Wrong again Johnny.

A historian looks at all of the available evidence, official and otherwise. It is the historians duty to investigate the validity of the official version of events.

Why do you think that the politicians and generals from WWI are so roundly despised and mocked for their ridiculous ans murderous policies ? The official version at the time was completely different. The official version was as far from the truth as you could imagine. It is the revision that historical study gives us that brought out the real truth.

It was Historical study of all of the evidence that showed us the cowardice and monumental stupidity that sent millions of young men to their pathetic miserable deaths. It is The rigour of historical investigation that brought out the actual truth.

So your theory holds no water whatsoever.

However WWII and the holocaust is the most studied event in all of history. No other period has been investigated by more poeple in such details. Libraries full of books have been written, mountains of documents have been studied.

And then you Johnny dismiss the whole thing with a shake of your stupid head because you have an unfailing dogma which explains everything for you.

Dont you see who is the one with the closed mind here Johnny ?

The one who cannot think for himself ?

The one who is brainwashed ?

You have the same dogmatic answer for everything - but it not something you even thought of yourself !

Do you really not see the irony ?

:helpme

Do you not see the irony of defending and making the case for historical revision and 'uncovering truth' while writing off revisionists of this particular historical event?

I am writing it off based on the evidence.

Not because it suits my ideology.

There is a big difference.

So you're assuming that everyone who 'revises' history is doing it for totally academic and un-ideological reasons. Except when it comes to this particular event, whereupon ideology can be the only possible reason?

And BTW, why does it even matter what the ideology or motivation of the historian is, if what they uncover turns out to be factually correct?

There are differences in the types of casualties. Some were military, and others were innocent civilians who were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Some civilians died because of a complete lack of infrastructure as the war passed through their area - no government agencies, rampant disease, starvation, freezing to death, etc. Keep in mind that the war passed through various countries - such as France and Poland - and after military forces passed through there was no functioning government. The amount of loss here was staggering, and not only in human life.

But the difference is the Jews were intentionally targeted. It's mind blowing that a military power can choose and pick one race and attempt to dispose of them either by moving them, forcing them into harsh manual labor until they die, starving them to death, or just outright killing them. Imagine if the local police come to your house because of your nationality, arrest you and your entire family by force, and take you to be locked up in prison or worse to be killed. You did nothing wrong, but that's irrelevant - You have been sentenced to death just because of your nationality.

And it wasn't only Jews either. My grandmother's entire family was Polish, and her entire family was singled out and murdered and their house burned to the ground. They didn't have the luxury of going to a prison camp or even straight to the gas chambers; They were killed on the spot in their house - mother, father, brothers, and sisters. My grandmother was the only one who lived and by the end of the war she had moved to the US.

^ You spend two paragraphs trying to disagree with him, then finish by making exactly the fucking point he made, because you happened to remember non-Jewish people in your family were victims. :Oh crap

The people who revise and deny the holocaust are not "alternative historians" they are not historians at all, they are fascists lying about the past.

They ignore the evidence and lie about facts that all real historians agree upon, historians from every political view point (except fascist )

The Jews communists homosexuals, Russians, Poles did not vanish into thin air, they were murdered in an industrial murder factory during a war German, Italian and Spanish fascist waged on the World from 1930 on wards.

The camps are still there, the gas cambers too, I have seen them with my own eyes, I have met the survivors, I met the first cameraman who shot the footage in Belson concentration camp.

The Germans denied when it was happening, they were made to look and forced to admit the truth. We owe it to the victims that we do not let the truth be distorted by the very murderers who did the crime.

^ Spain didn't wage war on anyone in WWII.

There is a body of evidence that supports the broad theory that there was an officially sanctioned state powered policy of eliminating the Jewish people from the countries occupied by Nazi Germany during WWII.

Early evidence begins in the late 20's with Mein Kampf, the rise of National Socialism, the Stormtroopers, the street battles against the communists. The Nazis begin to have some democratic success and Hitler eventually becomes chancellor. Throughout this period his speeches and writing are filmed and widely reported in German and foreign press. His anti semitism is a central part of the political narrative. The first concentration camp is opened within weeks of Hitler taking office.
Then as soon power is cemented via imprisonment and murder of his rivals the lot of the Jews of europe takes significant turn for the worse. The Nuremberg laws remove Jews from positions of authority and ban them from owning property.
After the invasion of Poland and the outbreak of war the Jewish problem becomes acute for the Nazi leadership. The sheer numbers of Jews they are encountering in the conquered territories of the east (5m in Poland alone) drives them to increasingly barbourous acts. Commando groups are formed from particularly ardent anti semitic members of the SS, they roam the villages of Eastern Europe murdering whole communities wherever they find Jewish settlements. However this policy is slow and inefficient. A final solution is required.
The Warsaw ghetto is emptied and the wholesale industrial murder is now in full flow.


