200 - word up to my monkeys aunt.

Kiko, until you made the comment about how all the women in this business won't open their mouth and speak up, this was neither here nor there to me. But you made a general comment that is not right and you know it.

Now you've backed off your original argument and say its just the models that get trashed. But that's not true either... I know alot of girls on that side of the camera -- like Kayla for instance -- and have nothing but liking and respect for them -- as more people than I think you realize feel about them.

You attacked Easton etc without any provocation that was equal to the vehemence you showed -- which has nothing to do with who is a girl here, who is a model here, or anything else other than a near case of bad manners.

I am not 'lending my name to give credibility' to them or anyone else -- at least one person, female, in that thread was even more out of line and should have kept her mouth shut as well.
These things get so blown out of proportion its crazy, and this one seems to be no exception.

You know what? I TRY to be neutral a LOT of the time, but now...I change my mind. Why is it, because I do not want to take sides in an argument that does not directly affect me, and I see valid points made by BOTH sides, that I am suddenly a vapid bimbo? I AM intelligent. I see the positives EACH side has raised. Morals are a VERY subjective issue. Not black, not white, but varying shades of grey. I am not an idiot. I am not vacant headed.

I wonder now, if you just like stirring the shit SO much and are SO full of yourself that the minute you see the debate calm, you must post a lengthy reply that is sure to get it going again...

Thanks, KimmyKim...I ENJOY what I do, I have never felt degraded or adused even though I have some WAY hardcore stuff on my site...why is that? Because *I* decided what I will and will not do...just like every OTHER model out there!

Kiko, I do not have someone pulling my strings <i>forcing me</i> to be portrayed in ways I do not want to be portrayed. As a 'model' (not my favorite term to describe myself, but going with the flow), I dictate what I will and will not take part of in a photo shoot or video. It might not be your thing, it does not HAVE to be. I stand by my earlier comment, you should have emailed Easton your "No thank you" not attacked him in a public forum.

KimmyKim...see you in Florida? :)

Last time I checked white people are "colored" as well.... I guess technically its a tint, but so is black. :Graucho

I think that maybe what Kiko meant by saying women do not speak up was women don't speak up when the bashing starts in flavor of the person being slammed ..It's kind of a band wagon against one person...

It happens on alot of boards with women or men...


:2 cents: :2 cents:

It was still a gross generalization. I have spoken up MANY a time...and have a few peeps on this board that bash me every chance they get BECAUSE of it...

Ya know julene, that doesn't fly in my plane either. I've gotten just as good as I've given when it comes to board wars, and when someone stoops to a ridiculously personal level -- which I'd bet has happened to me more than anyone else in this business over the years, you don't hear me crying the girl card or claiming that just because someone took a shot at me that they were doing it because I am female.

If I have a reason to comment, and yes, sometimes it is out of sheer boredom, then I say what I have to say and if someone jumps me for it, such is life.



Kayla -- http://thephoenixforum.com -- your ass better be here!!!

I hear ya...:)

It's easy to misunderstand stuff on the internet..I guess that must be why the internet is so mysterious and maybe the reason why so many people like it.. They can have a fantasy about HOW they assume someone really is... hehehehe

:uhoh

yes.

more physcial threats please.

THAT is the problem, And when you meet them at the show they cant even look at you in the eye. Everyone is a Hot-Shot behind the pc. But let me tell you when you meet these people in person it's a whole new Ora :) Unreal

You're still a pussy for not going shooting with me...AGAIN:Graucho

:ak47:

Interesting. Please point out to me where I said "all the women in this business won't open their mouth". Attributing fictional comments to your adversary in order to support your premise is an interesting debate technique, unfortunately it's a little hard to implement in a threaded online forum.

I had ample provocation, I feel and still feel that what his company does is bad for my business. Just like companies with predatory billing practices are attacked for hurting other online businesses. His particular niche has a direct and negative effect on the industry.

I don't believe I have ever seen you speak out on the issue of model treatment, of voice the slightest objection to the way they are spoken of on this board. You have a lot of posts though, no doubt I just missed it.

