51 brainwashed sheep (does not apply to those that know they are overpaying at least 50% for sexy design and logo)

Amazing how there are still so many fanboys who think they pay all that extra money for a better computer. How dumb can you get.

Use linux you bunch of pussies

Next time you're in the US hit me up, I'll show you my mac collection, we can shoot some guns then go out for some fast food.

.

You guys ranting on about hardware price are all completely retarded. Seriously, you are mentally facile.

You don't pay the Apple premium because you want the hardware.

You pay the premium because you want to run OS X (without the headaches and lack of futureproofing of a Hackintosh).

Developing rules on a Mac because the interface rocks, there are none of the hardware headaches with trying to get a laptop running with Linux, you can use all the business productivity software you're used to on Windows along with all your unix development tools, there is actually a stable filesystem etc. If it breaks I can walk into an Apple outlet anywhere in the world (I travel a lot) and get it fixed no questions asked.

The initial purchase price is higher but the total cost of ownership is the same or lower.

There. That part needed bigger letters because there are people who keep fooling themselves beleiving they only pay $30 for OSX.

Look into Hackintosh. You can run a legit copy of OS X on a "PC", you just won't get Apple's support. So yeah, $30 for OS X > $150 for Windows.

ok so just proved the point, you pay hundreds (minus 30$ for OS) extra for nothing but logo and disputable support quality.

Huh? The few times over the last 15 years I've had a problem I either had it fixed while I waited at an apple store or had a real live english speaking tech in California walk me thru my problem.

Yes you can get it for $30, but how many are choosing that solution, using a PC for running OS X?

Have you ever even used a Apple computer longer then toying around with it while you aimlessly walked around an Apple store just wishing you could afford to buy one?

You sound like someone who is just jealous because they can't afford an "over priced piece of shit"

I welcome anyone who's actually owned a Mac computer to argue why it's worthless instead of these haters. At least you'd have intelligent reasons for disliking Apple.

That's it in a nutshell. I can understand why some Windows-centric users might not like OS X, but if you are someone who needs to use Unix then OS X is where it's at. It is just the best tool available for a certain segment of the market.

I would value my time at over $100 an hour. At that rate the price premium of a Mac is quickly wiped out by a few hours spent:

* building a PC from scratch and installing whatever OS you like.
* removing preinstalled crapware if I buy an off the shelf Windows PC, or installing Linux / OS X and mucking around getting all the hardware to work.
* reinstalling Windows even once after your install gets trashed by driveby malware because your flash version is one day out of date.

If you can't understand why a professional in their field would choose to pay a small initial price premium to save time and to have the best tool to do their job, then you're a completely useless faggot who deserves to be shot and killed.

Well said AutumnBH. :thumbsup

But you can't get that through the heads of these numbskulls because they've never owned anything except for that Sony laptop mom bought them last year after they graduated high school. :Oh crap

1. I never said its worthless. I said its pretty much the same thing (depends on which OS you like more) that cost extra for the logo.

2. I always laugh how Isheep people say "you can not afford so you hate". Brilliant logic - if you do not want to overpay for nothing you "can not afford" :1orglaugh
If I tried to sell you bottle of cocacola for 10$ and you would not buy it I would claim that you can not afford 10$ :1orglaugh
I can not believe somebody who is a programmer could have such a retarded logic :2 cents:

...yawn, motherboard architecture is superior. No 2 side pins for the LDVS cable, with a 32 pin connector, optimizes the bus speed already on the board, to the extent that there is never any screen flicker, as the refresh rate is throttled to the graphics card in approx .00026 mil/sec.
The throttle ON/OFF capability of the gigabit RAM is quite amazing, as it put's each RAM bay on standby when RAM is not being utilized. Also bringing down your electric bill. The electronic footprint of an imac is roughly the same as a fucking toaster.
The electronic indicator LED's on the motherboard, make repair, pretty fucking simple, as you have 4 quadrants on the board that each LED represents. Drama based on color. Same with the liquid spill indicators also on the logic boards.
Apple, hands down, has fucking killed it, in the standaround air induction and case cooling that it pantented and invented in 2006. No other box can compete.
The boot kernal for mach/UNIX, has base startup and resolve time of 6/1000 of a second. I will race against every piece of shit PC computer owner that is crying on here like a little fucking bitch, any day. BRING IT...
Apple has over 8500 patents on motherboard architecture alone because it is so fucking badass.
...etc, etc, etc.

http://i.imgur.com/ZaS5y.png

Not to mention everyone's trying to copy Apple now.

sounds like a dream vacation for Franck :1orglaugh

So here's a story.

