If we can't afford it it's BECAUSE THE RICH HAVE CHIPPED AWAY AT THEIR TAX RESPONSIBILITIES so they're now at record lows (why is Mitt hiding his tax returns?) and needless war pushed by the GOP has sucked us dry!!! That's why the money is running low!

And when Obama is reelected the economy will improve because the dirty motherfuckers in the GOP will not be able to stall the recovery for another four years. Our infrastructure is crumbling badly and America will be forced to fix it. That will give people jobs, and they'll have $$ to spend. And where will the money to pay them come from? RICH PRICKS LIKE MITT WHO MAKE MONEY HERE AND THEN HIDE IT OFFSHORE!!! And by ending the Afghanistan occupation.

Just reading a lot of folks saying that you would have to live on an island by yourself like Gilligans Island without income tax.

A yearly federal income tax (not counting national emergencies) is less than a hundred years old.
It was unconstitutional until the Congress MADE an ammendment to the constition (the 16th) legalizing it in 1913 (funny how that worked huh?)

Yes...we could build roads without taxing citizens income. Yes we would still have public education (it's paid for by property taxes). Yes, we could still have a national DEFENSE without taxing citizens individual income.
Yes, we could even have Social Security by setting up individual accounts for each citizen so it's THEIR money paying for themselves.

No...we couldn't have our military occupying over TWO HUNDRED countries. No...we couldn't have Congress having lifetime health care and benefits. No...we couldn't have every congressman having a huge staff. No...we couldn't have all the pork barrel spending that politicians funnel money back to their cronies in their home states.

But yes...we could still have roads (paid for right now by the gasoline tax that Clinton put in). And schools would still be here (paid for by local property taxes).

And politicians would have to have real jobs and spend more time at home instead of living in Washington and being in Congress for 60 years.

This is the problem. Too much money is taken from us in taxes and nothing given back. All the money goes into the military industrial complex or to the welfare state.

Really? You owe your living to Gov funded research that created the internet we have today. Then subsidies for building cable networks. Also the welfare state takes very little of the over all dollars that's the myth pushed to get you to vote against your own best interests.

But Tony...income taxes aren't the only source of govt. revenue.

If I thought that income taxes were being used for nothing except beneficial research and things that actually HELP businesses grow...then I would say that they should be a LOT lower and the economy should be roaring.

You see...you still think it's "right vs. left". That's a facade. That's the true "myth"

They are ALL crooks and all living off of you and me. They are career politicians. Not what the founding fathers ever envisioned.

As DWB said...the majority of the money goes to military and to redistribution of wealth (handouts that get votes)

Pull our military back in from trying to rule the world, stop the insane "drug war", cut the waste in entitlements and bring them back to reality, and mostly: STOP politicians from living like God's while they funnel money back to their buddies and we wouldn't NEED to have a personal income tax anymore.

Our military is not "occupying over TWO HUNDRED countries.".

You're right. Looks like the number is 150. The number SHOULD be "zero"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...ry_deployments

How about the corporate welfare state? Let's start with that. Eliminate the oil corp subsidies. Obama wanted to do that. GOP blocked it. http://articles.latimes.com/2012/mar...idies-20120330

How about this vote.
I stop paying taxes and when you come to try to cage or kill me I kill you first.

Too far? Then stop stealing my shit.



inb4 "BUT U USE DA ROADS AND DA ARMY GIV U FREEDOM"

The over whelming majority of the countries supposedly being "occupied" simply have U.S. military personnel serving as security for our embassy.

That's a good point. People on both sides of issues tend to exaggerate stuff...looks like those numbers are exaggerated on closer inspection.

But I will say this...didn't we WIN WWII? Yet we are still in Japan and Germany. :( That costs a damn fortune.

Okay, Germany made sense during the Cold War. But not now. It's a lot of money that basically does nothing but prop up the economies of Germany and Japan where the bases are located.

Also...don't get me started on Iraq. And as for Afghanistan? We just had some young soldiers killed this last week there.
Didn't we originally invade them because the Taliban refused to hand over Bin Laden (because he was married to the leaders daughter)?
We won that war in about a week. Bin Laden is now DEAD. But we NEVER leave. Ten years later and we are STILL there.

Another thing we waste money on...the war on drugs. We send troops and money down to countries in South America trying to force them to fight drug cartels. Yet the drug crop is the main money maker for millions of farmers down there. "We're gonna send troops in and helicopters to drop poisonous herbicides all over your country to kill your coca plants. You're all gonna get very sick and have birth defects. But when you feel a little better we COMMAND you to stop planting coca and start planting corn."

