personally i dont connect the 2 policies, as tax dodging to me is a separate matter as to whether trickle down works. at this point anyone who still believes in the trickle down should just hop on the short bus to cheneytown. If he is dodging taxes, it speaks to his ethics. AKA he is no different then every rich person who is looking out for themselves & just gaming the system to their benefit.

i dont think its possible to have a small government anymore. not when politicians are making decisions with trillion dollar figures at their disposal. The washington pols seem to think there is unlimited money supply & the fed will fix everything, someday.

my opinion is that george w bush has a historical equivalency to roman emperor commodus...they guy who started the fall of the empire.

Of course the fact that pretty much every top Democrat has offshore accounts and offshore investments shouldn't matter, right? Meanwhile Obama used $29 BILLION of OTHER peoples money, (i.e. yours and mine) to send jobs overseas. At least Romney used his own cash.

And every middle class and poor persona is as pure as the driven snow. They only think of others, and never try to "game the system" to their benefit.


Just remember, if someone becomes successful, they are now evil.





.:2 cents:

fitty hidden things :pimp

this really has nothing to do with class. i have this opinion that the corporate CEOs plus lobbyists & congressmen for sale have come together to outsource US jobs to china, to cut cap gains to the bone, to deregulate many facets of the economy, all in the name of increasing wealth for the wealthy class alone.

Should trickle down have been true, the amazing wealth growth at the top (they are still the only class whose recovered from the recession) should have resulted in large job growth for the middle class.

It did create lots of jobs, but only in places where corporations now depend on for growth, china. Mitt Romney looks like a guy who has sent jobs elsewhere & is possibly illegally hiding money, so he makes more & more for himself.

He has yet to say a word to change my mind on this, & hiding his taxes is not helping!

Sorry: wrong

We didn't need them back in the 60's and 70's and 80's when "terrorists" were actually hijacking jet liners several times a year, killing people and blowing up planes in mid-air.

My opinion is that the federal govt. used what happened on 9-11 to do a lot of things they had always wanted to do...especially searching people going on an airplane looking for drugs.

And I believe if I ever heard an actual human being standing in front of me screaming "where was govt." I'd probably punch 'em right in the face. lol

the salami

Actually, he didn't say that.
The guy in charge of his campaign said it in a dumb moment. Exactly the kind of thing that he and the rest of the political team try to keep their candidate from ever saying.

I kinda think it's weird that I have to be a Libertarian. I feel like I'm just looking at things with some common sense.

Nobody gave a fuck that JFK was 1000 times richer than Romney is. Or that the Kennedy family wealth was based off of bootlegging during Prohibition. Or that Kennedy was fucking dozens of girls behind his wife's back. Or that they had a bazillion dollars in Swiss bank accounts and businesses around the world (outsourcing lol) Who cares???

What was important was his ideas for the country.

That is what we should be looking at.
Do you think Obama has the right idea and vision for the country or do you think Romney does?
That should be the ONLY question.

But that doesn't draw ratings for CNN, FOX, MSNBC, etc.

So the campaigns go into stupid mode to get coverage and win over voters who are dumbed down by reality t.v.

I don't think it's really being Libertarian to expect our elections to be a step above an episode of "Jersey Shore" :1orglaugh
Look at what is going on in the country and the world.
And we're all served up a bunch of misdirection that has NOTHING to do with the direction of the country and fixing the economy.

I agree.

Speaking of birthers, Donald Trump was on Fox News this morning (I know, I know), this time calling for Obama's college records, with the Fox and Friends people nodding in agreement. Just insane.

seriously that is so fucking disgusting :2 cents::2 cents:

It's gotten so bad that now even Mitt wants to know what Romney's hiding!



https://youtube.com/watch?v=K9njHHyRI7g

Fucking dumb.

And people eat that shit up. That's the worst part.

They'd rather worry about Obama partying in high school and college (like every normal person does) or Romney trying to keep his own money (like every normal person does).

I'd like to know: What are they going to do with the mess our country is in? The economy in shambles, our personal freedoms deteriorating, people on welfare, the govt. so far in debt we will never be able to pay it off...

Jewish chick with big naturals promises to sort out the issues...



https://youtube.com/watch?v=2B5o6-qNk6Q

always sickens me when hollywood gets behind any candidate. just shows how fucking clueless they are.

Freaky_Akula = Donald Trump. Great to meet ya, knucklehead

:2 cents::2 cents::2 cents:

hey you buzzkill. don't ruin a great fairy tale with facts.

ps - i am not an obama supporter. i just like facts.

People in the bible belt don't know the definition of hypocrisy.

Actually most Americans don't know the definition of hypocrisy.

Robbie, i think you and i are in about the same demographic. and i'm a student of economic history. that said, go look up tax rates during America's true heyday in the 50s and 60s.

the myth that high tax rates on the rich impede economic growth is just that. a myth.

i believe it's because right-wingers especially have been conditioned to think that any statements that don't agree with their "thoughts" immediately means you're a "liberal". even if you're like me and think that the whole lib v con thing is a total sham.