Now you're simply reaching. My original argument remains valid and intact. I took the opportunity to expand on it. You're smart enough to do better then this.

Kimmy, I understand that you've had a somewhat stormy history on the boards. If your business goals require that you reingratiate yourself with the board members by shifting the attention of your detractors away from yourself and onto someone new- then you might want to be a little more subtle about it.

First off, I've spent a lot of time at adult conventions and know what kind of people adult webmasters are. You aren't pimps, you aren't Mac Daddies or hardcore- the few that are hardcore are low key about it because they don't have anything to prove. Most of you are computer guys or art school dropouts- most very nice in real life. The guys who fancy themselves pimps are the same Melvins trying to learn Klingon for the next Star Trek convention.

Nothing gets "wuss" branded on your ass faster then forum tough talk. All this "dumb sluts, fuck her, fuck this, I'll fuck her up" is because online is the only place in your life you can talk like that without spending the following hour crawling around on the floor with a paper cup looking for your teeth. Guys tough enough to get away with saying that in real life long since got over the novelty and realized that it's not a terribly useful habit. Get over it, yes this is the Internet. Yes, while safely behind your computer you can talk like Huggy Bear. When the novelty wears off start thinking about whether it's good for business.

In any event, back to the subject at hand. I wrote this with the intention of posting it in the thread this all originated in. I was locked out of the thread and didn't really think most of the posters on GFY would be very receptive to the message. But might as well waste it on them rather then just waste it and let it go unread.

I don't buy most of the desensitization argument (although being publicly threatened by the owner of one of these sites makes you wonder). I think they are repugnant but I also I think there is definitely a place for fish hooking, Max Hardcore and other forms of consensual degradation in the adult industry.

My argument is that the adult industry as a whole should not been seen as embracing it and should make ever effort to distance itself. Couple sites and independent models/amateurs are effectively the hard shell for our industry- they are perfect camera fodder for the TV news magazines and put the best face on our industry. But if they are the hard shell then Max Hardcore and others specializing in degradation are the soft underbelly, they leave us vulnerable to conservative attack and to legislation. They have their place as does everything that is legal and consensual, but whether the industry should be seen as holding them up as "one of us" is another matter.

We have seen this pattern played out many, many times. Back in the day people were not quite as conscience as they could have been about what sites they linked to. KP used to show up in all sorts of places you'd NEVER see it now. What happened? The hammer came down on everyone. The media uses pornography as a synonym for child pornography half the time and in the minds of a lot of people the two are still interrelated.

There used to be a lot more sites playing fast and lose with credit cards. They were "our guys" they made lots of money, and we all got burned.

When you look at recent media coverage of the adult industry there has been a heavy lean towards "the victims". They trot some sad eyed 19 year old out to cry in front of the camera for a few minutes and fill in the rest with fictional statistics.

Now Max Hardcore style, and other consensual degrading content is LEGAL, and I would defend with my denying breath the legality of producing it. But the Adult industry makes for good press- it's got money, Internet and sex. Gives them a chance to show a little flesh in the teaser. Last year when they were talking about Danni etc. that was great. But now they are talking about Max Hardcore, Bum Fights, "I tricked the dumb bitch" sites and other parts of the "reality" niche. Bum Fights wasn't even porn but we were marketing it so we took the hit. They made lots of money sure, didn't do the reputation of our industry much good. They make the money but we all end up footing the bill in the end.

There's a huge difference between defending the legality of these sites, and supporting the type of content or how it is produced. Only an idiot would directly support them or be comfortable with them being held up as representatives of the industry- and increasingly they are. They are the absolutely perfect bait for right wing conservatives- they could not ask for anything better.

