So Right
 

Paul people give you grief here all the time, but for a guy from Europe, you got this right.
Worst was things like the Savings & Loan nightmare where the government took over their loans and mortgages. Even profitable loans were foreclosed and sold off for 10 cents on the dollar. Thank you Reagan for the financial mess. Thank you Nixon for extending the Viet Nam war an extra 8 years. Thank you McCarthy for those "300 Communist"s in the State Department. Thank you Calvin Coolidge & Herbert Hoover giving us the Great Depression. See the trend here? All Republicans.

technically no. it's immoral.

You work for your money, you should not have to give it to the government so they can distribute it to poor people that don't work.


That's the biggest problem we face in the world today. Two thousand years of religious philosophy has taught us to be altruistic which is completely against the natural order.

In every species on this planet it is the worker that survives and thrives, the busy bee, the industrious ant.

Teaching the poor to be dependent on the rich actually does great harm to them and to society as a whole. We need to have in place only a necessary security blanket.

How anyone can be enthusiastic about any American politician these days is beyond me. You have to be near brain dead to be passionate about ANY of these crooks and ego maniacs.

It doesn't occur to you that some of these taxes have gone to things that have helped businesses thrive and have helped wealthy people make some of their money?

Do you purpose a tax-free government with no national defense, no nationally paid for education, no federally funded roads, bridges, damns etc?

Sure, it certainly occurs to me that the money derived via the theft from others have benefited businesses and individuals alike. Does that mean it's justified?

Defense and private security could exist without the forced extraction of money from its citizens.

Education on a public level has proven to be an atrocity in effectiveness.

Roads, bridges and all of that could be built and maintained by businesses. Do some research on Anarcho-Capitalism.

Then lets here it.

How do we pay for all of this without taxes? I'm not bashing, just genuinely interested. I think the taxes are too high, but when I look around see what most people pay, they get a lot back for what they put in and if each of us was expected to pay their fair share the average person could never afford it.

That is such bullshit. There are too many people who pat themselves on the back for working hard, while imagining throngs of people living the good life collecting free money from the government. It's a fantasy. Get over yourself.

Why aren't you bitching about how long you have to work to pay for ExxonMobil subsidies? Or the massive, bloated, pork-filled "defense" budget?

What borrowed money? I told you, it's stolen; not borrowed. It's going to other individuals.

What part of what I said confuses you?


Why would a business choose to ship jobs over seas? Because they hate america? Nah, because business is cheaper in other regions of the world.

How do we fix this problem? Hmm, perhaps we get rid of the minimum wage laws? Maybe get rid of regulations? Yeah, that's how. Because if you think about it, how is it anyone's right (including the state) to tell two consenting adults that they can't have an employer/employee relationship together?

Please, please, please watch this video to understand exactly how minimum wage laws hurt Americans:



You're talking about people who currently don't make any money? Or people who currently receive stolen money (tax) from others via the form of welfare? Sorry, I'm not exactly sympathetic towards those people.

Also, if you go and try to make the claim that people would starve if we're not providing them welfare, you're incorrect. Without taxation, voluntary contributions would be much higher than they are now as more people would have more money in the bank. No one would need to starve.


Nope, because we've pretty much always had taxes. But to say because we've always had taxes, means that we must always have taxes is the most ridiculous and illogical argument I've ever heard. Anarchy does not mean without rules, it means without rulers. That's a very important distinction to be made.

Instead of making broad-sweeping statements like that, try to refute the aspects of my argument(s) that are of nonsense to you. It just makes you look foolish.


Haha, yeah, it works so well, it's not as if nations right now are currently crumbling under debt. Taxation is theft of its citizens, it always has been and always will be.

This is assuming of course that "government inspectors" always do what's right. Unfortunately we've seen time and time again, they don't. They're corruptible, they abuse power, and they're inefficient.

Jesus!

Public education has been a tremendous success! That's why every 1st world nation on Earth has it!

And how could the infrastructure and defense exist without taxes??

Insanity.

Go live on an island by yourself. You won't have to pay a penny. Think how great life will be. Think how much you'll save! Live off the land. Make a coconut-powered pedal car.