Every newspaper should re-print this for truth.

Companies hire when they need to. They buy shit, when they need to. It's all born out of necessity. Taxes are an after thought. You can have tax credits to hire people all day long, but what will still matter is if people are needed / if there is a role for them to fill.

CONFIDENCE + PERCEPTION is what drives the world economy. The economy sucks cause everyone is down. People buy less, conserve, etc. When things are going "great" people buy more. They think they have enough cash in their pocket to buy more shit. It's all a game of turnover. If you listen to what any of the GREATS like Warren Buffet / George Soros say about the bailouts. The $ was whatever to the banks, in some instances the banks didn't need it. The main function was to send a message to the world that the US gov't would back everyone. This was to create confidence, and a backstop against a massive run on all the banks, which would've ended in real contagion. It was a CONFIDENCE play.

i sure don't think that. and i'm a libertarian.

the definition of libertarianism that i adhere to is that government's function is to protect the people from Force and Fraud.

Successful people aren't inherently evil, but a taste of big money makes a lot of people totally amoral. for fuck's sake, we've seen that in the porn biz a zillion times. what makes you think it would be any different in the government biz, where the dollars are infinitely higher?

And that's why you need regulation. Look at the deregulation of the S&L's (in the '80s, where owners of S&L's turned their 'banks' into their personal piggy banks) and the repeal of Glass-Steagall, which sewed the seeds of the financial crisis that we're still dealing with.

Ivory Tower libertarians forget one core thing. HUMAN NATURE.

I think Romney is hiding more of what we've already seen.

Years where he has banked incredible amounts of income, and incredibly low taxation rates, except potentially lower than the 14% we've already seen. Imagine if he had a year where he made 10-20m, but paid 0-5% in taxes due to shielding, that he was so effective in tax shielding he paid literally nothing or close to nothing. Even if it is the same 14%, it will just re-ignite the conversation again and for weeks until the election we'll be talking about it. It will just pour more gasoline on the fire. The more we talk about his tax returns, the less likely he will win the election. Obama is dictating the narrative, and thats how you win elections.

As for why Obama is pounding home the Bain exit departure date. There has been a lot of bad investments for Romney. One was Stericycle. They are a medical waste company, that disposed of aborted fetuses. That won't be good for his base. There is also a slew of outsourcing companies. There are also outsourcing companies where investments were made prior to his 1999 departure date. If we keep talking about this, Obama wins.

Romney will just keep pointing at the Jobs numbers, thats all he really has, which is pretty powerful in and of itself.

I don't think that tax rates can cause economic growth. But I do believe that high tax rates drive business away.

Hell, all you have to do is watch what happens state to state.

When a state gives companies tax breaks...they flock there. And when states are expensive to do business in...they leave.

I live in Las Vegas right now in part because I was tired of paying high state income tax.

I think that when the economy is roaring....it's a mixture of things all happening at once.

I don't think that low taxes make it happen. But I also don't believe that we can fix this economy by raising taxes. I see no evidence that giving MORE money to the federal govt. to waste is the answer to fixing the economy.

Do you?

that is true. and what obama needs to keep reminding people is that he inherited the worst mess since the depression. again, i'm not for either of them, but facts are facts. you don't get out of a near-depression situation in a few years. it takes a long damn time.

obama's just another politician, and a chicago one at that. if he really was about change, we'd already see some high-level big bank execs on trial, and some meaningful change in bankining regulation (i.e. re-enacting Glass-Steagall). but he isn't, so we don't.

doesn't matter who's in the white house or in control of congress. this all plays out on a level higher than politics.

you only quoted the second half of my comment.

if you can be bothered, go look up tax rates during the 50s and 60s. you'll see that high tax rates didn't deter people from starting businesses etc. we've had 30+ years of proof that 'trickle down' economics is a sham.

But...Reagan did it. For whatever reasons...the stars aligned and Reagan did it in a couple of years.

And also we have Obama's own words...that if he couldn't fix things in 3 years that his Presidency was going to be a "one term proposition"

My thought since the beginning of Obama's presidency was that he shouldn't have spent the first two years the way he did.

He had both houses of Congress and all they did was argue and do nothing. Obama seemed disconnected to me during that time and seemed to hand the ball over to Congress.

The result was a health insurance bill.

It should have been a focus on getting the economy straightened out.

I voted for Obama...and like a lot of people who did, I am very disappointed.

Everybody forgets that the Bush years were ROARING. We all made tons of money for 6 1/2 years of the 8.

When Obama came in...it was bad. But not nearly as bad as it got by his second and third years.

The economy had just started really faltering at the end of Bush's term.

It wasn't the worst in our lifetimes yet. Hell, it wasn't even CLOSE to what Reagan inherited from the Carter years.

But within a year of Obama being in office...and the Senate and House not doing anything even though it was all Democratically controlled...we found ourselves in the worst economy of my lifetime.