It's all a big fucking waste of money. And not what we are supposed to be doing or what we claim to stand for (freedom).

And then of course there is the new giant (expensive) TSA bureaucracy and all the horse shit of the "Patriot Act"

Yeah, if our govt. was this great beneficial organization that did nothing but build roads and "innovate" to allow us all to have a job (you own a business? you didn't build that!) then I would say "yeah" income tax is great!

But that isn't what's happening. While I typed this sentence we probably sent another multi-million dollar drone over some village and bombed the fuck out of it. :(

All subsidies should definitely end. But it isn't just Republicans. For instance take corn. ANY politician from a corn producing state will block it.

That's why it's gonna take a major overhaul of this whole corrupt system.

Probably never happen though.

OK we stop most of the spending and you pay less taxes. Then what.

I love you brother but remember the middle class goes bye bye that's who buys those memberships to your site. Also when W was spending and spending and Cheney was saying deficits don't matter. Ryan never said a fucking word and he was there the whole time. You are being played. There is no redistribution of wealth,you try living on $300 a month on welfare.

Examples of what Taxes created.

http://www.personal.psu.edu/spf5043/art002/big.jpg

http://newspaper.li/static/964723758...d1d7c3a560.jpg

http://dowling.mpls.k12.mn.us/upload...tRome_Full.jpg

http://www.cnd.org/Scenery/Buildings/Potala.jpg

http://www.travlang.com/blog/wp-cont...f-china_aa.jpg

http://wishididntknow.com/wp-content...2/freeway1.jpg

http://kategale.files.wordpress.com/...-landing-4.jpg

http://a.abcnews.com/images/Technolo..._120802_wg.jpg

And a ton of other things. Really if I have to tell you what, you shouldn't be posting or voting.

Everything the Government spends ends up in someone's pockets. It doesn't mysteriously disappear.

Cut taxes = Sack people and take the money out of their pockets. Or borrow more. :upsidedow

So to cut taxes will mean putting people out of work and they will be living on Government Handouts. Losing their homes and less people buying, this will cause property prices to implode. Retail will be very badly effected, so there will be no great spending boom to fuel entrepreneurs to go out and create businesses.

Yes some will have more money and will buy a $60,000 car instead of a $50,000 one. Or the equivalent. Yet their income might suffer, as less people will be buying from them. Robbie's will. Because the odds on someone now buying 2 of his memberships to replace those buying none is not on the charts.

His bill for food will go up, because the farmers growing corn will have to raise prices. This is going to trickle up to all the meat he buys. Livestock is fed on corn. And so it goes on for every cut, there's bleeding.

Just so a few can run to the Mall and buy some more imported designer clothes. :upsidedow

Lastly, this is to expose how politicians trying to get elected lie through their teeth.

Look at where a LOT of the tax dollars get spent. The companies feeding off the tax payers money. Anyone who thinks these people want to lose those contracts is delusional. Yes, who makes the boots, uniforms, arms for the guys in uniform. Now think it across the board.

Paul those ancient wonders of the world were created by SLAVERY and the "taxes" were on people whose countries were invaded and were being occupied.

And Tony...I'm not sure what info you think I'm being fed and "believe" in.

I think Bush ended up making HORRIBLE mistakes on spending. Not on taxing.

They are ALL politicians. You are the one who seems to have taken "sides" in a con game that really doesn't have any "side" if you can just step back and really look at what they do with money.

IF the military was reigned back in and truly just for "national defense" (we haven't been invaded since the war of 1812 by the way), and IF entitlement programs were reformed, and IF tax reform was to happen...
Please explain how that makes the "middle class go bye-bye"

????

The middle class would still have the same country and set of circumstances they had before this whole thing started spiraling out of control (in my opinion it started during the 1960's and is now like a freight train with no brakes)

There is absolutely no reason that having LESS govt. spending would somehow cause the middle class to go "bye-bye".

I've said it over and over...make a business environment in the U.S. that is beneficial to business and business will happen. That's all that's needed. Have the govt. do the minimum needed to ensure safety and legality.

We don't need to spend trillions on "defense". And we have to figure out how to make current entitlement programs stabilize.
You can't tax your way out of this.

The more money the govt. TAKES from people, the less money people have. It's not brain surgery. And the govt. is NOT spending that money in a beneficial way. They spend just enough on "good" things to shut people up. The vast majority is spent on military and drug wars and pork barrel corruption.

I don't want to give MY money for that kind of shit. Do you? :)

Go do some more research about the slavery part. Yes invading people makes money.