I could go on. Everything above is documented by the Nazis themselves. In their own newspapers and Nazi propaganda news films. Nothing is denied or challenged. Eye witness accounts are available. The body of evidence is enormous including the documents and official orders that detail the costs of transport and disposal of the Jews, and the expected return from the theft of their goods, clothes, hair, and teeth.

So I have no ideological axe to grind. But I know what my eyes tell me. I know that huge numbers of Jews perished at the hands Nazi Germany.

The dogs in the street know this.

:2 cents:

So then kindly provide me the evidence of gasschambers.
I have to remind you that eyewitness account are no evidence in any court of law without additional evidence.
All the "gaschambers" that are shown these days are built AFTER the war.


And for someone who can not even give the defenition of "The Holocaust" yuo have a big mouth but can not even give a defenition of something you claim to have evidence.

http://www.gensuikin.org/panel/13.jpg

http://www.gensuikin.org/panel/3.jpg

I am a denier of a moral high ground for war:

hard to find pics of kids! wonder if it was being.. suppressed..

All you do is repeat the text from american propaganda, now please come with 1 official document stating millions of jews were gassed.

Show some of this orders from the nazis where they send jews to be gassed please i like to see them i have been searchng for years and years but can not find anything else then unspecific claims like yours.
You talk about evidenc but can not show anything where is the disconect?

Do you know there are curently also 5 million sets of civilian closes stored in americnan jails... not because they are gonna be killed by dear but just because they have to wear prison clothing.

Eisenhouwers deathcamps:
http://www.davidicke.com/images/stor..._2010/camp.jpg
4 million german soldiers starved to death after the war had ended.

The broad theory of WWI is that the Allies won and the Central Powers lost. What does that have to do with "cowardice and monumental stupidity" on the part of officers during the war?

History is not just about "broad theories", it's about details. People still believe in soap and lampshades to this day. Why is it desirable that people still believe something that is a lie? The Holocaust was a terrible enough event without needing ridiculous myths to 'support' it.

Why is it acceptable to examine and discuss the numbers of people killed in every other event in history, but not the Holocaust?

You said yourself "large" numbers of Jews died. Who is denying that?

Could you? Because that reads like it's from a book or transcript.

So many such events have taken place, but we only hear about them if they're of use politically

Bombing of totaly civilian city of dresden where all the refugees fled because it had no army targets.
Resulting in the burning of 500 000 civilian refugees:

http://www.subvertednation.net/wp-co...of-dresden.jpg

http://www.realityreviewed.com/Dresden%201945%202.gif

"Liberator" churchil wanted to poisongass many mny millions of german civilians:

I should be prepared to do anything [Churchill's emphasis] that would hit the enemy in a murderous place. I may certainly have to ask you to support me in using poison gas. We could drench the cities of the Ruhr and many other cities in Germany ..., and if we do it, let us do it one hundred per cent.

—Winston Churchill, 'Most Secret' PRIME MINISTER'S PERSONAL MINUTE to the Chiefs of Staff, 6 July 1944[4]

wow

never heard that

Exactly he repeats broad theories but presents them as facts, while they are just conspiracy theories without evidence.

Text from American propaganda ? Not sure what you mean by that.

Show you the evidence ? Where to start, well I suppose that any decent sized library would be a good place to start. But if you want more in depth information university libraries would be better. Now I am not saying that you must believe every word, but I am sure that you will be able to cross reference the evidence, and then check out the official archives that are quoted and refered to.

Tell me what would it take for you to believe ?

Would you tell me that an official Nazi document was forged ?

Would you tell me that nazi propaganda films were actually staged and filmed after the war ?

Would you tell me that the Nuremberg laws were made up and forged by the Zionists after the war ?

Would you tell me that whatever body of evidence is refered to, that it is all manufactured to support the Jewish/American fraud they call the holocaust ?

So the holocaust is reduced to a conspiracy theory.

Jeez.

Well at least your getting a good gfy education.

Fact.

Your a cock.

I cannot be held responsible for your foolishness. Although I have tried to help I cannot make a fool into a wise man.

You cannot polish a turd.

Good night.

Holocaust did happen, it was a bad, a very bad thing but nothing in the scale of
the things white people did in America ..killing 90% of the indigenous peoples .. that was a real genocide. Also .. the things they've did to black people ...slavery and stuff it's incomparable with the holocaust. Also the atrocities in Africa in the latest 100 years (post colonialist period). How about the food we throw away every day..would that be considered genocide for hungry people from Somalia? What i don't like about the holocaust, is the dimension it's still presented in the media.

