Phil I disagree 100%

There are PLENTY of mainstream Hollywood movies with rape scenes in them.

Never heard on any rapes being attributed to them.

It's called "fantasy" for a reason.

Sylvester Stallone "KILLED" hundreds of guys in RAMBO. Never heard of any killings attributed to that.

As for the CP stuff...I don't know. Maybe you're right. Not sure if there is any way to have an actual scientific study on that.

And as for the "presence of a gun facilitates rape". Yeah, and so does a guy simply outweighing a girl by a hundred pounds. Or a guy with a knife. Or just the fact that a guy has two arms and two fists.

EDIT: FIFTY GRANT MERCURY'S SWARMING IN A ANTI-FREEDOM NUT FRENZY TO KISS THE GOVT'S ASS

fear mongers

Actually Robbie there has been significant research some of which is chronicled HERE.

Just for starters, "The criminalization of child pornography is, in part, justified by the assumption that it will cause viewers to commit contact offences against children. No conclusive evidence substantiates this assumption. On the contrary, child pornography appears to have a cathartic effect."

Robbie, on the guy simply outweighing the girl, being stronger, having a knife, I completely agree, any one of those and 100,000 other things can facilitate a rape, or other crime for that matter. I don't think the logical anti gun people think guns are the only problem, the only evil, we all know there are 1 million ways to die, infinite items that could be used as a weapon, I don't want to be anti gun, I just feel the other avenues have been exhausted.

the original argument I responded to was that porn does as much to cause rape as guns do to cause murders, and that is 100% false. My response aimed to show that while the presence of a gun certainly facilitates a wacko to commit murder, the presence of porn does not facilitate a sicko's act of rape and I am right.

again, I admit 100% with all you gun lovers, the common theme here is not guns, it is mental instability and that is the issue that is most prevalent in the United States.

I want you guys on both sides to think about the following, both gun lovers and gun haters, please for 5 minutes forget about guns and think about this:

1) 26.2% of American adults have been diagnosed with a mental disorder, that's more than a quarter of you.

2) Those individuals have 3 options, do nothing, medicate, or seek long term professional mental help

now, explore the options.

Do nothing (no help) well we can all guess that these are the worst offenders, but no, when you do nothing, you live with your disorder all the time, you are used to it, it is always with you, and although you might be at a higher risk of loosing it and fucking someone up, chances are it will have as much to do with passion and the moment and the few of these crimes that are committed by people with no mental disorder, and those are few and far between.

Medicate (the band aid solution) Medication for a mental Disorder although pricey, is most often covered by medical expenses and ends up costing the family a couple hundred dollars out of pocket a year, for those with no coverage, it might be more like a couple thousand.

Professional Help (the only real solution) first of all professional help for a mental disorder is hard to get, this is not the favorite area of shrinks when they get into the business, as it also exposes them to risky situations. Secondly, the majority of all benefit packages in the US contain absolutely no coverage for seeking the help of a psychiatrist. Thirdly the average person with a mental disorder is recommended to see a psych 3+ times a week, at an average of close to $120 per session, that's $19,000 a year out of pocket.

so I may think guns should be banned, and you may think not, I may think guns are a problem you may think not, but what is the real issue here, although I think the quickest solution is to get rid of as many guns as possible, I can agree that at the root of this, it is not a gun problem, it's more like what Frank keeps saying, I just won't be a dick when I say it.

your government forces everyone who is not rich to put a band aid on their potentially fatal wounds instead of sending them for surgery!

Phil, what about us people who don't hate guns or "love" guns? I have a shotgun. Haven't fired it in 4 years. Just have it in case I ever woke up with somebody breaking into my home. Doubt I'll ever use, my German Shepard would probably scare them off.

I'm "gun neutral". But I'm "anti-govt" controlling our lives.

All I'm really saying on the subject of guns is this:
IF as a society we decide to allow the govt. to disarm everyone, then we should simply repeal the Second Amendment.

I think that everything else is unconstitutional and doing it half-ass. You would need to repeal it and then round up the guns...and yes that would mean allowing the cops to search our homes. They are getting closer and closer to having that power every decade it seems anyway. (I can't imagine cops being able to search my car in the 1980's, or people allowing TSA agents to search them at airports like criminals...but baby step by baby step they are gaining more power over us and we are more accepting of it).