If the crew from Gilligan's Island can do it... :1orglaugh

That actually widely-believed bullshit. It was about 7 months.

http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast....two-years.html

Well first I'm glad you're genuinely interested.

And also, it's very important for me to point out that worrying about the consequences of eliminating immoral acts is irrelevant. If you agree that it's wrong to kidnap (imprison) people because they do not consent to giving a group of individuals a % of their income (the state, much like how the mafia operates), then is it really relevant to worry about the potential consequences that may arise by eliminating that immorality?

As I've said before, people actually made the argument "Who will pick the cotton if we end slavery?"

But to entertain your question from a consequentialist point of view, who fights fires? who builds roads and bridges? who provides security?

People do. People would continue to solve these problems, except they wouldn't be funded through theft.

Think about something for a second... What if Sex.com was the only provider in which we could legally view adult content online? What if they had no competition? What if competition were made illegal? They wouldn't have an incentive to really improve their product or customer service.

This is the reason it takes an atrocity for a police officer to be fired, it's why we see the USPS in such a horrible shape that it is now, it's also the reason we see the state itself in a 16 trillion+ debt.

In a stateless/free/voluntary society, how would roads and bridges be paid for? How would services that are currently "public" be provided privately? There are many debates/approaches, and many of which arguably could work; the free market would ultimately decide the best path, as competition naturally chooses the winners.

Roads / Bridges:
http://www.reddit.com/r/Anarcho_Capi...restrict_sr=on
http://www.5stepstoanarchy.com/what-about-the-roads/

Security / Police:
http://mises.org/journals/jls/14_1/14_1_2.pdf

Fighting fires:
http://www.reddit.com/r/Anarcho_Capi...e_departments/

I don't want to change my geographical location, I have no problem with the area in which I live (aside from being too cold sometimes). I'd rather seek to change the way in which my presence here is controlled.

If public education is such a tremendous success, why is it that home schooled children are proven to have a higher IQ?

Infrastructure and defense can and would exist without the theft of its citizens, the only difference is it'd be provided in a much more efficient manner.

I guess I look at it a different way. These are laws by which this country runs. If you don't like them you are free to either leave or work to change them. I don't see taxes as being something that is on par with theft, but I do think that much of our tax money is wasted and if the government were smaller and ran more efficiently taxes could be much lower.


While I understand that competition, in theory, makes a product or service better over time, there are some things I think it could cause problems with. A while back I was watching something on the history channel about the early stages of the fire department and how you had to basically buy a membership to the department in order to get service. So if you house was on fire and a competing fire department that you were not a member of showed up to the scene first you either had to pay them as well or they would just sit and watch your house burn.

The same kind of thing could happen with police. If I call them and tell them someone is breaking into house do they check to see if my membership is paid up before they call. What if there are multiple competing departments and the one I am a member of happens to be busy? Is there a central dispatch and who pays for that.

I can see where you are going with this in that a combination of volunteers and things like HOA fees and such could pay for local police and fire. . . but how is that different than a tax? If my HOA is going to charge me $100 per year to be a member of my local police department how is that different than the government just taking $100 from my taxes and giving it to the police.

What about those who are too poor to afford the service? Are they just fucked or do they get a pass and get it for free? If we are giving free passes who decides which people get them and which people don't?

I see where you are coming from with the roads, but is that not just another form of forcing taxes on the business owner? Now it isn't enough that you have to take the risk to put your own money forth to build a business, but you also have to have enough to build and upkeep the roads around the business you have built. So do local businesses also have to pay to pave the suburbs and surrounding areas? If not is that up to the people?

Lastly, what about education? I won't for a second suggest that we have a first rate public school system. It is desperate need of repair. It is bloated, corrupt and doesn't work that well. We can do a lot better. However, if education were left solely to individuals, many could not afford to send their kids to school so they would be stuck homeschooling them or they would have to find some kind of charity school. I don't think it would be long before those charity schools were overfull and turning people away.

Part of the reason private school costs half as much as public school on a per child basis is because they have the luxury of cherry picking the best students. When you have to deal with the masses it is an entirely different situation.

