What I have been waiting to see are people other than the usual suspects who have spent the last year praising Manwin commenting in the thread and stating that they tried it and are now buying another luxury car or mansion based on what they are seeing. That just hasn't happened yet.

Endorsements from the usual suspects don't mean much to me because I don't see them as objective. Likewise endorsements from the bros mean little to me because we all know how there is this constant game of "I scratch your back, you scratch mine, bro" or "He's a top notch standup guy". For the last ten years this game has been used to feed one piece of bullshit after another to the industry and I think it's normal to get very skeptical whenever one sees it in play.

Take Ruseful's stats. We were all blown away by them. But then it comes out that he's pretty much like an employee of ThePornTubeGuy and together they have basically tagged teamed the topic into one big self promotion to content owners. I'm not saying he's dishonest but how stupid are we here? Whether he is sincere or not it just isn't an objective test.

I'm just a regular affiliate and blogger mostly so I'd be willing to test it out :winkwink:

The only problem is that every time that I try to sign up to post videos on a decent to huge tube site I either get rejected or put on some type of blogging project instead. So, with affiliate promo tools is it possible to be accepted to submit to well known tubes? I can edit the videos, too, if my sponsors allow me to.

I do not see very many program owners supporting tubes in this thread...but I see a lot complaining...

Logic says that a site like orgasm.xxx, that supposedly gets 120 sign ups/day only from tube traffic, is not hard to make, it has mediocre quality girls, good camera but not great, average website, a super competitive/saturated niche like lesbians and teens. The whole site screams "nothing special" but it gets 120 sign ups per day just form tubes? No disrespect to the site owner, kudos to him, I have no website and I am nobody to judge just stating the obvious BUT:

why do tubes not get more support in this thread from program owners who are clearly capable of producing the same type of quality as orgasm.xxx?

Your main page crakcontent.com shows exactly that there is no place for AFFILIATES in this business...

dude.. 90% of people in this forum are affiliates, so where is the link for affiliates in your site?

You only have place for PROGRAM OWNERS and MODELS...?

How are we Affiliates supposed to survive if you give us no chance in your HUGE NETWORK?

You only give chances for SPONSORS and CAM MODELS?

That is the problem. MODELS have replaced affiliates, and most affiliates are either broken or quit to work on mcdonalds, in case they didn't figure how to survive. But still.. Surviving is not the same as working like 5 years ago.

Affiliates are effectively sales people. What they have to offer is time and traffic.
This has been valuable to paysite owners because a) everyone wants traffic, b) the time, for example to submit galleries to thousands of traffic sources just was just not time efficient for a program or even possible.

If affiliates have lost traffic to a handful of tubes, meaning they cant offer the traffic anymore, and as the traffic belongs to a much smaller group now, which means that the paysite owner will have the time to reach the same audience, without giving 50% of the profit to a middle man. Can you blame them for not running a charity and support middle men that bring nothing?
Sure some tubes will sign up as affiliates and get 50%, but they are at least bringing traffic to the table.

The industry has been overcrowded with people, and the evolution has now made it difficult for everyone to still stay, yet somehow most people think they are entitled to stay.

word..

the porntube idea is simple.serve lowquality and sell premium.

they are and they still got good conversionrates.all we need just more targeted traffic to reach the right ppl

So, what are you doing to survive as an affiliate if you can't submit to sites anymore and get no more traffic, because they only deal SPONSOR <-> BIG GUY <-> SPONSOR

and let the affiliates out of the business?

If you're smart you start producing content, make paysites that focus on interaction or you move over to mainstream :2 cents:

Why do you think you're entitled to make a living as an affiliate?

http://crakpass.com/ www.crakrevenue.com

we have great plans for affiliates aswell, we are affiliates first and in affiliates we trust.

I really think the new model will stabilize and every positive person in here will end up making good money.

Yeah, another crack on the "you do biz with manwin the evil empire" folks is not really an endorsement for believing that you really want to get anything more out of this discussion than another lynch mob against those that do biz with tubes.

