If I understand you this is what you are saying.

You were paid *lets say for example* $3,000.
That $3,000 came through a few lines of accounts and the originating account was fraudulent.
Paxum took back the $3,000 from your account and then took another $3,000 from your account making your account negative.

Is that correct?

Same as if a merchant refunds a customer but at the same time customer charge backs. The customer received the refund and as well received money from their bank who took it out of merchant's bank. Double dipping on the funds. Am I anywhere near close?

Well it's difficult to figure out from the transactions you've posted. But it looks like you had money come in from wo@********business.com. Paxum refunded 6879 of that back. You also had a refund back from ********@gmail.com of 5692 but then that was reversed. It's difficult to work out what all this money is and who these people are from what you tell us.

I am very, very much agree with you. I'm sorry if any webmasters will suffer in the future, so I went to GFY with my bad English and I try to tell you everything.
I know no one will help me. But you should know who is paxum.
He took fees alredy from refund who did himself. He profited from the mountain.
Be careful with this monster.

Russian webmasters already know this story:

http://www.master-x.com/forum/postings/2227813/
(No need to know the Russian language to see the red and green assessment. Paksum's representative has a very, very much red negative evaluations in this topic.)

wc@********business.com and others webmasters (B,C,D...i dont know how much) are silent because they were not punished.
I did all the pictures from my account and all transactions are duplicated in text. I hid nothing. All actions on the part of paxum not defy logic.
That You not understand paxum . I dont understand paxum too.
This paxum hides all the data on these transactions.
This paxum not respond to any of my question 50 days.
I do not know why paxum punished me, so I can not explain this to you. See pictures and draw conclusions for yourself.

Yes. Paxum took the money 2 times (January 23, 2012, and February 7, 2012).
After the second time my account was negative.
Paxum can not explain why I was punished two-fold.
I think they had a bad mood February 7, 2012

you got PAXUMED!

We in the states call that "double dipping". They took what they thought they should then took it again.

No one to blame but paxum. Why did they let this carder do a transaction in the first place? He must have been caught! I thought paxum more secured than epass?

Like a I said, THIS IS VERY ALARMING and can be happened to anyone.

STAY AWAY FROM THEM, Period!

they are only one inches away from epass, or let say epass in the making :2 cents:

That's how credit cards work, it's simply impossible to avoid 100% of fraud. I bet paypal have had this kind of things happening 1000 times more often.

But overall it's quite difficult to see just from this thread, about what all exactly happened.

I agree and cant understand why do you care about other accounts. Your problem is that *****buisness.com dont pay you back the refunded money. Whats the reason to that?

C4 ofcourse they are the only one you need to care about, where they get money from is't your problem.So please tell me whats the reason that he don't do that?

This is getting out of hand. Some points need to be clarified for everyone:

1. You received funds directly from the fraudulent account. Your little chart is cute and all, but incorrect. There is a direct link between you and the fraudulent funds. We clearly know that at the very least you have direct contact with the person who started this mess. Past this point, we will refuse to speculate, but it's clear that you provided an exchange service, otherwise you would have some recourse against your "sponsor/partner".

2. We did not charge you twice. Yes, there are 2 charges, but you clearly avoided the fact that there was a refund. Please check your account and post accurate info.

3. Your account is "prepaid", meaning that you cannot go in negative, we don't give credit. If it is showing a - sign, it's because we are missing funds. When the account will be at 0 you will be able to say that we refunded transactions. Until then, we are in the hole, so in fact we are the ones getting penalized twice : a) we are losing 6k, and b) we have to deal with the fact that you are distorting the facts and making a big deal out of the fact that we are losing and your account is okay, which you perceive as a loss for you.

4. FYI, If you buy a stolen car (without your knowledge) in Canada, it well be seized by the police AND you will have to pay it off to the bank anyway. They are different entities. The cops can't call the bank to cancel the loan. Besides, if you pay it in cash, do you really expect a refund from the police when they seize it? So before you give examples, make sure you know how it works.

This is our last reply on the subject. I will repeat once again that if you are trying to defraud Paxum we will not tolerate it, and we will not accept any fraudulent money in our system. This is to protect the integrity of the program for honest webmasters in the long term.

When? not trying to be the knife in the side but when was that refund given... I read this thread and heard nothing about a refund

I'd say this comparison is not correct.
Let's say, he came to a second hand car shop where they sold him a car. Why would he doubt in a reputable shop? Some time later he comes out in the morning and sees his car is missing, he calls the shop and they say "we took it back as it was a stolen car". Surprise!

So, as for me I see the main problem in the security of the "reputable" shop. They did not take the trouble to check where the stolen car had come from, sold it and then took it back with no refund.