You maybe never heard of the Jews being in slavery to the Egyptians?

The Roman coliseum was built by 20,000 Jewish slaves that Roman emperor Titus purchased.

Also if you google up ancient Greece and slaves...you will see that most work was done by slaves in Greece.

I thought that everyone knew that ancient wonders of the world were built by slave labor? Slavery didn't get started with black people being slaves. There were thousands of years of slavery before that.

Anyway Paul...you're wrong. The wonderful governments just taxing people didn't build that stuff (though they probably did buy the slaves with the taxes they put on occupied countries_.

On June 21st 2018 a powerful laser will travel 5785 light years through space striking the pyramids. This will release the lizard people and JohnnyClips will be the new world leader.

Stop believing everything you read in the Bible. They have proof it was built by Egyptians who were well cared for and worked in between farming. Wheat was the source of their wealth.

Slaves provide the sweat and toil. Paid craftsman produce the beauty.

We know. But the craftsmen were educated people and not slaves.

You have a very blinkered and even that's wrong about economics. So a little refresher.

95% of the money the Government spends goes into America. It doesn't disappear. You might argue with the % figure, but that doesn't change much.

Government Spending = $6.3 trillion http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/
Annully borrowed. = $1 trillion and rising http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/text/2018906819.html
US GDP = $15.09 http://www.google.com/publicdata/exp...hl=en&q=us+gdp

Taxes don't raise enough, so Governments borrow more to make up the gap.

So cut taxes. Does that mean a cut in spending? If it does, it will take money out of someone's pocket. To transfer it to yours.

Over 1/3 of the US GDP is now flowing from tax or borrowed dollars. Every cut = someone losing money. Who gets fired or what doesn't get paid for to put some money into your pockets and takes food off the table of someone else. You seem to think $6.3 trillion goes up in smoke, it doesn't. It goes to fund 1/3 of the US GDP.

You see for every action, their are consequences. As for fuelling more spending (by you). It means someone else spends less. Just Multiply it by all the people getting some of the $6.3 trillion in their wage check. It hasn't created any demand. It's only changed the people buying. It will actually lead to less demand. Those getting the tax cuts will just buy the same amount of goods, or similar. Just better quality. How many Fridges, TVs, Cars, etc can you own?

To those who think everything comes free.



Action = reaction.

Great post. Thanks for that.:thumbsup

Except all those ancient wonders of the world were built with slave labor.

If Ryan's tax plan were passed as is, Romney's 2010 tax rate would have been less than 1%. Meanwhile taxes on the middle class would rise. That is not conjecture or a guess, it is a simple fact of applying the exact details of Ryan's plan to Mitt's 2010 tax return (the only one he has made available to voters).
http://blogs.ajc.com/jay-bookman-blo...e-1-as-in-one/


Add in obscene student loans that have nothing to do with the cost of education and can not be discharged by bankruptcy, tag on social security taxes and payroll taxes that disproportionately hit working people, figure in the impossible cost of end of life care for people who have no medical insurance which brings most estates to bankruptcy and what you have is a Ryan trajectory that very much seeks to return most people to a life of indentured servitude.

I wonder what great wonders will be built by American economic Slaves during this century. :2 cents:

1. People like Romney make most of their money with capital gains. Would you like to raise the rates on capital gain taxes?

2. Student loans...the cost of higher education just coincidentally rose like crazy the minute the federal govt. got involved with student loans. The whole system is fucked up from the get-go. Just like medical care...the problem isn't the rates on student loans. The problem is that universities are overcharging so much that you NEED a student loan to go to college in the first place.

3. No great wonders will ever be built in our lifetime. Ecological groups make sure of that. The govt. would NOT build the Panama Canal in 2012. Nor the Hoover Dam. Or pretty much anything else. Hell, they can't even let a private company build the Keystone pipeline.
But pretty much every "big" impressive thing the U.S. ever built would be illegal to build under current federal regulations.

Romney will lose so bad come November, your fucking heads will spin!

Count on it!

A national sales tax is by far the best way to go. We should be taxing consumption not income. If you are poor and buy little, you pay little. If you are poor but spend a lot, you pay a lot. Same thing if you are rich. It would encourage people to save money and cause people who spend the most money to pay the most in taxes. A millionaire and a poor person would pay the same exact amount of taxes on a flat screen television.

Some items would be tax exempt for everyone (like basic foods needed to survive), other items would be subject to a luxury surtax from anyone, like owning a very heavy gas-guzzling vehicle that erodes our roads faster than a standard vehicle (whether it's a wealthy guy in a new hummer or a poor guy in a 1970s stationwagon) .... but every person would pay the exact same tax amount on the same item no matter who bought it - and it would make no difference how you earned your money, only how you spent it.