People have come out and said that they sell on tubes, not only those owned by Manwin. You choose not to believe them and that is your choice to make. Many of the companies I know making bank on tubes won't come on here and say anything about it because the last thing they want is any more competition so they aren't exactly unhappy that you feel that way and neither am I.

The reasons I put in our perspective are the following. One, I don't worry about everyone else doing it because it actually takes hard work and most are unwilling to go that distance and take that trouble. Second, I have the benefit of longevity in a market based on survival of the fittest and possess the hindsight of experience to help guide progress. That means I don't just take popular opinion as "right" but try to figure things out based on what actually works for us and makes us money. Finally, we also have a reputation for helping rather than hurting the industry too. So, despite all the negativity and criticism, I am still trying to help people as I have always found alliances and marketing opportunities will grow stronger and more bountiful as a result.

:2 cents:

Firstly, the is the best business discussion we've had here for years. Great thread. :thumbsup

On the face of it this looks very bad. Thinking about it, makes one wonder why would a sponsor close your account and this source of sign up.Was the sponsor seeing an over all harm to his joins by the free option, was it easier for him to do it all himself, what ever the reason he wouldn't turn off a source of 500 extra sign ups without a good reason.

The business is slowly moving that way and without a huge change in piracy laws, it will just keep moving.

To be honest to the Tube site owner, he's already stated 90% of the submitters will not see an improvement. the content isn't good enough to get the sales. Here's why 90% of you won't cut it. I made some changes to make it 100% accurate.

Content was, is and will always be KING. Because dumping 100,000 of people on a pile of shit, doesn't mean they will buy it. Simply shooting a scene with good lighting, in focus and on HD doesn't make it good content.

If that's all you see here, http://orgasms.xxx/tour/, you're in the wrong business. Because you can't tell the difference between a sponge cake made from best flour and sawdust.

The scenes in the initial samples are scenes constructed, directed, shot and edited by a pro. You simply can't do this with a cut price budget. Which is what 90% of site owners have worked with for years. do you see girls screaming "Stick it in my tight teen pussy" and their face saying "This is what I do on every scene."?

Adapt or die. No one gave a fuck when content producing was reduced to a job that anyone with a camera could do. So the business has moved on.

The right people are where the right content is. The problem is producing the premium content. Impossible to sell mediocre when you dish out a 7-10 minute sample to show it's mediocre.

*************************

What is coming through in this thread is quality sells and comparing mediocre and average to quality won't give any proof. I'm not saying I produce quality, so no snipes on that please.

This is the truth. there are a handful of shooters who can produce high quality porn, in Amateur to Playboy levels. What makes them able and most unable is personality, knowledge, skills and money. Basically if you have the money you can buy in the person who has the h quality porn, in Amateur to Playboy levels. What makes them able and most unable is personality, knowledge and skills. Bluebird proved that. They went from no where to the top in a short while by hiring the best shooters.

I started a thread recently to give people a pointer to what it takes to create better porn. The idiots came in and fucked it up. Great porn is about getting a model to do as they are instructed with passion and not just churn out another scene. And knowing what to tell them.

It has 5% to do with the camera. Great porn can be shot on a mobile phone or a $500,000 camera. And crap porn can be shot on a mobile phone or a $500,000 camera. The camera is the easy part, it rarely turns up to a shoot in a bad mood.

I'm not arguing or giving advice, i'm merely stating facts of the state of the industry.
Its not easy any more in this industry, but tubes are not the only source of traffic, there still are others. it just takes more hard work than just submit a gallery with chameleon.

This thread has received a lot of attention. It has over 7,000 views. One would think many different paysite owners have read it. Where are they commenting that these tubes are making them a lot of money with no down side? I don't care that you do business with Manwin. It's just that when you reply to something like this I know what your answer and position is going to be already because you've spent the last year popping up in any thread about Manwin and defending them and saying their tubes are great for you.

