Very good points. Having a system where we have competing currencies within the US (IE each state has it own currency, or anyone who wants to start and run a currency can) doesn't really benefit us as much as having one good strong currency which our government is not doing enough to protect.

It does seem to be getting worse and worse. There has always been a divide, but it seems like these days there are several people I know who are republicans and they believe in their heart that the democrats will destroy this country and are planning a communist takeover and that the republicans are the only ones that can save it. On the other side I have some friends and relatives who are democrats and feel the exact same way about the republicans. I have two aunts that have had such heated fights over politics that they no longer speak and won't go to the same family functions. It is crazy.

Both parties know that they benefit during election years if there is a strong culture war and it seems like they finally got what they want.

I don't believe it's a culture war or a race war or any other specific demographic. Go back through the history of our nation and you will always find politicians trying to divide people to make it easier to get 51% of their support. Look up Gerrymandering if you aren't familiar with it, it's a very interesting lesson in how politics works and it remains as true today as it was when it first started. They don't care which issue divides us, they only care that it defines 51% of us as their built-in support.

What has changed is that we used to have Statesmen in our government, in our news media, in our classrooms and in our social circles who were able to show scumbag politicians for what they really were. When that failed we had terrible times like McCarthyism, when it worked we had periods of prosperity thanks in no small part to people like Walter Cronkite, Dwight Eisenhower and FDR. People have always disagreed on the best way to solve a problem but now they disagree on 'whether or not it benefits our party to solve a problem.'

You can look at someone like Bill Moyers on the left as a living statesman. Some would argue Jon Stewart and Colbert fit the bill. On the right people like George Will or Pat Buchanan might be included (I agreed with Buchanan about once every 30 years but I don't doubt he honestly wants what he truly believes is best for the nation). Jim Baker probably also fits the label. Those kinds of people with national prominence are very few and far between these days... which is why the Glenn Becks, Bachmans, Pelosis and Keith Olbermans of the world are getting way too much attention while the issues get almost none.

I don't dislike people I disagree with, in fact many of my best friends have very different points of view from my own. None of us doubt the other's intentions... that is what matters most, and it is what is lacking almost completely in our national discourse today.

Huh?

No they did not! Companies did.

The American Electric Power company built the very first long distance lines in 1911. And the utility companies built the rest because it's cheaper for some areas to buy electricity from other areas than it is to produce it locally. Free market...buying and selling. That is the "power grid".

Well...I'm gonna go with this:
"The Department of the Treasury is an executive department and the treasury of the United States federal government. It was established by an Act of Congress in 1789 to manage government revenue. The Department is administered by the Secretary of the Treasury, who is a member of the Cabinet.

The Treasury prints and mints all paper currency and coins in circulation through the Bureau of Engraving and Printing and the United States Mint. The Department also collects all federal taxes through the Internal Revenue Service, and manages U.S. government debt instruments, with the major exception of the Federal Reserve System.

The U.S. Treasury is an entirely separate entity from the Federal Reserve System, the central banking system of the United States. The Federal Reserve is independent within the government, and its Board of Governors (including its chairman and vice-chairman) are chosen by the President and confirmed by the Senate. Monetary policy decisions of the Federal Reserve System, in distinction to the Treasury's decisions, "do not have to be approved by the President or anyone else in the executive or legislative branches of government."

i cant wait till that mofo is outta office.. damn

Trust me...he'll just be replaced by the next "mofo" lol

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

When I say culture war I guess I don't mean it in a literal sense but more as a broad statement. For example sports teams often talk about building and developing a culture of winning. I see it, in these terms, as more a statement of overall ideals.

For example. Today a friend of mine posted on his Facebook that every time he hears Obama speak he can't imagine how people can't see that he is a full blown communist. He will now be voting for Romney because of this. Over the last three years the republicans have done a very good job of branding Obama as a communist to their base. The democrats are doing it now with Romney as they work hard to paint him as an evil blood sucking capitalist who would sell his mom for profit and who will gut this country and sell it to China and it is starting to work.

What is most sad to me is that both parties seemed to have stop caring about helping the country get better and are no just worried about getting re-elected even if that means letting the country as a whole suffer for a while and there are a lot of people who eat it up.

heh-heh Both statements are probably true! :1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

So many people falling for the scam.

The super-wealthy ruling class keep pushing the idea that the whole system is broken and people are believing it, despite the system working perfectly not much more than 10 years ago when we had budget surplusses and everyone had a job. It wasn't until the banking industry bankrupted the whole planet that things took a shit.

The reason they want you to think the whole system is broken is because it opens you up to accepting all kinds of crazy schemes, but the thing is the super rich are still in charge and still have the politicians in their pocket, so they are going to rewrite everything totally in their favor, even more than it is now. So basically if they convince you the whole system is broken, then they get to rewrite the system however they want since the people have ZERO representation now.

