do. Actually produces sales.

The most obvious illustration of that is Agent trying to insult me and pointing out the time when porn mags were in plastic bags.

If all the sites giving it away only had a link, sales would sky rocket. Robbie instead of boasting he made a few million would be boasting he made 10s of millions and sites closing would be expanding.

If an industry ever committed suicide it was the online porn industry.

Go try to convince us giving away free porn in the quantities we do, make sales better. I would love to hear the way it would work.

Youtube worked like a cashcow for me. Adulttubes have also generated some sales but faaar from the result I had with Youtube.

I wish free porn would go away so those that bash it could get a taste of what would happen if the mass attraction was gone with all the competition around and a few major players already here to suck up the volume.

fire up the betamax we're going back to 1985!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No let's just go back to the days before idiots like you thought giving the product away in great quantities, was the way to sell it.

The lunatics took over the asylum.

Post stupid quotes and sill pictures as obviously you're too stupid to get involved in this debate. It's above your pay scale. :1orglaugh

if i put a plastic bag over my computer screen will it stop the flow of free porn and return sales to how they were during the first world war?

I remember the days when people traded tapes, recorded them and gave them friends or when you could buy a 100 tapes for 1 penny, or when you could go get free previews of new movies, or when you could 'trade' porn legally in shops, oh the days of nothing for free, nothing super cheap... it's all gone.

Can you imagine the earnings if watching porn became mandatory?

Paul. I don't run paysites. Thought you knew that?

Anyway, glad to see you've admitted lying about having me on ignore. I'll add it to the list. Nice to see you again. And your awesome ideas.

I make blogs and concentrate on SE traffic, still works for me. If I make a tube I do one kinda like a blog anyway with good unique text and only small vid clips. If the content is good enough and you niche It they will buy.

could you imagine the sales if the navy seals took out the tube sites and obama passed a law that all porn sites had to buy content from paul markham's content store?

Can it bring in a few sales, sure.

Is it worth decimating the entire industry and your own business for those couple of sales? No fucking way.

Both myself and all of my male friends (8 of them I discussed this with) used to be porn consumers. We've discussed this free porn issue in detail as I've tried to understand their brains, to maybe better my business. EVERY ONE OF US no longer pays for porn and instead watches it for free on tube sites. However, some of us do pay for live cam shows. But recorded porn, nope. Have not had to in years. That is 8 out of 8 guys who were at one time porn consumers.

While some of you may think you're doing well with them and getting some sales, what you are losing is 10 fold. Maybe more.

1. I could not have made anywhere near that much without hosted galleries and promotional material Paul. As an affiliate I had to have a traffic draw. My traffic draw was using promotional materials provided to me by the paysites. Those paysites included HUSTLER (since you like to bring up the old magazine companies). I still get a check every month from LFP Inc.

2. No I did not make millions "giving away free porn". I made millions providing a SAMPLE of scenes that were provided to me legally to PROMOTE the site that the scene came from.
Piracy STEALS content and deliberately tries to remove any mention of the site it is stolen from in order to sell non-porn related items like dating and cams.

Don't know why you can't see that.

Just made another tube sale, wheeyy!

Robbie:

I am currently spending thousands on an ad for several of the biggest tube sites. Guess WHAT? 7k+ uniques from the ad (killer CTR, that ad) and 0 join form hits. Hahaha! You read that right: ZERO. So I am taking a bath on my ad buy BUT I decided to do it for the following reasons:

My site ErosExotica DOES "kill" with tube traffic; ppl watch a clip and WHAMMO! Mad sales. So.....

Let's try actually ADVERTISING on the tubes! yay! Right? WRONG. Zero sales from the ad in four days. ZERO. Ad runs another ten days so will let you know if things pick up but I'm not counting on it.

I'm sending clicks to my biggest and best paysite, the one that is making me and my partners rich, and I can't get a SINGLE JOIN FORM HIT? Wow. Robbie is, therefore, correct.

Perhaps I need to design a better landing page that works better for banner ads (and I'm working on that now) but I doubt that will help. Sure, ppl watch a video then buy but apparently thousands and thousands of ppl can click an ad and....not even consider buying. Absolutely wild but is it shocking? No.

i give myself credit for even attempting such lunacy and have learned (and paid for) an invaluable lesson: spend your dough building your OWN traffic sources.

Buying random banner spots at tubes for paysites will only work if you're selling some sick or very extreme shit. I'm pretty sure that is the reason why brazzers cut their flash banners promo vids with the most extreme action were surfers see violence and humiliation of women - that's about the only thing that may entice them to join. I do not think they're joining brazzers in droves though, most likely that's a numbers game for them, branding and eliminating of competition.

And even with the extreme and unusual stuff, you only have 2-3 months until surfers get used to the idea of your site and no longer join in any substantial numbers to justify your banner spot price. At least I haven't seen any paysite that lasted more than 3 months advertising at tubes - aside from brazzers/mofos of course, but they're the whole different story.

At least you're trying and will know for yourself if it works for your content or not.

Please let us know what the end result is when you're finished with the ads. I know a few guys claim to do well from tube traffic with certain types of content, but they can probably be counted on one hand. I've also heard of a group of African prostitutes who they think have built some resistance to HIV and for some reason are not catching it even though they are having unprotected sex with some HIV+ customers.

It's a crazy world.

Haha! Will do! Maybe a paysite devoted to those African prostitutes would sell.....nah.

I just tested the Join pages for the ad spot, everything's working. LOL Great - I mean, oh shit.

Here's the Tour:

http://www.erosexotica.com/ad/index1.html

The ONLY "paysite" that I've seen, after clicking/refreshing pages on the 5 biggest tubes literally hundreds of times over the past few days, is an EXGF site. Great, just great. the ONLY paysite is a fucking ex-girlfriend site. OMG.

The above tour, BTW, is the landing page that does great with tube traffic. No shit.

(this site will be added to my AP in about 2 weeks, announcement forthcoming)

The $226 you made, did having those limited clips on Pornhub take money out of your pocket? If the answer is no, then the tubes made you money... not a lot, but it still made you money you wouldn't have made over that time period.

I mean no offence to you as I respect your history in this industry, but if you can pull $250 a week from Pornhub and it doesn't affect your sales elsewhere, then why would you not take that? Unless it is having a huge effect across your other sales then being on there is worthwhile. If you put the video up and you all of a sudden dropped 20% of your daily sales then its hurting you and you stop doing it, but if its sales outwith your reach and not affecting your day to day sales then you just found a new money maker.

That is how I look at it anyway.

But look at it this way...

Imagine how many guys didn't join because they could just rub one off right there to those full scene clips?

I'd guess there is a reason the tubes are running mostly penis pills and cam site ads on their site.

It wasn't for a week. That's the TOTAL for 8 months. And 5 million hits on the vids from people SEARCHING for Claudia-Marie :(