Do I think it would stop or even slow down violent crimes? No, I don't think so. But I'm just like everybody else...just guessing.

"Someone like you." :1orglaugh

Dude, there will never be a perfect candidate. What we can do is support and campaign for the best possible candidate in the primaries, and then vote for the better option in the general. Between elections, we need to be informed, be active, and make our voices heard by our representatives in government - when they do the right thing - AND when they fuck up. If everyone did that, this would be a dramatically improved nation.

"Pro government?" As opposed to what? Anarchy? Fascist corporate control? What's the alternative? I'm not "pro government" - I simply recognize government is NECESSARY, and CAN be a good thing. Only simpletons and talk-radio dittoheads spout the ridiculous "government is always bad" horseshit.

http://leftwingnutjob.net/wp-content...gger-logic.jpg

GrantMercury...I like you.

I agree with half the shit you say and the other half I think you're batshit crazy.

But you have passion in what you believe (even if you're dead wrong lol).
I hope you are applying that same passion to your work and you are doing well...and I hope that people who think like you don't take away all your money and give it away to other people! lol

Anyway, don't take anything I'm saying personally. I just have a different view. I appreciate your viewpoint and the argument is fun. :)

dang Robbie, I never got that kind of 'like' from you:(

and i'd like to take at least a little credit for your conversion to progressive libertarianism/gary johnson

:(

:1orglaugh

I'm not sure I "converted" to it. I used to be a die-hard Democrat because I'm pro-choice and very "liberal" socially. Then I started making money (the old saying: "Show me 10 lottery winners, and I'll show you 10 ex-Democrats"). So I voted Republican because I am fiscally conservative.

This last year I watched a Gary Johnson speech. He made more sense than Obama and Romney combined. And when he said "I'm pro-choice for EVERYTHING", I realized he was defining what FREEDOM means.

Instead of "converting", I think I just opened my eyes and realized that I was already a Libertarian but didn't realize it and was caught up in the 2-party bullshit.

i'd like to think i helped with that. i took a lot of time correcting some of your opinions with documented facts and nudging the progressive libertarian message.

then again, maybe you didn't read those posts.

anyhow, whatevs....welcome to the good ship Sanity:)

Robbie, I like what you said about just guessing, so am I.

I don't think you will ever stop violent crime but mass killings yes. You cant kill 20 people in one shot with a bat or a knife. I think don't ban, but better regulate it. There are more regulations to get a drivers license or to buy cold meds.

I think any attempts at that will be unconstitutional. Of course it wouldn't be the first time the Supreme Court allowed the Constitution to be trampled.

Our Constitutional right to freedom from unreasonable search and seizure, for instance, has been destroyed by their loose interpretation of the word "unreasonable" and now we have cops searching us at will, TSA searching us at will, and people forced to pee in cups to find out what's INSIDE their bodies!!!

If you are going to mess with the 2nd amendment...just repeal it and be done with it.

As for the mass killings:
Here are 22 children killed in China by a guy with a knife last month:
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2...-in-china?lite

Tim McVeigh used a home made bomb in Oklahoma City.

Serial killers seem to never use a gun. Ted Bundy killed at LEAST 30 people (police say the number is higher but can't confirm). He bludgeoned all of them to death in their sleep.

I say either repeal the 2nd amendment or not.

Right. Suggest that it's fucked up, though, and you'll be accused of wanting to "ban guns". Gun nuts don't do nuance very well. They tent to deal in absolutes.

http://www.bartcop.com/sudafed-control.jpg

really? you have to have an fbi background check and a 7-10 day waiting period to get a drivers license or cold medicine? I brought my son in this last summer for his DL and we were in and out in an hour. All he had to do was show his Social Security Card and no picture ID.

You need a permit to purchase now to buy hand guns and rifles.

Steps 1 - Go to local police department, they do a background check with the fbi and look at your police record. This takes at least 7 business days but can not take longer than 10 business days. If you have any violent or drug related crime they turn you down and its up to their discretion.