We haven't even touched on defense. Who is going to put up the cash to build and upkeep things like aircraft carries and to pay for all of our military expenses? You could cut the size of our military in half and it would still be something that cost 700 billion. That is a lot of cash.

I'm also assuming we just ditch medicare, medicaid and social security and assume people who are sick and old will either have family, friends or charities that take care of them?

I think some of your ideas have some merit, but to me they only work when you are talking about a small, controlled group. When you are talking about a huge country (physical size) with over 320 million people in it, it doesn't work out so well.

You've said some ridiculous things in this thread but this ones the funniest yet. Most home schooled kids are taught by their whacked out religious anti-social mom preparing them for the coming of christ. Show me one scientist that was home schooled.

Then go live in a cave and don't use anything that's part of the "system" like the Internet.

A lot of people think like Mike. Short sighted greed. How much of the US tax budget goes to the Unemployed? The money that goes into their pockets. Not the administration of it.

Then imagine the problems if you took that money away from them. you would need to spend more on defence from them coming to Mike's house to take what he has. And they have more reason to steal it and guns according to the propaganda. Then what about the places they spend the money, they go bankrupt. The people who are part of the administration, they're out of a job. With no support or do we keep paying them to do nothing.

And why are there so many unemployed in the West? Take the shirt off your back and look at the label and see if it was made in the West. Or just turn your keyboard over.

You have no clue how essential it is today.

Are you really that crazy.

Not in places with a good public education. So you're solution is to hand everything over to the rich.

Yes it could and you would have to pay for every mile you drive. Or do you think the private ownership would save you money?

This guy wants to go back to the days of everything being in the hands of big business or even further back to the times of private armies.

Well that would be before America was anything but a settlement under the rule of the English, with their Army paid for out of the King's funds and led by General who paid for the rank. For America to become Independent it took an Army, paid for by who?

So let's go back to the English Civil War. Were taxes raised to fight that?

To make sure we get it right. The times of Lord and Barons. No there were taxes then. So back we go. GS, give us more insight on your vision of a world without taxes. </sarcasm>

One of the problems with Americans is they still see taxes through the eyes of the Boston Teaparty times. Taxes were taken from the population to give to the English rulers. different world today. Taxes are taken to keep your wheels turning.

i feel bad for mitt romney. Ryan is going to outshine him exactly the way palin overshadowed mccain. All the big crowds will be there for ryan, not for mitt. & Fox news? forget about it.

If we can't afford it it's BECAUSE THE RICH HAVE CHIPPED AWAY AT THEIR TAX RESPONSIBILITIES so they're now at record lows (why is Mitt hiding his tax returns?) and needless war pushed by the GOP has sucked us dry!!! That's why the money is running low!

And when Obama is reelected the economy will improve because the dirty motherfuckers in the GOP will not be able to stall the recovery for another four years. Our infrastructure is crumbling badly and America will be forced to fix it. That will give people jobs, and they'll have $$ to spend. And where will the money to pay them come from? RICH PRICKS LIKE MITT WHO MAKE MONEY HERE AND THEN HIDE IT OFFSHORE!!! And by ending the Afghanistan occupation.

Just reading a lot of folks saying that you would have to live on an island by yourself like Gilligans Island without income tax.

A yearly federal income tax (not counting national emergencies) is less than a hundred years old.
It was unconstitutional until the Congress MADE an ammendment to the constition (the 16th) legalizing it in 1913 (funny how that worked huh?)

Yes...we could build roads without taxing citizens income. Yes we would still have public education (it's paid for by property taxes). Yes, we could still have a national DEFENSE without taxing citizens individual income.
Yes, we could even have Social Security by setting up individual accounts for each citizen so it's THEIR money paying for themselves.

No...we couldn't have our military occupying over TWO HUNDRED countries. No...we couldn't have Congress having lifetime health care and benefits. No...we couldn't have every congressman having a huge staff. No...we couldn't have all the pork barrel spending that politicians funnel money back to their cronies in their home states.

But yes...we could still have roads (paid for right now by the gasoline tax that Clinton put in). And schools would still be here (paid for by local property taxes).