There has been a definite growth in "reality" sites with a misogynist slant to them, as the market has gotten more competitive the content has gotten increasingly extreme. Are any of you deluded enough to think that this will go unnoticed and that we will not all eventually pay the piper? Dr. Koop, the former surgeon general (and normally a very bright guy) is already speaking out against the industry for it's treatment of talent. We live in one of the most conservative first world counties. We don't even let 19 year old girls drink, you fishhook one while coming on her face and screaming at her that she's a dumb bitch then you are just asking for the Feds to hand you your ass. If as an industry, you stand up and say "These guys are one of us, it's legal and it makes money so it's okay" then you are just handing them all of our asses.

Get smart guys, as an industry we've all paid too many times for other peoples bad habits. If you want to say "Yeah! Those dumb bitches deserve it" go for it. Just don't be crying all over the boards when the prominence of the niche and the industry support it gets burns us all.

No ........ even in the members area ............ they are still NON NUDE and totally legal !

So now you are suggesting that instead of working as a whole to overcome a stigma placed on the Porn Industry we should instead work at marketing a palatable version of Porn to placate the North American public?

And I suppose in other rights movements such as Women's rights and minority group rights those people who were protesting and doing what they believed in should have said "I don't like those people over there because they make me look bad - lets dump their asses."

Your theory in this matter is actually backwards as its always the radical fringe elements in a marginalized group that serve to make changes to the publics perception towards the majority of that marginalized group. Even if the bulk of the marginalized group despises those fringe Elements. For example, Malcolm X was not as popular in his time as he is now. And before anyone puts words in my mouth, I am not comparing ANYONE in the Porn business to Malcolm X or suggesting what he was doing is as important as the issues presented here.

You have to do what you feel is morally right - I would never suggest otherwise. But you have to allow other people the freedom to do what they want, even if you don't feel its morally acceptable to your standards - as long as its legal. The law is supposed to represent the communities standards as a whole. That's how our supposed democratic society works. If it didn't you would be in the same boat as everyone else in this industry - fucked by the right wing conservatives who are in power.

And never mind that - its time for American legislators to realize that by not working with the industry proactively and positively they are only serving to push things offshore where there are even less controls to prevent the real moral outrages. Maybe they could do more to help out in countries where its legal to produce CP instead of the "as long as its not in my backyard" approach they have now. The Internet is global and its not going anywhere.

Sweet, given the garbage your company produces it's not exactly a big shock that you are scared shitless of losing the shield of adult industry support. On top of that you're in Canada- while you have local troubles you're unlikely to be affected by the legislation your content niche is likely to provoke in the US.

If you check your rolodex "[email protected]" is the usual email address for you to send vague threatening letters to conspicuously CC'd to your attorney.

http://www.joinrightnow.com/images/a..._hook/self.jpg

What does this guy know about fish-hooking ? You can definitely see that he has no clue or has any experience with fish-hooking !

Models are not forced into doing anything............ in fact there are a lot of models that practice self fish-hooking !

I am sure a lot of people are not searching for the newest niche like we are and it will take years for others to know that fish-hooking is loved and practiced by many behind closed doors. Only until now can people be honest and come forward and say
" I love Fish-Hooking "

fish hook is just a mtv ripoff.... i believe its from jackass

Thanks for the Intelligent and well thought out response Kiko. I could have predicted you would defend yourself by slamming the company I work for. You can do better then that....I have seen you write much more educated responses.

And here is a news flash: No one here is scared shitless.

However you seem to be.

I was just going to post something in a similar vein, but let me say that no matter what the industry does, it will never placate the anti-porn nuts. To them, the husband & wife amateur site is just as destructive to soceity as Max Hardcore.

I grew up in the evangelical churches which fuel the right wing movement in the United States, and believe me, these fuckers don't give a damn whether you strip, produce fishhook porn, or just do softcore. To them you are destroying the moral fiber of society, enslaving people to porn addiction, causing child abuse and rape, and every other evil you can think of. They, of course, are the knights in shining armor whose self appointed job it is to rid American society of these evils.

I don't disagree with all of Kiko's points, but this industry is not going to live or die on Max Hardcore or Easton's stuff. If they come after Max, the Sweets, and Easton, you and I won't be far behind. To them we're all the same.

the funny thing is the obsenity busts have come in canada. And you guys sat on your high horse and said we would all be busted because of bush.