Let's see comments from people who are more objective.

People who fit the following criteria:

1. People who are not an employee of a tube.
2. People who have not spent the last year defending Manwin in every thread like this.
3. People who are not playing "I scratch your back, you scratch mine Bro"

There are thousands of paysite owners who fit this criteria that are reading this forum. Let's hear from them and get their experiences.

How is me giving a clip of mine to a tube site "hard work"?

I DID the real hard work when I wrote, scripted, shot, and edited the video for my members area.

And since I AM the editor...editing down a clip to go on a tube takes 20 minutes of my time and is as easy to me as breathing the air.

It's much harder for me to sit down and make hosted galleries for tgp's to use (I do all that work myself as well).
I understand that you are doing great on tubes. But to insinuate that it's somehow "hard" to give away free scenes is just not true.

I'm a one man show over here...and it's not hard at all. And for those out there that don't protect their content, it's even EASIER. People will just steal it from your members area and upload the whole damn scene! Nothing "hard" about that.

I have to laugh when I see folks saying "Oh, it used to be easy to make money, but now it takes all these magical skills that only a few of us possess"

No...I've always worked long hours to make my money. It's why I'm successful and have had sustained success making the money I do since 1996. It's NEVER been "easy".

But it was always PROFITABLE. Incredibly so! Today? Not so much. People just don't spend as much money now on porn. And whether anybody in this thread wants to admit it or not: The overwhelming majority of people no longer pay for porn. Whatever money that we are all making now...we COULD be making 1000 times that much if it weren't for piracy and hundreds of thousands of free full scenes on the internet.

Yes...it's smart to work within the situation that we are faced with and strive to prosper. But to think that this is a booming industry is just not true (unless you own one of the big tube sites)

This was not my point. His site is nice, I would not be ashamed of owning it or what ever.

My point is that the girls are nothing special, NOT saying they are ugly or that there is anything wrong with them

The clips are well shot but still nothing special NOT saying they are bad

The chemistry in the clips is, you guessed it, nothing special and so is the niche: met art knock off...

The site content/layout is nothing special it is NOT ugly or bad its just no ferrarri...



My point?

Not to knock on the quality of orgasms.xxx or the site, just to point out that it brings nothing special to the table, yes its not the same old "filler" porn, I never said it was, but it IS a copy of a copy of met-art and not done as well. Can I do better? Not the point of my post...

Can many producers here do just as good material? <-------This is my point and the answer is YES

So why is there not more love for the tubes? Why do producers keep saying that tubes are killing porn?

Common sense is not to be overlooked sometimes...If a brand new middle class or upper middle class site like orgasms.xxx is getting 120 sales/day just from free tube traffic then you have to wonder why there are not more doing as well...

IMO tubes are the "lehman brothers" of porn...dishing out other peoples assets irresponsibly to push penis pills and dating and making nice $$$ while the baloon lasts...win win for manwin

Giving away more and more free porn longer and longer clips with a beginning, middle and ending and all top quality....LOL snap out of it eh?

I'll note that if any of you are content producers / program or studio owners, that PornHub will host a special moneymaking session at XBIZ Miami, detailing the ways in which rights holders can maximize their profits from posting video clips to the site.

If you really want to know how to make this all work, that'll be the place to find out.

Correct me if I'm wrong, as I know you've been around forever in the business, but you guys came into the online business pretty late in the game. No? I know you had a site but I think I remember you guys not really making real moves with it until just a few years ago. Is that accurate or am I confusing Homegrown with someone else?

I was browsing adultcontent.nl and I see you still have lots of content for sell, and probably on other content sellers too.

So, it still generates some good passive income for you each month...

That's mighty white of them.

Boggles the mind how a site can go from paying people to steal and upload everyone's content to holding seminars at industry shows to teach those who they have been stealing from this entire time, and get the support of industry media like Xbiz who allows them to do it. Just incredible. Almost at a loss for words.