Who is responsible in this case? The buyer? Or the shop whose job is to double check everything that gets in?

looks like half of the ones who are writing here are not able to read...

the guy wrote a hundred fuckin times that he had no business with carders and only received payment for his job, and what are people writing here? "you were involved in a fraudulent transaction"...

face-fucking-palm... imbicils :disgust

Ahhh, NOW I get it!

If a guy from Russia could make $300 in a hour in a legit way or make $100 in 2 hours by scamming people he would go with the second option.

I think you should read it again. He recived money from a fraudulent account, and that account holder(partner) refuse to send him back the money that he own him.

Just FYI: you are a fucking scumbag.

He can not give me back my money because he did not get money from me. Paksum took the money for someone. I do not know for whom paksum did refund. No one knows where the money went. Paxum can take money from someone and say that this was refund. Nobody can check it out.

That is correct!

Ok, did I understand that correctly? The second refund was a mistake of yours and he will get the money for that second one back, or already got it back? Is it that what you wanna say?

Because the stuff that the negative balance is Paxum's loss (like you mentioned before) was just pure BS, as this guy has a business account which he uses to pay his affiliates. And as he already said that about 60% of his affiliates get their money via Paxum he will have to cover up those 6k very soon, if you don't.

"directly from the fraudulent account" - wc@******business.com has fraudulent account? You are cheating. Many webmasters know this sponsor.

"...we will refuse to speculate, but it's clear that you provided an exchange service,..." No need to fantasize. You can view my transaction and see that I'm do not exchange money. I have a good business and I not exchange office. I got money from identical accounts always.

You can call me blind, but I see two refund on my account and I see in my balance : minus -5,691.18



I see in my balance : minus -5,691.18 , This is not Paxum's account. This is my account in Paxum

I see how it works in Paxum. You take a car and 2 times the money for it. After that, you say that you lost money.

Beautiful words , no more..... But you are hiding. So do just thieves. An honest person will not hide

Thats pretty easy for him to do, just say to his partner that he have to pay him again. For the last payment was refonded because it was scam money.

Problem solved

Need a diagram from Ruth too.

Totally lost on what's gone on and getting loster by the post.

I just moved all my money in my paxum account on to my mastercard, off to the atm..... laters! :Oh crap

I know I said I would not post in this thread anymore, but it seems that things are not crystal clear for everyone.

Regarding the issue of the refund, let's take a look at the screenshots.

In the 2nd screenshot he has a credit (money added) for $5692. (top of point 3)

(screenshot relinked below)
http://nats.enjoybucks.com/Statements_01.2012.jpg

In the 3rd screenshot he has a debit (funds deducted) for $5692.

(screenshot relinked below)
http://nats.enjoybucks.com/Statements_02.2012.jpg


It even says (reverse) so it was the opposite of a previous transaction.


Again, it's in the screenshots, and I am really looking forward to understanding how this equates to double dipping (or taking, then taking again)

But wait a minute.. that raises another point.

After we have been accused of following the money trace too far (when in fact the OP has a direct link to the fraudulent account), we are then accused of screwing the OP over by actually allowing his payments to his affiliates to go through, thereby NOT following the trace to the next level.... :error

I hope the OP doesn't have anything against paying his affiliates, because that seems to be the issue here. We seem to have screwed him by paying his affiliates!

Remember, we are holding the account, so any negative in the OP's account = loss for us. Clearly, the account will likely never be topped off and we'll have to permanently take that loss.

Conclusion: We are getting blasted for having screwed the OP by paying his affiliates out of our own pocket. :warning

As for the affiliate payments.. based on what the OP says, that must mean that 60% of them have not been paid in the last 2 months?! :helpme

I hope it's clear that the facts have been twisted, then twisted again, so the net outcome is something that looks nothing like reality. I hope we can agree to put this to rest.

To finalize this all, would be nice to hear what sponsors' email is wc@***business.com , just in order to know whom we should not get money from... :D

That account has been closed. :)

He states that was his partner, doesn't he? If so could this be some kind of communication problem in that he didn't understand that wc@******business.com was considered "Fraudulent" (if in fact that is true).

I don't think it's right of you to get in his business this much and go after him by taking jabs at him "not paying affiliates". How could he when he has no money in his Paxum account and why would he put money back in it given what is happening? Let's be fair. Sure he's saying bad things about you guys but usually people expect some degree of professionalism in response from large companies like Paxum.

I wish Daizzy or another Russian webmaster who writes English well would chime in and give us some cliff notes about this and what is being discussed at the Russian forum.

Btw for CrocMint you can tell by looking closely at the screengrabs who wc@******business.com is. I don't know if they are legit or not but I did check out their site. They have a site at the email address domain in Russian. I won't repeat it for obvious reasons but it is visible if you look closely on a good LCD.