People generally enslave themselves, they don't get enslaved, and that's what Americans are doing with all this infighting. When there is infighting and chaos and confusion, these evil people come out of the woodwork and capitalize.

The banks gutted the middle class and sucked out all the equity, now they want to rewrite the entire system of government so they can gut out what's left then move on to whatever is next.

Americans need to realize that all this political in-fighting is exactly the plan, it will allow a ruling class to take over and rewrite the system totally in their favor. That's how it always works.

Go read the comments on a news story about dogs or something totally random and it's not 5 comments before it gets political, that's how crazy it has become.

Right. "Culture War" has been a term co-opted by red shirts trying to say the government is dividing us based on who is rich and who is poor. Believe me, if we were all suddenly rich or suddenly poor they would quickly find a new dividing line to use. They don't care which demographic they need to use, only that it divides us evenly... the same way that bookies don't care which team will win, only what point spread will divide the pool of gamblers to the benefit of the house.

Very true.

A while back I read something about Karl Rove and how his philosophy for running an campaign was that you crank up the culture war to get the hard right wingers scared that the democrats are going to hire sex offender teachers for all schools and those schools will rape your daughters, get them pregnant then force them to have abortions. Then you move just enough to middle to get the more right leaning independents and you hope for rain on election day because a low turnout favors the republicans.

Sadly, he is right.

Bringing it back to the topic of this thread you can see Obama doing it now as well. In his speech he is basically telling people that the government can and will help them succeed in life so just vote for him and he will help you get rich.

Well I am glad to know that the banks and wall street did not crash the economy. It was the workers and the government that did that. Without the help of the workers or government there would have been no great recession. :thumbsup

That is a very true statement. It seems like no matter what the news story is about it doesn't take long and someone sees it as a political ploy and infighting starts.

Who built the Hoover Dam and many of the electricity generating stations?

Robbie, with respect. If you advocate tax cuts, where would you like the savings to be made in the Budget. So the US doesn't borrow even more money to keep the system from sinking?

Also the financial crisis, isn't just down to the Government. A lot of the blame lies with Private Enterprise. Shipping jobs over seas, a banking sector that wasn't governed enough. And when the shit hit the fan the Government had to step in to save the country from a recession that would of made the 30s look like a tea party. While the Bankers, private enterprise, ran off to the Bahamas with their money.

Watch this to understand clearer.



Many take for granted what Governments do to keep the wheels turning. It might be the local Town Hall, State Government or Federal. Without them, it would be even worse chaos than it is.

What Obama was saying is "No Man is an Island".

A group of companies that formed a single company for the project called "Six Companies"

This was a project that was undertaken by Pres. Coolidge in the middle of the GREAT Depression.

The govt. hired The Six Companies (who brought in the lowest bid) to do the job as part of a way to get people working again.

In 2012...our govt. won't even allow the Keystone Pipeline (which would be a huge economic boom) to be built.

IF the Hoover Dam were to be attempted today...it would never be built because of the E.P.A. (environmental protection agency) And Congress wouldn't even consider it because Democrats would NEVER vote against environmentalists groups (thus the loss of jobs and money from the Keystone Pipeline)

I watched all of that on The History Channel by the way. lol
And yes, they said that it would not be built in "modern" times because ecologists would block it.

Hope that answers that for you. :)

Not to downplay his tremendous efforts or anything, but isn't this exactly the point President Obama was getting at? He never once has mentioned anything about people needing to depend on the government for anything, and I've listened to / read all of his speeches since even prior to his election.

There are certain media channels, radio spokespersons, etc... that wish for millions of people to feel a certain way about this President, because, well, isn't the reason obvious? Rather than just coming out and saying it, people tend to beat around the bush, twist his words, plant words in his mouth, and play soundbytes that are just long enough for the listeners/viewers to be fooled into thinking he is this bad person.

I'm not saying he's the perfect person or anything, but President Obama makes a lot of valid points. Nobody that has truly become successful, has gotten there on their own. He never says or implies that it's the government's fault that people become successful, but he persistent with the idea of other people in general -- helping others to become successful.