We really are our own worst enemy. :2 cents:

It's sickening. I can see why so many people have left the industry. It's not just the money. Porn has never been an industry with the highest moral values but we're to the point where there really isn't much of an industry left. Just a bunch of gangsters and cartels looking to utilize scams, theft, racketeering, and fraud to make as much short term gains as possible with a few honest people here and there trying to make a living in spite of it.

We can say it isn't our fault but if every single person who disagreed with some of these tactics made a comment and took even some small action I guarantee you we wouldn't be where we are. Imagine a thread like this full of 10,000 pay site owners telling these scumbags to go to hell. The industry gets what it deserves for not speaking up or taking action.

You aren't wrong - just not informed. We have been online since 1997 when we were still just posting pictures and mail order ads on BBS like the General and GiffyGirls. Eventually we had about 3000 members paying close to $50 per month when we made a marketing deal with Cybererotica. We grew quickly to over 4 times that with CE's huge roster of affiliates. That did really well but unfortunately for reasons I am not allowed to elaborate under the terms of our settlement the deal ended in a long and painful arbitration. From there we had to start all over again. Starting literally from zero members... and that is the dark ages where Homegrown went sort of off the tracks.

We had to grow yet we trusted no one and had issues with people loyal to the old program; so, we had to learn how to market in a new environment, and had to restore, rebuild, re-invent. This all sucked but it forged us into a new company online where we didn't rely on affiliates, not because we didn't want them, but because we had such a hard time getting them. We used RevEx and affiliates hated it. So, we made missteps along the way but through trial and error we scraped our way out. While we still have a long way to go, now we have sought a balance of our own internal traffic, affiliates again because we switched to NATS, and paid managed traffic.

Now, in direct contradiction to what many here claim, we convert better from join page uniques than we did 4 years ago. Our retention has always been great but in the same time it has improved as well. So that is why I am not anti-tube and not because I have to suck up to Manwin.

Truth be told, I think of Manwin as a 400lb gorilla that could tear us all limb from limb. I am more like Jane Goodall sitting in the brush watching them and studying their habits to try and understand something about marketing in this jungle we call online adult. That they are friendly to us is only the result of them feeling zero threat from us. As they become more used to us being around they treat us with bored curiousity and indifferent acceptance just like most of the other programs they partner with.

Today, btw, we are one of the very few old school brick and mortar companies to actually still own its own library and run its own online rather than completely outsourcing everything.

The hard work comes from doing the split testing and redesign and re-editing and re-testing on each and every aspect of every creative from textlink/banner to landing page to join - so that is more than doing tgp galleries even - and you already said you don't do that since your dick tells you everything you need to know when it comes to why something works or not when you put up a clip. :winkwink:

Also, since the early days when programs seeded password sites with passwords to stuff surfers into their sites, then cut them off, then watch the sign ups roll in - people have been using "free" and "stolen" etc to get sales. You have been around long enough to know this.

The business started out being mob controlled waaay back in the day. Makes sense for it to end up that way now, or at least a version of it. Criminals have always been a driving force of the industry it seems, both online and off. Porn attracts those types. Always has, always will. Easy money. No real consequences. You can be the biggest shit stain on earth and there is no shortage of people who will still do business with you. That's always been how it is. It's just more obvious now with the internet.

What I really don't understand is why Xbiz would allow the largest pirate tube to hold such a seminar when there are some honest tubes who don't steal from people who would probably be just as willing to give the same seminar. Maybe it's the same reason they gave Stuart Lawley a platform on their forum during the .XXX nonsense, because they are attracted to shit bags. Who knows?

Kudos to pornhub for trying to clean up its act now, but this would be like inviting Chris Mallick holding a seminar at the next show to teach all ex-ePass card holders how to profit from his new card company, MallickPass. I doubt that would fly, but then again, who knows. Maybe it would.


Thanks. Didn't expect all of that. I actually didn't notice your online presence until you made the comeback, then you came full force. Well done.