The real problem is that student loans are not discharged by bankruptcy. That makes them very safe investments. Private universities are now bundling and packing their loan documents on a derivative market much the same way mortgage companies did with home loans... but these can't be discharged. The solution is a simple law that ties the amount any university can charge to the amount they spend on each student... much like the law that now requires insurance premium increases to be tied to the amount of money spent by the insurer on the insured.

You are confused. Those groups will all fold soon enough. Citizens United, the destruction of unions and the rise of super PACs means you can now fund a presidential campaign with only a handful of ultra-wealthy sponsors. When 10 or 12 people can fund the election of a president and congress, the president and congress will do whatever those 10 or 12 people want. The koch brothers are leading the charge... they are oil men. The environment is on borrowed time. Just ask BP about the oil spill that nobody ever went to jail for.... :2 cents:

Relentless, I agree 100% on your first two points.

On your third point...I hope that we do indeed get rid of SOME of the environmental regulations. I think they were needed...and then (like everything) went too far.

The devil is in the details. We should get rid of some and add others. That doesn't matter a lick until we have people in congress and the whitehouse whose goal is to add the right ones and remove the right ones. The first step to getting that is to yank the money out of the election system.

Citizens United is the most important political event in the entire history of our country (that is not hyperbole). It will in fact end our democracy within 100 years. It allows corporations or wealthy individuals to give an unlimited amount of money AND not disclose who they gave it to. When Goldman Sachs gives 1Billion to each candidate in the presidential election and neither Goldman nor the candidates have to tell anyone it happened... who do you think the president will be listening to... regardless of which 'party' wins.

Everything else is a distraction for the sheep :2 cents:

Dick Cheney was a contemptible douche bag. He was a greedy, manipulative, lying, power hungry, war profiteering ass, who literally shot his fucking friend in the fucking face!

Ryan on the other hand, is much more dangerous. He claims to be in it for HIS OWN morality decisions, which should send shivers down the spine of anyone in the "adult industry".

Also, W would drink a beer and snort a line once in a while, while Mittens is so fucked up, he's a fucking MORMON!

Think about that shit for a bit, before you respond.

Thank you.

Tax cuts. = Less spending by Government.

Less spending by Government. = Cuts in jobs.

People getting an extra $50 a week in their wage packet = More imports.

It's simplified, yet look at places that have cut spending and the job losses that have resulted. Spain, Greece, Portugal, Eire, UK. The Dogma of cutting taxes will lead to more spending more jobs, is going back to the times when most goods in US shops were made in the US. Now they're made outside the US, it's an old fashioned model.

So shuffle where the taxes are paid. You still pay the same amount or maybe more if it's a sales tax. You being so wealthy. :Oh crap

Would make sense if your private medical care wasn't the most expensive in the world. :Oh crap

And less would be built if their were tax cuts. :Oh crap

We could rape the Earth more just to put some more money in your pocket so you can buy an even bigger gas guzzling SUV. Which is likely to be imported or built from imported parts in the US. Should I remind you of the Gulf of Mexico Oil Spill or Exon Valdiz?

Or the present mess which was private bankers without enough Government control gambling the world close to a Depression and the Governments bailing us all out. They could of let them sink and us with them.

Bring the troops home and stop fighting wars.
And then what? Build extra barracks or fire them? Stop shooting American bullets, missiles, etc to allow people to get tax cuts. Great ideas, more people can buy even more imported jobs while 10,000 of troops are unemployed and workers in arms factories join them. Great combination to put on the streets.

What Robbie has failed to show where cutting taxes will bring more prosperity to the USA or for that matter the EU. We both now import far far too much and more money in shoppers pockets = more imports. The Chinese will love you for it.

Sadly the sheep are impressed by the big spending campaigns don't see who is paying and realise why.

30-40 years ago I would of loved to get tax cuts. It was a time when the UK imported far less and exported far more. So spending in the shops would lead to more production in the UK. Today it's a different world.

So will anyone here asking for tax cuts in any way lie to support those cuts by losing even more customers, or having their roads repaired less or less policemen on their streets, etc? Or maybe all of these cut backs in spendings.

Would they support a Government department with the task of tracking down sites primarily using piracy to turn a profit or the payment processors and advertisers on the piracy site? AK is doing a tremendous job, yet it's always "Wack a Mole" until the big arm of Government get's involved. Visa could exterminate most in a few weeks.