Your store wouldn't be a success without customers. But then again, your customers wouldn't purchase your products unless you were selling them... Did you make them? Did you create all your products to sell by yourself? Even if you did, again... You needed customers to actually buy the product, otherwise, you would not have achieved success, right? You own a massive company? Do you complete all the work yourself? Does Mr. Best Buy or Mr. Target single-handedly run each and every store by himself? Probably not. What does he have to do? Hire employees? Sure, they get paid, so why should he worry about their health insurance? I mean, if they're earning $9/hr, that should be enough to cover $200/month for themselves to be insured, right? It's not like they have a family or anything to provide for... These people don't matter, anyway, right? All they do all day is eat, sleep, shit, and take care of your business at the ground level... That's not important... Fire them all. Do everything by yourself, after all, that is why you're successful, right? President Obama feels this way, but since Mr. Radio-personality says these things are bad, and because President Obama feels that people that can afford to do more, should be willing to do more to help out those that help them, then he must clearly be evil. Let's call him by his middle name, as a scare tactic, because we don't have anything else both true and bad to say about the man. Let's talk about how badly he hates rich people, because we know that pisses people off.

Basically, whether you like President Obama or not, if you really listen to him, you'd understand that the man clearly is intelligent, and clearly has the best intentions in the world for bringing a positive change to the USA. The problem is that people can't get over their prejudices and racisms enough to even consider acknowledging the truth. Let the man do his fucking job! You don't like it? Why don't you run in the next campaign, Mr. Internet User, Mr. News Reporter, Mr. Radio Personality, Mr. Pussy behind a fucking microphone. Why don't you run, since you know everything. Surely you'd win, right? No? Then STFU and GTFO.

Are you suggesting a state currency?

They already tried that back in the 1700s (colony currency) and it didn't work out so well. But if your local neighborhood wants to trade in their own currency, by all means they should be allowed. It would just be a nightmare to have to change currency for those who do a lot of interstate travel (truckers, businessmen, and so on).

No one who travels across any border wants to deal with multiple currency. It's a pain in the ass. It is 100x easier to just go back to a method that works, a currency backed by a commodity, a mix of commodities, or a percentage of a commodity, and be done with it. Switzerland had a 40% gold backed Franc until 2000, had zero inflation, and was considered a very safe currency. Just a decent percentage of a currency being backed by something tangible would be a HUGE step forward. Gold, silver, palladium, copper, whatever. We have options. Why not use 25% of each?

Exactly. Saved me a post.

In fact, I think the "--" in the key part of this supposed 'quote' might be the missing "..." explaining the roads, police, public education point.

OErotica...I think you are interpreting what you hear and see to match what you already think.

When I hear people saying that if it weren't for the GOVERNMENT that you or I wouldn't be able to be successful..I just can not disagree more.

As for you underlining that my grandfather made partners and friends and together they formed an awesome team... So what? He didn't NEED them. And they didn't NEED him.

But they saw the work ethic and intelligence in each other that was higher than the common unambitious people around them.

Just like you have in your life and I have in my life. That's called 3 individuals recognizing certain qualities in each other and taking advantage of that.

Next you'll tell me that since my mom and dad fucked 9 months before my birth that THEY are responsible for my success? Or the fact that I breath air...it must be Mother Nature.

No...my business? I didn't build that! Everybody I ever knew in my life must be responsible for it right?

I'm sorry, but that is just child-like and ridiculous to me. I don't fuck around at business. I work more hours than anyone I know and I focus like an arrow. 99% of the people work for OTHER people and work for the weekend. They get done at 5 p.m. and go home and don't even THINK about work until the next day.

Me? I work all hours. All holidays. On family vacations. Just like all successful people. I am DRIVEN.

Oh great, now Charlie is trying to teach American history with fucking Monty Python clips! Oh well, it keeps him off of the playgrounds :1orglaugh
What Obama is saying is that successfully people should be ashamed of their success. Successfully people have taken their wealth from this country, not because they earned it by building a business, and he's going to take that wealth back! :disgust

Remember March 31 AL Gores's b day, he should get a gift and a card at the very least. Without that funding, you could of been the cool guy working at guitar center. :) Its not all gov and its not all free market. It goes hand in hand. If it wasn't for the gov. making college free in the 60's and 70's we may have never got a guy like Andy Grove who we all a owe a thank you too. its not cut and dry.
The middle class that most here come from was only made possible by gov funds after ww2. Medical innovation didn't boom until after medicare and the gov started pumping money into the system. Before that it was good home and die.

popcorn is ready for the next civil war ...:2 cents:

That's not true.

First off...I know you're joking about Al Gore (inventing the internet lol)

But if you think I would ever work for somebody else like that...no way. I would never be the "cool guy at Guitar Center" in a million years. One way or the other I would DO something to make great money.

Hell man...I started playing professionally in 1978. Always ran and owned my own bands. Usually 5 piece and always with a 3 man road crew. So I was always making money and paying people.

As for medical innovation not booming before medicare? Really?