And politicians would have to have real jobs and spend more time at home instead of living in Washington and being in Congress for 60 years.

This is the problem. Too much money is taken from us in taxes and nothing given back. All the money goes into the military industrial complex or to the welfare state.

Really? You owe your living to Gov funded research that created the internet we have today. Then subsidies for building cable networks. Also the welfare state takes very little of the over all dollars that's the myth pushed to get you to vote against your own best interests.

But Tony...income taxes aren't the only source of govt. revenue.

If I thought that income taxes were being used for nothing except beneficial research and things that actually HELP businesses grow...then I would say that they should be a LOT lower and the economy should be roaring.

You see...you still think it's "right vs. left". That's a facade. That's the true "myth"

They are ALL crooks and all living off of you and me. They are career politicians. Not what the founding fathers ever envisioned.

As DWB said...the majority of the money goes to military and to redistribution of wealth (handouts that get votes)

Pull our military back in from trying to rule the world, stop the insane "drug war", cut the waste in entitlements and bring them back to reality, and mostly: STOP politicians from living like God's while they funnel money back to their buddies and we wouldn't NEED to have a personal income tax anymore.

Our military is not "occupying over TWO HUNDRED countries.".

You're right. Looks like the number is 150. The number SHOULD be "zero"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...ry_deployments

How about the corporate welfare state? Let's start with that. Eliminate the oil corp subsidies. Obama wanted to do that. GOP blocked it. http://articles.latimes.com/2012/mar...idies-20120330

How about this vote.
I stop paying taxes and when you come to try to cage or kill me I kill you first.

Too far? Then stop stealing my shit.



inb4 "BUT U USE DA ROADS AND DA ARMY GIV U FREEDOM"

The over whelming majority of the countries supposedly being "occupied" simply have U.S. military personnel serving as security for our embassy.

That's a good point. People on both sides of issues tend to exaggerate stuff...looks like those numbers are exaggerated on closer inspection.

But I will say this...didn't we WIN WWII? Yet we are still in Japan and Germany. :( That costs a damn fortune.

Okay, Germany made sense during the Cold War. But not now. It's a lot of money that basically does nothing but prop up the economies of Germany and Japan where the bases are located.

Also...don't get me started on Iraq. And as for Afghanistan? We just had some young soldiers killed this last week there.
Didn't we originally invade them because the Taliban refused to hand over Bin Laden (because he was married to the leaders daughter)?
We won that war in about a week. Bin Laden is now DEAD. But we NEVER leave. Ten years later and we are STILL there.

Another thing we waste money on...the war on drugs. We send troops and money down to countries in South America trying to force them to fight drug cartels. Yet the drug crop is the main money maker for millions of farmers down there. "We're gonna send troops in and helicopters to drop poisonous herbicides all over your country to kill your coca plants. You're all gonna get very sick and have birth defects. But when you feel a little better we COMMAND you to stop planting coca and start planting corn."

It's all a big fucking waste of money. And not what we are supposed to be doing or what we claim to stand for (freedom).

And then of course there is the new giant (expensive) TSA bureaucracy and all the horse shit of the "Patriot Act"

Yeah, if our govt. was this great beneficial organization that did nothing but build roads and "innovate" to allow us all to have a job (you own a business? you didn't build that!) then I would say "yeah" income tax is great!

But that isn't what's happening. While I typed this sentence we probably sent another multi-million dollar drone over some village and bombed the fuck out of it. :(

All subsidies should definitely end. But it isn't just Republicans. For instance take corn. ANY politician from a corn producing state will block it.

That's why it's gonna take a major overhaul of this whole corrupt system.

Probably never happen though.

OK we stop most of the spending and you pay less taxes. Then what.

I love you brother but remember the middle class goes bye bye that's who buys those memberships to your site. Also when W was spending and spending and Cheney was saying deficits don't matter. Ryan never said a fucking word and he was there the whole time. You are being played. There is no redistribution of wealth,you try living on $300 a month on welfare.