Hell...there hasn't even been ONE budget passed in almost 4 years. It's really a mess.

it wasn't that the stars aligned. they did it right. they shut down the shit S&L's, sold off their assets for pennies on the dollar. there was a real estate crash and a recession, but nowhere near what we're dealing with now because they made the right decision to take some short term pain for long term gain. credit where it's due.

Couldn't agree more. He should have spent his capital on fixing the economy and corrupt banking industry. But since he's just a whore to big bidniss (news flash, he isn't a socialist!!) like every other national level politician, he didn't.

To be fair, the repubs took the filibuster to an unprecedented level.

That's what I would have done, were i in his position. but i actually care about this country ;)

I didn't.. because while i think he was a better choice than McCain and his clueless vp nominee, i knew he was just another politician

Yes those years were roaring due to a real estate bubble created by massive fraud, created by the banks (who created the ripe for fraud BS loan products and paid 3x the commission on those than they did on standard loans) and the sleazy or gullible consumers who took those loans.

Slice up the blame pie however you like, but the whole thing was unsustainable.

Robbie, this is factually inaccurate.

A-fucking-men. As my wife once astutely said, this country needs a complete political enema.

Thing is...I haven't even heard of any actual fillibuster's taking place.

As I understood it...the Republicans threatened to do it...and the Dems caved in. No actual week long fillibuster's ever happened (like they used to do 100 years ago)

So the Dems decided that they don't have a "super majority" to put down a fillibuster and so they just didn't even bother.
Oh wait a minute...they DID have a super majority at one point. But they still didn't DO anything. :(

Politicians get away with everything. They lie and cheat. They send thousands of young men to faraway countries to die in meaningless wars. They never do what they promised. And the next guy will not be any better.

I have two issues with your post

One, on regulation:

http://cdn4.diggstatic.com/story/the...poratism/o.png

There has NEVER been any "deregulation" that actually happened in the US. It's a political myth perpetuated to get us to buy into yet more regulations.

And two, on human nature:

“If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind?”
― Frédéric Bastiat,



In other words, people in government as just as bad, or worse, then the rest of us. The only difference is that they can use FORCE in order to make us comply with their decisions.




.:2 cents:

No.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savings_and_loan_crisis
http://www.fdic.gov/bank/historical/s&l/
http://www.cato.org/pubs/regulation/...3-england.html
etc etc etc
Apparently the Depository Institutions Deregulation and Monetary Control Act of 1980 wasn't about deregulation. ok.

Regarding the mortgage crisis of 2008:

If the repeal of Glass-Steagall wasn't deregulation, then i'm at a loss. It removed the previous regulation which stipulated that retail banks could not get into the investment banking business. That meant they were now free to make all sorts of wild bets with depositor's money.

In 1998, the CFTC proposed to regulate the derivatives market (which it oversaw), a $50 Trillion unregulated market/casino that included things like CDO's and Credit Default Swaps . It was shot down by the Clinton administration. In 2000 Chairman of the Senate Banking Committe (and future vice-chairman of UBS, hmmm) Phil Gramm introduced and got passed a law that basically prevented any regulation of derivatives.

So sure, that wasn't deregulation. It was the prevention of any regulation.

Also, the SEC's enforcement division's ability to regulate was systematically gutted by rules changes and dramatic staff cuts. It's pretty hard to regulate with your hands tied and a skeleton staff. That to me is blatant de facto deregulation.




This is just silly. So because all humans are imperfect and some are easily corrupted, we should just have no regulation at all? Please.

Exactly....Which is why he needs to DISCLOSE how he took advantage of every tax loophole and get folks off of his back.....Also, YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW what he took advantage of or not because YOU haven't seen his tax records....It's amazing how you act like you and Romney are bosom buddies and you know all of his business.

I'm loving how folks like you are trying to dance around the issue now....If obama fucks up, I admit it....If Romney fucks up, folks like you start dancing the Charleston.

If it were me I would say..."It's none of your business" when they ask about my tax documents. I don't think it's any kind of law that says you have to anyway. It's just something the media started up a while back.

Romney made public his last two years of taxes. Exactly what I had to do to finance my home.

The day a politician FINALLY looks at the media and just tells them "It's none of your business and has nothing to do with the job of being President" on any of these non-issues...I'm voting for that guy.

I thought Clinton should have said that when they asked him about Monica Lewinski. I think Obama should have said it when they started up about the whole birth certificate fiasco. And I think Romney should say it now.
NONE of them will though.

And besides getting some cool bro points from you, he'll go down in flames....Because it IS MY BUSINESS if you're making laws and policies that run my fucking life, which is a little more complicated and way more important to me and the rest of the country than getting a home mortgage.

There's no law, that's for sure. I think there's a general expectation that if you're running for high office that your cards need to be on the table.

The media didn't start this. Of all people, Romney's father George started the practice 40+ years ago. He released his past 12 years tax returns as part of his bid for the republican nomination. Since then, every presidential candidate has been forthcoming with their tax returns.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/18/opinio...tax/index.html

his balling hard.