I believe you are wrong..........anyway it just goes to show, Fish-hooking is in the main stream as well as in adult entertainment !

I agree, GutterBoy...my (s)mother and step-father are ministers in North Carolina, she called me excited to say that she and her church were going to try to "Rid the Internet of porn!"
My (s)mothers filters are set SOOO tight, that from her machine, you cannot even get to Yahoo. (She found their iFriends banners of days gone by offensive)...

Frankly, most Canadian companies have an American registered corporation as well. This has become even more of an issue with the present Visa regulations.

High horse or not, we're equally concerned in Canada about whats going on in the USA as Americans are.

hehehe.. I understand completely. The Pastor of my brothers church is currently on a moral crusade to rid supermarket checkout lines of lascivious magazines like Cosmo and Redbook. The want to force the stores to block the covers "for the childrens sake"

Its hilarious until you realize how deadly serious they are.

Fishhooking has saved my life

Our shops and kiosks sell hardcore porn vids. :)
Finland doesn't have many religous enthuasts.

Dug, "This guy" knows enough about porn to know the difference between the reality (models are paid, not forced) and the fantasy (when a male actor stands behind the model and "forces" her mouth open, holding her head in place while guy no.2 shoots his wad on her, all of them shouting such niceties as "cover the stupid bitch" etc)

It ain't rocket science Dug. What seems pretty standard to you and I as content producers is definitely NOT what average joe public perceives of such extrame content.



And allow me to introduce myself to you Dug. Name's CD Smith. Nice to meet you. Now you can refer to me as CD rather than "this guy".

Cheers.

Where's my money bitch! Do you think I let you work my corner for FREE?!?!? You best pay if you want to play, and if you want to keep that pretty smile of yours, I better have it by tonight!
:pimp

Sorry about that CD Smith or Cd as you wanted to be called.
I agree with you on but Fish-Hooking is not always fantasy. There are many people who really love this act of love and passion and it does not get the respect it deserves. A lot of people would have said anal or facial scenes are extreme content a few years ago. Today it is almost a standard in a hardcore scene!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Yep Kiko, my stormy history is what makes me, well... me.

And you the one sitting here crying like a stupid bitch.

(Oh geez, did some chick open her mouth and take a stand, that's incredible!)

I am sorry, we are still talking about fish-hooking? An act of love and passion?

Okay, I would like anyone that has not tried this on their wife yet, to do so tonight, and report back how many of their wives accepted the argument that it was an act of love and passion. :1orglaugh

Hi, I'm new to this board, and just wanted to say that I like bukakke, and fisting.

I like to be degraded, and enjoy the scat, and watersports.

Could someone please fish hook me?

Thank you!

I'm sorry here, but am I the only one that finds this fishhooking thing to be so funny it's not at all derogatory in my mind?

how, really, can anyone take it seriously?

Yes, you got smacked down and ridden around the forum like a little pony and I'm crying about it :1orglaugh

Post stands. A lot more people see what I'm talking about then want to admit it, most don't exactly covet my position at the moment so won't post that for obvious reasons. That's okay, didn't start this to make friends. We'll leave it up to the guys to do damage control and bury my posts with large images and quotes. Points made...

Are you not free to distance yourself from it? Your public posts here would suggest to me that you are, as am I. Webmasters as a whole will distance themselves from certain genres of porn by simply refusing to promote sites that contain such content.

Point: You are in porn, you are producing and promoting porn Kiko. If you have any content within your sites that depict a man cumming on a woman's face, that is enough for the conservative pro-censorship crowd to warrant you being called a promoter of female degredation. It doesn't matter to them that your model did it willingly or was well paid, they only want to remove all forms of sexual expression from the net, with the welfare of "the children" in mind of course. It's always about the children with them.

Point: Easton made you an offer. I assume it was to be polite and complimentary to you, as was the impression his original post gave me. Your refusal to accept his offer and your vilification of his company's business practices could just as easily have been handled privately, no?