Examples of what Taxes created.

http://www.personal.psu.edu/spf5043/art002/big.jpg

http://newspaper.li/static/964723758...d1d7c3a560.jpg

http://dowling.mpls.k12.mn.us/upload...tRome_Full.jpg

http://www.cnd.org/Scenery/Buildings/Potala.jpg

http://www.travlang.com/blog/wp-cont...f-china_aa.jpg

http://wishididntknow.com/wp-content...2/freeway1.jpg

http://kategale.files.wordpress.com/...-landing-4.jpg

http://a.abcnews.com/images/Technolo..._120802_wg.jpg

And a ton of other things. Really if I have to tell you what, you shouldn't be posting or voting.

Everything the Government spends ends up in someone's pockets. It doesn't mysteriously disappear.

Cut taxes = Sack people and take the money out of their pockets. Or borrow more. :upsidedow

So to cut taxes will mean putting people out of work and they will be living on Government Handouts. Losing their homes and less people buying, this will cause property prices to implode. Retail will be very badly effected, so there will be no great spending boom to fuel entrepreneurs to go out and create businesses.

Yes some will have more money and will buy a $60,000 car instead of a $50,000 one. Or the equivalent. Yet their income might suffer, as less people will be buying from them. Robbie's will. Because the odds on someone now buying 2 of his memberships to replace those buying none is not on the charts.

His bill for food will go up, because the farmers growing corn will have to raise prices. This is going to trickle up to all the meat he buys. Livestock is fed on corn. And so it goes on for every cut, there's bleeding.

Just so a few can run to the Mall and buy some more imported designer clothes. :upsidedow

Lastly, this is to expose how politicians trying to get elected lie through their teeth.

Look at where a LOT of the tax dollars get spent. The companies feeding off the tax payers money. Anyone who thinks these people want to lose those contracts is delusional. Yes, who makes the boots, uniforms, arms for the guys in uniform. Now think it across the board.

Paul those ancient wonders of the world were created by SLAVERY and the "taxes" were on people whose countries were invaded and were being occupied.

And Tony...I'm not sure what info you think I'm being fed and "believe" in.

I think Bush ended up making HORRIBLE mistakes on spending. Not on taxing.

They are ALL politicians. You are the one who seems to have taken "sides" in a con game that really doesn't have any "side" if you can just step back and really look at what they do with money.

IF the military was reigned back in and truly just for "national defense" (we haven't been invaded since the war of 1812 by the way), and IF entitlement programs were reformed, and IF tax reform was to happen...
Please explain how that makes the "middle class go bye-bye"

????

The middle class would still have the same country and set of circumstances they had before this whole thing started spiraling out of control (in my opinion it started during the 1960's and is now like a freight train with no brakes)

There is absolutely no reason that having LESS govt. spending would somehow cause the middle class to go "bye-bye".

I've said it over and over...make a business environment in the U.S. that is beneficial to business and business will happen. That's all that's needed. Have the govt. do the minimum needed to ensure safety and legality.

We don't need to spend trillions on "defense". And we have to figure out how to make current entitlement programs stabilize.
You can't tax your way out of this.

The more money the govt. TAKES from people, the less money people have. It's not brain surgery. And the govt. is NOT spending that money in a beneficial way. They spend just enough on "good" things to shut people up. The vast majority is spent on military and drug wars and pork barrel corruption.

I don't want to give MY money for that kind of shit. Do you? :)

Go do some more research about the slavery part. Yes invading people makes money.

You maybe never heard of the Jews being in slavery to the Egyptians?

The Roman coliseum was built by 20,000 Jewish slaves that Roman emperor Titus purchased.

Also if you google up ancient Greece and slaves...you will see that most work was done by slaves in Greece.

I thought that everyone knew that ancient wonders of the world were built by slave labor? Slavery didn't get started with black people being slaves. There were thousands of years of slavery before that.

Anyway Paul...you're wrong. The wonderful governments just taxing people didn't build that stuff (though they probably did buy the slaves with the taxes they put on occupied countries_.

On June 21st 2018 a powerful laser will travel 5785 light years through space striking the pyramids. This will release the lizard people and JohnnyClips will be the new world leader.