I'll let Jonas Salk know that he didn't have anything to do with the polio vaccine. It was the govt.
And that Louis Pasteur guy from a few hundred years ago? What was he thinking by taking credit for stuff? lol

Medical innovation comes from the same place that ALL innovation comes from: The desire to get rich. The guy that finally cures cancer? He's gonna be a zillionaire and remembered throughout history.

Yeah I know that the govt. takes TAXPAYER (us, the people) money and is able to fund large projects. And it should. I have no quarrel with that at all. Some things are just too big to tackle without the funding.

But in every case it was INDIVIDUALS who had the brains, the skills, the ability, and the drive to make things happen.

And most times...as in everyday 24/7...most things funded by the govt. don't go anywhere and just end up costing lots of money.

And that's because the INDIVIDUALS who can really make shit happen are rare. Without that "one guy" in the mix...the govt. can spend money until the cows come home and nothing will happen (and they do)

I heard today that Canadians are now wealthier than Americans. I think that we should send Obama up there to raise your taxes and shut down your oil production and let America get back to business! :2 cents:

Rob, you KNOW that it's a very bad habit to try to introduce facts into a political discussion. History, like the constitution, is a "living document", which is shaped and molded to fit whatever the political view wishes it to be.


Shame on you. What are you? Some kind of "historical constructionist"?




.:2 cents:

Saw that today as well. They are taking advantage of their natural resources (oil and gas).

Damn shame that so many Arab countries are filthy rich too thanks to oil.

WE could be (God only know how much undiscovered oil reserves are here), but I guess keeping us poor and dependent on others is the best thing to do.

Im sorry I was wrong about electric but I stand by everything else.

The government isn't a "business"...It's government, of which Obama has almost four years experience in when it comes to the Presidency....

Also, since Romney has so much business "history", why won't he release that "history" on his tax returns?

You know I agree about the govt. being a necessary "evil". We do have to have a way to organize our society.

And I agree that EVERYBODY should pay taxes,...but equally. (income tax, in my opinion is b.s.)

My main problem is this: The govt. spends more money in a day than the biggest companies in the world make in a year. And it's NOT on roads and education and "helping" people.
Billions of dollars are spent on bloated administration jobs and bureaucratic horseshit and paperwork.
More are spent on giving "free" health care to Senators and Congressmen for life.

Untold hundreds of billions are spent on pork barrel projects (congressmen and senators funneling money back to their supporters)

And UNGODLY amounts are spent on wars and a giant military complex that isn't really needed...not to mention the "war on drugs" fiasco.

Nope...if our govt. just did roads and education and "GOOD" things...I would be happy. And we wouldn't be in debt.

But they are such crooks and so busy lining their pockets that it's just totally ludicrous.

And yet somehow...with the govt. completely bankrupt...they still find a way to "investigate" if Roger Clemens used steroids. WTF?!!?!?!

Show me this fucking "social contract" I signed fuckface. I must have been drunk. I don't remember it.

Those are all projects that were built for less money than our govt. of 2012 spends in a day.

BIG difference between the federal govt. (small and unobtrusive) of the early part of the 1900's and the over-reaching, over-controlling, over-regulating monstrosity that exists today.

NONE of those projects would even be allowed to be built today because of the governments own regulations. (witness the keystone pipeline)

This country need to end gerrymandering and institute term limits for a return to civility. Every politician votes to expand their base and weaken the other party's base. They then have to be the most extreme right/left in theie area or they are called "moderates."

Rather than make it a career. Limiting service to 12 years would be a good idea.

Just my opinion.

I'd like to see "one and done"

We don't need "career politicians" We need ordinary citizens serving their country and having a regular job the whole time and keeping their residence in their own home state.

Right now our govt. is run by full time bureaucrats. Not what was supposed to happen.

Actually, the guy who discovered the polio vaccine was part of a project set up by FDR that involved thousands of researchers, scientists, physicians, volunteers, etc. and he didn't make a dime off of it, it was never patented because the idea was to, you know, cure the disease, not become a millionaire. The guy didn't even like the fact that it made him a celebrity, he wanted his privacy.

Matter of fact, I don't think you can name one fucking inventor who was motivated by money. Einstein? Nope. Tesla? Died penniless after the money motivated Edison stole all his ideas and patented them.

This idea that the free market is the prime cause in driving innovation is bullshit.

It is the primary factor in driving innovation. "Necessity is the mother of invention". Now certainly, there are some discoveries/inventions not fueled by an immediate apparent necessity, but did they all come from government extortion (paid for by taxes)? No, Tesla in your case just did it because he had a genuine interest.

The idea that you need taxation to fund discoveries is debunked right here in this video.

Patents are only enforceable in a highly regulated market so I'm not sure you even understand what a free market is.

Denying the motivating force of economic incentives is ridiculous.

I never denied them, I said they are not the prime cause of innovation.