Point: Well, question really..... Where do we draw the line? Where do we begin to "distance ourselves" from other genres within the industry? I say it's up to each individual webmaster as to what they want to promote. Crying out for an industry-wide movement towards separating everyone further isn't really the most productive idea I've heard lately. What about webmasters who run a plethora of sites that span across just about every porn genre there is? I myself run a straight-up model promotion site (which by the way contains quite a few portfolios of models that do nothing BUT clothed work), all the way to a few TGP's that contain and promote all manner of hardcore and fetish content. Should I be rushing to shut down half my network over this?


It has to be a personal choice for each of us. You've made your position very clear, and you've taken this opportunity to publicly state that you don't care for certain brands of porn out there. Great. Super. Others have taken the same opportunity afforded you to voice their opinions as well. Shouldn't the debate pretty much end there?

Because for me, the line that I've drawn for myself and my own sites is that I won't promote anything to do with outright rape or rape-fantasy, no CP, no beasty stuff and no scat crappola. Beyond that, I accept galleries of pretty much any sort of niche or genre. You have a right to say publicly that I'm wrong or I'm not doing enough, but I in turn have the right to say that I am NOT wrong and that you are out to lunch in your opinion of me. Correct?

It all comes down to worrying about distancing yourself..... and your own business, from whatever you want to distance yourself from. Let others worry about their own businesses and let's all get on with it.

no

4k bitch. (not you)

Always made me laugh, too. :)

Just like the fucking machine, or whatever it is, in Kiko's sig.

Not by your short little legs.

The only crying you do on this topic is when things don't go your way and you've managed to alienate a good number of people that thought you had valid points. Not because of anything you said to me, but because of your dumbass comments regarding women in this business and their actions and thoughts.

Perhaps YOU should sit down and evaluate YOUR attitude. YOU seem to be the one with a chip on your shoulder, not the rest of the girls.

HI! OMG! Are you the Kiko Wu, in NYC?
Do you remember me? We did that shoot a few years back, remember? It was the one with the 25 men gangbang and the horse! OMG! I can't believe it! I haven't seen you since then! Have you gotten treatment for your herpes yet? I have, and it has cleared up alot.

WOW! I'm so glad to see you!

KIT!
SWAK!

-Kiko_fu

then what is this?

http://www.mtv.com/sitewide/videopla...bs/&adPN=index

johnny knoxville's been fishhookin' hoes fo years... you are not the first.

And this boys and girls, is why it's called GREY matter ;)


:thumbsup Kayla

And what were here dumbass comments regarding women in this business? I've been following this and the thread on the other board for a couple of days. What she said is true. But somehow I think you know that.

Higher traffic than Asia Carrera's site?

No problem Dug.

I know full-well that there are a lot of women out there willing to do or portray just about any sort of character, from pretending to be underage to playing a rape or murder victim. The fish-hooking, and also the vids of the guy jamming his rocket down a girl's throat and choking her (whatever that niche is called), can definitely appear to average joe citizen as borderline forced sex (aka: near-rape) though. That was my original point. It's not always about what you and I as webmasters know of it or the willingness of the women involved. Some part of it has to be about what the public thinks of it. There are of course a lot of guys out there that like to watch it, but there are also a lot of other people who are judging us and our industry by it.

I'm not saying it should be illegal or anything, or that it should be removed from the net, not by a long shot. However, maybe there is room on such sites for a bit of extra language in the disclaimer about those actors being willing participants, not forced in any way? I don't know.

I guess I'm a firm believer that there is a solution to most arguments. :winkwink:

Anyway, good to make your aquaintance.

One of the best all-time posts ever.

Kiko, you should "embrace" the Sweets and the Max Hardcores. They are the frontline buffer for most of the legal assaults we will face as "pornographers". Without them "regular amateur" XXX would be considered obscene hardcore.

I did'nt say I was the first ! In fact BOBBY VITALE has been fish-hooking longer than Johnny Knoxville ! Who is Johnny Knoxville anyway ?