Very tedious and time consuming.

lol you seem like some closeted nerd who never gets out. show me a pizza place that doesn`t have roots in dirty money let alone the porn industry.

don`t be such a fucking noob.

1. I am not an employee of any tube.

2. I haven't said much about Manwin other than them being a 400lb gorilla. Not exactly a compliment but a straight acknowledgement of the fact. Besides that, being someone that came out and said what experiences I had with them is all I have done. If the experience had been bad I would have had the balls to say it. If they fucked us over then we have a long history of going after anyone who messes with us.

While you are content to stand there with a pitchfork and a torch and yell from your soapbox that everyone should get together and fight, fight, fight, I have actually been in those fights, protracted legal battles that have had a profound and positive effect on everyone including those content to sit on the sidelines, and with very little support from the industry except for a very rare few.

3. There you go with a "bro" accusation which bothers me more than most because I have actually gone after the so-called "bros" more than anyone here can lay claim to. Do you know what a catch-22 is? Well, you are putting people in a catch-22. You can't work with an affiliate and try to make money together unless you have a "scratch each others back" relationship so asking for people not to contribute because they have to have that relationship (marketing 101 really) makes it impossible for anyone to say anything without violating your restrictions.

You are asking for "objectivity" in a situation that "subjectivity" is way more valuable. Who is going to be more objective? The program that is making money on tubes or the ones not making money? You can't be neutrally "objective" in this discussion if you don't have experience and knowledge of the issues. So that only leaves people that by virtue of the debate have to provide subjectivity in order to contribute meaningfully.

The more this goes on the less informative it becomes and the more obvious it is that you just have an agenda to once again go "tubes are bad". The success of this thread is more due to the wealth of subjective practical information being shared and discussed than it is due to the drama. :2 cents:

How can I attend this? Not a producer or sponsor but I would like to hear what they have to say anyways.

why bother. instead of testing and real world experience the guy prefers wall of text theorizing. he thinks somehow walls of text on a message board is somehow going to bend reality to his preconceptions. he may be paul markham's son.

My "testing" does come from my cock. And the interactive nature of our site that gives me more valuable input from our members than all the testing in the world.

And yeah...everybody did use the ILLUSION of "free" and "stolen" to get sales. I'd say there's a difference between that and people actually stealing entire members areas and giving them out for free.

Man, I hope you really are doing great. I like your stuff and I think you should be making more money than you can spend.

I'm going to give this PornTube a shot. I have one video in que to go up right now. And I've come up with an idea that I haven't seen anyone else do yet to start pumping video footage into it to get traffic WITHOUT giving away my entire members area.

I'll report back on the results I see with total honesty.

I don't have to worry about pissing them off and "losing" their traffic. I already have more than most and it's all gold because it's all people looking for Claudia Marie and guys who love big tits.

So if I can make even MORE money with PornTube, I will. And if I don't see any big increase in traffic to the site...or increase in sales...I will report back here on it.

The opposite is also true. IF PornTube benefits me, I will be their biggest proponent. And I will defend them to the death on here.

I'm an island unto myself and don't have to worry about what anyone thinks. So when I finally get this thing rolling with them, I'll let everyone know what happens. :)

guess what robbie i know everything is about "you" and the great robbie but guess what sometimes your magical cock does not know everything. hard to believe but it may be true.

I believe it's an open session, an official announcement may be made shortly.

I think it'll rock: "We will cover how content owners and studios can earn more money with Pornhub through our content partner program. Topics will include optimizing free ad spaces (banners, text links) based on CTR and conversion ratios, optimal video clip length, video editing, optimizing titles/tags of videos, building brand recognition, video ratings. We will not cover advertising or traffic opportunities for advertisers."

I have original content and I have a Pimproll HostedTube -- anything I can learn from a successful company that may benefit either, for me, makes this session worth attending.

This is 2012 and the game has already changed :2 cents:

so, if tube traffic converts then its all good.
but if it doesn't work, they are evil and ruining the industry.