Step 2 - Go to gun store or gun show, find the gun you want to buy. Show permit to purchase along with state issued picture or military ID. Wait 72 more hours for another FBI background check to clear. Go back to where you bought the gun, pick up gun, sign an endless amount of paperwork, swear that you are not a wanted criminal, blah blah and then you can be on your way.

Just wait until some crazy fuck walks into a grade school with a machete that is razor sharp and forged out of quality steel. I'm guessing he would be able to do the same amount of damage.

Then what? Who do we blame then? Machete's? I'm sure they will triple in price overnight.

Unless you're the Highlander, I'm guessing that taking down 20 people with a Machete is a tad harder to do than with a gun.

I already posted this: http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2...-in-china?lite

That's TWENTY TWO elementary school kids with a KNIFE (not even a machete, which would do a lot more damage)

And here's another one in China with an axe: http://behindthewall.nbcnews.com/_ne...-in-china?lite

By the way...guns are banned in China. Their totalitarian govt. doesn't want the people armed.

Number killed? 0

none of the 22 kids in china were killed. its very very hard to kill 22 people at once with a knife. better chance of trying to run from a knife than a gun.

They didn't get away...they were all "slashed". And yeah, thank goodness they weren't killed.

3 of the kids in the other one in Dec. were killed. That guy used an axe!

My point is...and you know it's true, that if a crazy person makes up their mind to do something they WILL find a way to do it.

We are still being searched like criminals at airports because 9 guys with box cutters killed over 3,000 people and crashed 4 airplanes in one day.

No guns needed.

They weren't kill you dumb fuck.

Fiscal conservatives don't vote Republican. Rich, selfish, pricks do. That's because the GOP runs up the debt and tanks the economy - but shelters the rich from the fallout.

Libertarians are just Republicans that want to smoke pot and fuck who they want.

There's so much misinformation out there about Libertarians.... :(

GrantMercury has a habit of lumping everyone together and thinking he understands other people when clearly he does not.

I said exactly what I believed in my post. And I said exactly how, over time, I came to that philosophy.

Then GrantMercury tells me that NO...I was a "selfish prick" for voting Republican at any time in my life. And I am just a "Republican who wants to smoke pot (which I don't) and fuck who they want (which I do)"

Apparently GrantMercury views the world in a very narrow way. Not realizing that people are complex beings.

Tell me GM...why do you vote for Democrats? And NEVER open your mind to any other philosophy or politcal thought...even though nothing in the big picture ever changes and just gets worse?

I was talking about Libertarians in general - not you personally. And there was a time when Republicans were actually sane - so, depending on how old you are, you could very well have voted for some reasonable candidates.

I do have an open mind. I was a member of the Green Party for a while. I loved their progressive platform - but part of their platform includes a refusal to take more than $100 in donations from any single source. No money = no win.

So we need to take over the Democratic party. Push out the DINOs. Pressure them to act like Democrats - not just less offensive Republicans - or be thrown out. NO candidate is incorruptible, and the country will never run on autopilot.

As for things getting worse - that's bullshit. That's your own skewed view. Consider America in the 1930s and tell me things haven't gotten better economically and socially. And it's because people demanded change. It's that simple. That's the beauty of America. Violent revolution isn't necessary. A phone call will do - but we all need to do it.

But these days, too many people can't be fucking bothered. Some are very comfortable and just don't care. Others are working themselves to death and taking care of their families, and can barely remember what day of the week it is. And the country has been sliding. The middle class is shrinking, while the top 1% is doing phenomenally well. Wages are down, while corporate profits have skyrocketed. Our jobs have been outsourced (and in many cases the companies that did the outsourcing got a TAX BREAK for doing it). Lobbyists have continued to tighten control in Washington. We The People have been asleep.

And I stand by my criticism of Libertarians. Most are selfish pricks who flatly refuse to accept we are a society. They'll tell you they were raised by wolves, taught themselves to read & write, and never benefitted from any social program or taxpayer-funded project. They hunt and prepare their own food, home school their kids, have a volunteer fire department in their town, and read Ayn Rand by candlelight in their self-made log cabin. Therefore they're being robbed by the government when they pay taxes. They're certain they're the only ones who get up early and "bust their hump" to live while the rest (or at least 47%) choose to collect welfare and live the high life. And we're supposed to take them seriously.

http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/wp-cont...ibertarian.png

GM you can post all the cartoons you like...but that is NOT what a Libertarian is.