Stop whinging and threatening to expose in webmaster forums where no one importsant gives a fuck, hire a lawyer like you would in the real world if this is legit.

I'm sorry you disagree with my response and view it as unprofessional. The fact of the matter is that I have replied several times in this thread to try to clear things up, but each time my words get twisted. The post you reference was made in order to finally clear things up and hopefully then everyone can move along understanding that nothing untoward occurred here, and Paxum is not illegally holding anyone's funds, nor do we ever deduct money randomly from people's accounts.

The OP has made various allegations in this thread, and though we've tried to keep the discussion on a general level, it has spawned various other unfounded threads, and due to past experiences people are understandably nervous about such situations. At some point we have to put an end to this, and we are doing so in a very respectful manner. We have other information regarding the OP that we would rather not divulge, and in doing so, we are taking more and more heat. However, during all this time, the OP keeps continuing to badmouth us with unfounded reasons and shaky logic.

Regarding the payment for his affiliates, I see how my comments could be interpreted as being a quip at the OP's expense, though it wasn't meant as such, and I apologize. I was simply arguing the fact that the account has been unused for the past 2 months, and if the OP had a problem, he should have said something about it earlier. Nobody can deny that it is strange that this surfaces after all this time, especially after it was discussed before.

I would rather not speculate on his motives, but it is clear that affiliate payments is not one of them, as payments should have gone out long ago.

I asked everywhere (this is seen in the tickets (see screenshot) and here on the forum) who is wc@******.business.com? Paxum took money from me but he did not say why it happened. I wrote a messages to you everywere I waited 50 days of the answer. I'm not a magician. I do not see all the transactions. If wc@******.business.com is carder let's to arrest him . He and his business work well. He does not hide for you or for me or for another people. But you will not be served on him in court. I am sure that he is not a thief. You make refund money to thief ?

You write: "As for the affiliate payments .. based on what the OP says, that must mean that 60% of them have not been paid in the last two months?!"
Yes, we have added two new systems, but many webmasters asking paxum. If we did not pay - you to read the complaint here. We pay anywhere, anytime. We care about our business. As you can see in our transactions through the payment of webmasters we paid more than 50,000 $ in paxum per month. We do not have business account now but we paid the last 2 months, we pay now and we will pay in the future, always. Everyone will forget about you, but we will pay. You makes difficulties do not for we, you make difficulties an honest webmasters difficulties. I read your words and enjoy as paxum work good. You are not to blame. I'm sorry I am blame only myself , because I trusted my money to you.
I'll be glad when all will to learn from this story. I paid for your learning! :winkwink:

Remove the minus sign in my balance. There is no one to blame. I and you was blame (you changed the system after the error - is proof of your mistakes.)
If the balance is zero there will be: you have lost 5.6k and I've lost 1.3k - It will be fair. You make guilty only me when you write in my balance -5.6k

From what I gather and understand here (the numbers are just examples):

1. You had a starting balance of, let's say $10 000, this is your own money, deposited from your bank account, we assume.

2. You got transferred $6000 from this wc@*business.com, making it a total of $16 000 in your account.

3. Now you pay your webmasters a sum of $15 000, putting your account down to $1000

4. Paxum takes money/refunds or whatever the $6000 transaction in 2. which then puts your account in negative $5000 because you have spent the "fraudulent" funds by paying out to your legit webmasters. So Paxum takes their own money and refunds and put your account into negative, because you already spent the money by paying affiliates.

5. Now your account is negative, Paxum has refunded the person who sent money in 2 and also allowed the payment to your affiliates to go through.

6. Had Paxum gone after the fraudulent funds all the way, it would have affected your affiliate who would then be piss poor mad at you for having their payment reversed. But it would have kept your account all zeroed out, only that you would still have to pay your affiliates somehow, meaning your own fresh money, to cover for those you got in 2 but was later reversed/refunded.

7. Having Ruth commenting "your little chart is cute and all" is a bit unprofessional. When handling upset customers, it's usually not a good idea to use sarcasm or try to belittle what's being said and done. Yes, it does take, sometimes, enormous amounts of time and energy but an upset customer is best handled with patience and by keeping to strict facts.

It also doesn't help when his business is attacked by insinuating that his affiliates are not getting paid or that he does not want to pay his affiliates. True, OP's language skills are definitely not the best, so it's hard to follow at all times and some might even contradict his point or last sentence which of course does not help neither his case not the ability to follow along. But to take his number, that 60% of affiliates want Paxum and then say that 60% of his affiliates has not been paid is grossly incorrect. That would mean that ALL his affiliates are getting paid EVERY pay period.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think most affiliates make enough every pay period to clear the minimum payout, so usually it takes a few months or so for the average affiliate to qualify for a payment. So most of his affiliates would not have qualified during this time, meaning, there can't be "60% not getting paid".