Why do we have so many news about Israel and NOTHING about the perpetuum hunger in some countries in Africa? .. Again, i'm just trying to make a point about the scales .. According to the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations, "850 million people worldwide were undernourished in 1999 to 2005" and the number of hungry people has recently been increasing widely. I mean .. if you want to talk about genocide .. let's talk about that .. about the food we all trow away.
I don't have anything against Jew people (i am 12.5% jew) or Americans, or Russians ..or Chinese. The fact is that mass media can be used to better things. WHY IS THE HOLOCAUST EVEN ON THE TABLE? It's a shameful chapter in history .. we all get it, how about the others? how about the ones we can do something about?

you don't think anybody does anything about the other tragedies going on in the world? there are people who do things. go look at the amount of foreign aid the US gives - today and historically. what i do know is that not one person in this thread does shit other than bumping their gums on a porn industry forum called GFY.

Foreign aid as a percentage of GNI:

http://www.drtomoconnor.com/images/d...percentGNI.gif

If you use the Hubble telescope you can almost see America's contribution.

And let's see which poverty stricken, starving country benefits most from US foreign aid:

http://abcnews.go.com/images/Politic...nfographic.jpg

Well, whaddaya know!

maybe the Germans wouldn't have been so gung ho to fall lock and goose step behind a freak of failed nature named Adolf Hitler had they known there would be a deep price to pay for it, it's all fun and games holding nationalistic pep rallies, rounding up and killing Jews and other minorities, invading other countries and imposing your rule on them UNTIL somebody stronger and bigger than you fights back, then it's 'oh please Mr. Churchill please don't gas us! We didn't mean anything General Eisenhower, please feed us poor prisoners of war!'. that's war, you pieces of shit brought it, we(our fathers and grandfathers) finished it.

furthermore, I don't put the value of an 18 year old soldier's life any lower than that of a 70 year old female civilian or a 3 year old civilian.

the war ended with the dropping of atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki - and as horrific as that was it spared more lives than it killed and brought a lasting peace.

and finally, no modern democracy has ever declared war on another democracy. there's a big hint as to how to avoid wars.

WWII wasn't about the Holocaust, the anti-semites want to make it seem that way, because it puts Jews in a bad light. Anybody who takes the time to even read a rudimentary text book history knows that not one nation on this earth was fighting WWII to save the Jews. They were defending their own people and saving the world from a psychopath hell bent on world domination by a purified Aryan race.

well whaddaya know, you're an anti-semite AND an idiot.

when some natural disaster hits and a devastated country needs help i'm sure they appreciate that Norway gives the most foreign aid per capita but it will be the US giving more than 7 times what Norway can that will feed, clothe and rebuild the most. simpleton.

# 1 United States: $23,530,000,000.00

# 2 United Kingdom: $12,460,000,000.00
# 3 France: $10,600,000,000.00
# 4 Germany: $10,440,000,000.00
# 5 Japan: $7,500,000,000.00
# 6 Netherlands: $5,452,000,000.00
# 7 Sweden: $3,955,000,000.00
# 8 Canada: $3,900,000,000.00
# 9 Spain: $3,814,000,000.00
# 10 Italy: $3,641,000,000.00
# 11 Norway: $2,954,000,000.00
# 12 Denmark: $2,236,000,000.00
# 13 Australia: $2,123,000,000.00
# 14 Belgium: $1,978,000,000.00
# 15 Switzerland: $1,646,000,000.00
# 16 Austria: $1,498,000,000.00
# 17 Finland: $1,023,000,000.00
# 18 Ireland: $1,022,000,000.00
# 19 Korea, South: $455,300,000.00
# 20 Greece: $424,000,000.00
# 21 Portugal: $396,000,000.00
# 22 Luxembourg: $291,000,000.00
# 23 New Zealand: $259,000,000.00
# 24 Cyprus: $25,900,000.00
# 25 Iceland: $6,700,000.00

Amazing. 70 years ago you had to kill 6 million Jews to become an anti-Semite. Now all it takes is being unsurprised that the biggest recipient of American taxpayers' money is a rich, developed country that doesn't need it.

Really? I'd have thought they'd appreciate the contribution of the EU, which absolutely fucking dwarfs what the US gives. BTW, dummy, GNI does not mean "per capita".

'you're'

seriously people

get it together

That might just be possible. At the end of the war all of Europe was in ruins and there was no functioning government in many countries. The Allies not only had to feed their own men, but also the entire civilian population and also Allied armies.

What comes around goes around. I'm currently reading a book that takes about the mistakes of WWII (I'm always reading some kind of WWII book or another) and the book just mentioned the Russian front and how when entire armies surrendered that no one was able to feed them. It just wasn't something anyone was prepared to do.

Nothing to deny here. Pseudo-intellectuals should move over at stormfront