That is propaganda that both the GOP and Democrat Parties are loving to see.

They are scared to death of a third party rising that actually believes in personal freedom and would take away all their money and power.

Libertarians do not espouse the views in that cartoon. They are NOT anarchists.

It's a simple belief that the govt. should not be giant, should not rule us, but should SERVE us and not spend one more penny than is absolutely necessary to perform it's obligations.

Do I think things are better than the 1930s? Yes, the 1930's were the years of the Great Depression.
And of course life in general is always going to be better NOW than it was decades ago because of advances in medicine and technology.

Does that mean our GOVT is "better" now? Hell no. They are overreaching into our lives. They tell us what we can and can not ingest in our bodies, what we can see or not see, what we can read or not read, what we can do or not do in our own bedrooms. The list goes on and on.

The things that ARE better with our govt. today are mostly the things that they have been STOPPED from interfering with...such as abortion.

Slavery was obviously wrong. And it was taken care of in the Civil War. And race discrimination during the Johnson Administration.

But don't compare the govt. stepping in for that (which it should have) to the govt. mandate for everyone to buy health insurance. Or the govt. arresting people for smoking marijuana (I don't smoke it...but it's none of the federal govt.'s business). Or the govt. spending millions of dollars to drag baseball players in front of Congress to question them about using freakin' steroids.

NONE of that is what the govt. should be doing.

And please don't get me started on what we are doing militarily. It's a fucking nightmare. Spending more than the next 13 countries combined on military. And for what?

Why doesn't Pres. Obama STOP it.
He won't and he can't. He's just like every other criminal in Washington D.C. and you know it.

The last president who tried to really take on the military industrial complex (and the bankers) ended up with his head blown off.

So everyone just goes along....and gets paid

The government IS us. We send lawmakers to DC to represent OUR interests and vote on OUR behalf. The problem is too many people don't understand that. They never contact their lawmakers and the lobbyists couldn't be happier about that.

And because of public policy laws that weakened a once very rigid caste system.

Really? How many books are banned now? How many were in 1950? How many sodomy laws are on the books now? How many in 1950? Things are worse now?

You can eat anything you want. You can watch almost anything you want, with the exception of kiddie porn (we as a society have decided such material should be banned). Where are you getting this persecution complex?

And that didn't just happen. Were those pro-choice activists wasting their time? Would they have been better off bitching about taxes because nothing ever changes and both parties suck? No. They understood that WE ARE the government. People changed things - for the better.

"Taken care of" by who?

He lost his wand?

Presidents don't "stop" anything. Citizens who have had enough do. Things HAVE gotten better - and not simply as a result of technology. When people pay attention and take part - things can improve. If we stop caring - things most certainly backslide. It's all up to us. Nobody ever promised it would be easy.

Really? So Lincoln didn't use his powers to cause change within Washington D.C. and twist enough arms to bring the issue of slavery to a head? And he didn't write the Emancipation Proclamation?

And FDR didn't "stop anything"? And Lyndon Johnson?

I guess Obama must have lost the "wand" when he took office. Bush sure seemed to use it...and used it to take away many of our personal freedoms in the name of the "war on terror". Too bad he didn't tell Obama where he left the "wand" so Obama could reverse some of that shit.

Excuses are what you are making. Yes, theoretically the govt. represents "The People"

In real life...they represent THEMSELVES stealing and spending every penny they can get their hands on. :(

Are we supposed to take your ignorant blanket generalizations seriously?

Every gun was bought legally at one point.

And...

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/23/us...anted=all&_r=0

Alright, just for fun, I'm gonna take these one by one. I've been voting libertarian for 20+ years. If you want to put a simplistic label on me (which you seem fond of doing), you'd label me a pragmatic/progressive libertarian.

I'm no more of a selfish prick than the next guy AND i completely accept and embrace that we are a society.

I was primarily raised by 3 human women. My mom, grandmother and aunt. As far as I know, no wolves were involved.
My grandmother taught me how to read and write.
I have benefitted from social programs and/or taxpayer-funded projects

I have done none of these things. Well, I've prepared my own food...