I will hold here.

I think OP is wrong for not understanding how a balance sheet works or cash flow management, which clearly seems to be the issue at hand here.
And
I think Paxum is wrong for allowing fraudulent funds to enter the system and to use sarcasm against the customer and bring up highly irrelevant arguments like "does not want to pay affiliates". it also doesn't help to have Paxum Support ignore him for 50 days.

When All is said and done, OP should pay off the negative balance in his Paxum account, because that negative is actually money which has gone out to his affiliates.
And
I think Paxum should apologize for getting a little heated in the arguments and for letting the customer wait 50 days.

It seems that the problem was that you trusted wc@******business.com <-- you should ask them about this because they are the ones who own your negative balance.

PaxumRuth is totally ignoring what has been said here about the fact that paxum made others pay for their security hole.

Refunding money from TS's account is Paxum's loss - this is the most important thing to explain again and again!

I think you should learn how to think.

which part of the sentence "I have not engaged in fraudulent transactions and only received payment for my work" is not fucking clear to you?? :mad:

wow, that's a mess here... tomorrow, someone finds out, that Company XYZ had some internal errors, and thus all wages to their workers are refunded and people have to starve. great logic :disgust

Use google Chrome and use the translate tool you can read it all then

Well, I guess it doesn't make a lot of sense to continue this discussion.

The OP says that neither he nor his partners/the affiliate program that sent the money in question directly dealt with carders. And he states that he never provided any exchange service.

Ruth claims he did provide an exchange service and directly received money from a fraudulent account.

So we have one person's word against another's and since there is no evidence for the one or the other in the provided screenshots I'd say... we gotta move on :pimp

:thumbsup

The part that says he is direct connected to fraudlent account( his partner) and that account are closed now.

B.T.W the problem is that he DON'T received any money for his work only scam money.
Moron

Imagine, you have family, kids, a hundred bills to pay and so on. and you work at a company, get your pay and everything is cool.

Suddenly, one day, someone finds out, that your boss used drug money to pay you for your honest work, from which you even paid taxes. consequence - you are taken your money away, because this money was made through drug trade in an illegal way. wife and children have nothing to eat, you have no money, bills cannot be paid, and you (not your boss or his criminal partners - you!) are made responsible for all this shit. would you really swallow that shit down?

No you would not. you would not give a fuck at all, where the money came from, how many people had to starve for it and what crimes were commited while laundring this money clean. Because you did your honest job and you want to be paid for it - full stop. No "what if" or "but there is a problem" and someone else's problems, e.g. that this crime was not figured out before is actually not your problem, is it? But you would be punished for something you have never done. Only because you were at the bottom of a criminal scheme without knowing and thus you have to pay for the sins of the people above you. Cool thing, huh?

What you advise is to endure this injustice. This is more than absurd imho, and the reasonable half of this thread will agree upon that.

Make up your mind, lads.

PS: If one day you wake up with a gigantic minus on your bank account and understand, that your ass has been fucked, then go to the bank in order to report that you were the victim of a fraud, and only hear a "I'm sorry Sir, but your money is gone and we can't do shit", then you will remember this thread, my words and only then you will probably understand what it's like when you're robbed and can't do anything the legal way to get your money back. Good night though. Watch your pockets, everyone.

Eastern European webmasters always get ripped off.

But he said they took out twice. I suppose the first was because "fraud" and reversed the deposit, but then they deducted again. So he started with say 0 dollars... received 5K and now has a balance of minus 5K for a difference of 10K to him.

So I guess the second dip was Paxum paying his affiliates?? Why would they do that? But then the lingering question... when was the refund given?

So many questions and a lot does not make sense... oh well. Enjoy your saturdays :thumbsup

Some people need to look at the transactiona posted. He received money from the closed account, which was refunded, he also received some sort of refund from another account which was then reversed. Paxum didn't take the same money twice, it was different amounts for different transactions. He started out with zero, he paid out to his affiliates, now he is that amount in the red.

Hey can you sell me some hard links, I will pay with a stolen cc so they will probably do a charge back. But WTF shit happens not my problem that Visa take your money, blame them not me because I already paid you. You can always start a thread on GFY about that fucking Visa company that take your money.
That's okay for you?

Fuck Eastern Europeans. Bunch of fucking scammers. 99% of all Interner scams happen in Russian. Fuck this guy and his negative balance.

That scenario happens all of the time. There are tons of ponzi schemes being exposed these days and investors who didn't know are left on the hook through clawbacks. That one guy who made a ton of money off Bernie Madoff, who later died in his swimming pool... His estate had to pay back billions to provide restitution to smaller investors.