Far-L, come on. The message wasn't personally directed at you on each and every point. I didn't quote you or use your name once in that reply. Don't be so defensive.

I have an agenda for sure. I've been in the industry since over 12 years and would prefer to stay in it. I'm open to real people coming forth and saying that these tubes are killing it for them. That's why I started the topic. I'm not open to believing people who are employees of the same tubes, Bros doing the "I'll scratch your back, you scratch mine" routine, or people who have spent the last year defending the same tubes.

I know how you feel about it just as you know how I feel about it. What I want is to see experiences from other real paysite owners as described. There are thousands of them here.

From day one I knew that you were a rat, but I wasn't sure if you were a complete and total asshole.

Now I'm sure :321GFY


.

Pretty much.

Do you have a different criteria?


.

Back on the ignore list with you. I had you there before but took you off when I figured out that you actually had some sites in adult. Now I'm not so sure you do anything in adult besides troll here six hours a day for the hell of it. Have fun with it!

The man is speaking as a program owner and as such what he's saying is about a lot of people here.

And, as near as I can see, both Robbie and his magical cock have been spot on.
.

ok. good luck with wall of text theorizing instead of testing. let me know how that goes for you.

omg the ignore list. what will i do? please don't.

I'm looking forward to it. I think you'll see your ctr a little higher this time because of the more prominent banners and links than what was typical last time.

People can talk shit but I'll believe a guy like you because you have a record of not bullshitting. Same for Jel and Nautilus. Same for most of the honest smaller or medium sized long time pay site owners in the industry who are mainly staying silent in regards to this.

that sums up your whole way of approaching the world. instead of learning from people who are succeeding in this new environment, you only listen to those who can't, who validate what you have already decided.

I know but when you generalize it is like a sawed off shotgun blast where everyone in a wide path gets stung with some buckshot. So how about I stop being defensive when I feel you aren't being offensive?

You have had programs get in the thread and comment but why would any others do as much when all they get is a Markham rant, and you and others that just seem like malcontents taking shots at their integrity just because they work with legit tubes?

Wait, you could do a lot more sales but you aren't really interested in that. Yes, makes sense.

Looks like he is avoiding me now. Wonder why.

Yeah, imagine that!

The man would like to hear the opinions of honest webmasters rather than those of thieving tube monkeys.

What the hell could he be thinking????
.

there is a reason paul markham agrees with everything he says.

Like I said please don't be so defensive. I'm not shooting you with buckshot... Come on.

Here are the people who own paysites who commented as far as I know. Don't take this as a personal attack, I'm only saying what I think out loud.

You - Spent the last year defending Manwin in these threads. Not what I'm looking for as far as experiences although I'll listen. No offense or anything. I don't think you are lying but I already know how you feel about this.

Robbie - I know Robbie isn't a bullshitter. He'll openly admit what he used to make and what he makes now. I know he tells the truth usually. His experiences were mostly what he considered negative but his experiences are rather dated. He is going to run a new test and I'll tend to believe him.

Ruseful - At first his numbers blew me away and I started to believe him. Then it was revealed that he's basically an employee of one of these tubes. I can't call that objective or reliable. I'd like to see some others.

Nautilus - Nautilus's stance is no mystery. Same as Robbie. But I know him not to be a bullshitter so I put some stock in it anyway. He says the tubes did bad for him in the past. Even worse than what Robbie saw.

Mr. Peabody - I like Mr. Peabody. But like you he's praised the tubes in the past a lot too. He's not really what I'm looking for as far as new experiences from paysite owners.

Paul Markham- Well we all know Paul Markham!

Jel- I know Jel is also a no bullshit kind of guy and I would tend to believe him. He says he's going to run a test with his sites.

DWB - I think he is a paysite owner and from what I recall his experiences were mostly negative.

Pornhub - Come on.


If I missed a pay site owner who responded let me know. Like I said I'd like to see more experiences from actual pay site owners. Not just the usual suspects or employees. There are thousands of them on this forum.