I do believe we are often robbed by the government, ON BEHALF OF large corporations and other big money interests, and the lazy 5ish% who want to do nothing more than subsist on welfare etc. Anyone who looks into the numbers will see that Corporate Welfare is FAR, FAR greater than the welfare paid out to the lazy 5ish%.

Anyone who makes a few minutes of effort to identify the alleged 47% will find out that 85-90% of them are the elderly and the working poor.

That said, i think 99% of people (regardless of their political leanings) don't make any effort to do their own homework. Instead, they just regurgitate talking points and have nothing to offer when asked to defend their positions.

At that point, they usually do one (or more) of four things:
1) Disappear from the discussion
2) Change the subject
3) Ignore comments that challenge their positions
4) Do silly things like make ignorant blanket statements about those they are ignorantly criticizing, post ignorant silly images about those they are ignorantly criticizing, etcetera etcetera.
Does this last bit make you look in the mirror a bit? It should.

It's a blanket generalization, to be sure. It's my general impression of Libertarians, based on those I know or have met personally, and what I've read.

We are a society. We are interdependent. Nobody created their wealth in a vacuum. Nobody survives entirely on their own. It's been my experience that Libertarians petulantly refuse to accept this simple fact.

You're far more honest that any of the Libertarians I know.

And of course I'm making generalizations. People do it every fucking day. But in GENERAL, Libertarians DO deny benefitting from social programs and taxpayer-funded projects, and DO refuse to accept that we are an interdependent society.

??? :disgust

None of those presidents did anything on their own. That's not how it works. Certainly, presidents have agendas, but they need support. Politicians don't bring about change. The people do. When there is a groundswell of support for a cause, a politician will grab a baton and lead the parade - but the support comes first.

Marriage equality is a perfect, recent example. The public has been way ahead of policy on the issue - and Obama came out and said he supports gay marriage. Would he have if the support wasn't already there? NFW.

Dude, seriously. Stop blowing obama. I know I'm pissing in the wind saying that, but....

Yes he stood up for gay marriage. Props.

He's also the guy who promised he wouldn't bother MMJ dispensaries, then his DOJ made more raids on dispensaries in 4 years than Bush II did in 8!!

Far, far, FAR more importantly, he's also the guy who (while campaigning in 2008) talked tough about the Wall St fraudsters who nearly crushed our economy. "It will be a new era on Wall St" :1orglaugh:error:disgust:disgust
Then he did NOTHING about them once he got into office.

Do you think that might have something to do with the fact that the big banks were his biggest campaign contributors in 2008? That's a fact. Look it up.

He's just another crooked politician. 'Hope and change' was nothing but a slogan.

Follow the money. See sig.

.

You are shooting down your own argument ...:1orglaugh

The 22 children in China were not killed , but WOUNDED ...
If the guy would of have an assault rifle , those kids would have been dead :2 cents:

Dude, you missed the point. I'm NOT "blowing Obama". My fucking point is that the only reason Obama did what he did (marriage equality), is because the PEOPLE were behind it. Politicians don't change things - the people do. The politicians get the credit.

I didn't vote for or support Obama because he's perfect. That's a stupid reason to vote for anyone - because you'll always be disappointed. I voted for him because he was the far better option. Sometimes (usually) that's all we can do - so we do it. And of course, we have a bunch of GOP obstructionist motherfuckers in the house that have made it their mission to not let anything get done.

My point all along has been that the people make politicians act. But when most of the country can't be bothered to pay attention and take part, by contacting their lawmakers by phone, fax or email, or even just fucking voting - shit gets completely out of hand.

:warning ???? :warning

/ end of thread

Just listened to an interview with Jesse Ventura. He always makes a shit-ton of sense. He seems to fit the "pragmatic/progressive libertarian" profile. I liked everything he had to say.

http://www.popfi.com/wp-content/uplo...se-ventura.jpg

He shouldn't go out in public looking like Riff Raff from Rockey Horror, but he's a smart fucking guy.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_OHdATufynr...-o-brien-1.jpg

I agree with everything you just said :1orglaugh

The great thing about Ventura - he takes the time to look deeper into the issues, and most importantly, he ignores political dogma/talking points and FOLLOWS THE MONEY!

Doing that takes time, and most people are too lazy to do so.