Today (A Sunday), I had trouble syncing my mac mail to my ipad and iphone. No matter what I did I kept getting strange results (email not sending, weird messages, etc). It was taking forever so I decided to try apple support.

To get it, I went to their website, selected the $35.00 option for a 1-time support fee (as I didn't think this would be included by their warranty). Clicked "call me" and my phone rang instantly. I was connected to a tech support guy in less than 45 seconds. Wow.

So we spent about 30 minutes trying to figure out what was going on. It turned out that it was may fault - I was specifying the wrong login credentials. I completely wasted 30 minutes of Apple's tech support time.

And you know what? They didn't charge me.

LOL I always think of this when people complain about things. Great episode.

An Apple is a pc. Just twice as expensive because of the logo.

* building a PC from scratch and installing whatever OS you like.
Bought a pc installed with windows and everything,0 hours spend on setup
* removing preinstalled crapware if I buy an off the shelf Windows PC, or installing Linux / OS X and mucking around getting all the hardware to work.
There was crapware preinstalled but nothing what would annoy,some of programs installed was actually very useful.
* reinstalling Windows even once after your install gets trashed by driveby malware because your flash version is one day out of date.
Total bullshit,not a single reinstall was done since i bought this windows pc,nor a single malware passes(using microsoft security essential/noscript/malware antibytes).
Not to mention 80% of apps which i use dont have version for mac,so using mac would be totally useless for professional purposes.And it would cause LOST TIME.

Are you completely stupid? Do you lack reading comprehension? That point applies to people who build their own computers, you fucking moron.

If you consider commercial crapware to be useful then you are clearly even more of a retarded postwhore than you first appear. Even a mediocre Windows user doesn't consider their main computer to be useful until they've done a clean reinstall from an OEM disk.

See, that is a the typical attitude of an ignorant Windows faggot such as yourself. You haven't been compromised THAT YOU KNOW OF. OS X might be harder to lock down that a free unix but at least I can install a proper firewall like pf or ipfw, I have proper separation of privileges between services and between adminstrator and non-admin users in the filesystem etc. The bottom line is that if you are a serious computer user with valuable and unique intellectual property, you just can't trust Windows, either for security or for basic filesystem reliability. Windows is a toy OS - useful for some applications but built from matchsticks. Also if you blindly trust antivirus software for your protection then you're a dribbling spastic who has never played around with a point and click off the shelf open source malware kit.

Good for you! The fact that you're a glorified secretary consuming other people's apps is not the point. The point is that there are specific professions that require certain tools and Mac is the best tool for the job for some people. A small price premium is completely irrelevant to them because it's such a tiny cost of doing business. If you are too stupid to understand that then you are clearly a worthless cocksucker.

Completely irrelevant,as i stated a fact.

I do not consider commercial crapware useful,i actually deleted those one's but free/vendor software is good.But the fact is,even if i didn't deleted anything,os is still working good as it would be installed fresh without any preinstalls.
Yes it is correct how windows is total crap when it comes to security,but if you follow a specific procedure you wont ever have problem with any kind of malware.And i dont trust antivirus,i do manual check of system core files when searching for any kind of malware.

I agree how mac is best for some people,but in my case it will be complete lose of time and money due lack of many programs support for it.That is problem with you and other apple fanbois,a claim how it's better in any case.Not to mention you act like religious nutcase.

True. Some people think their Mac hardware is superior though.
It's 99% pc and 1% Apple adjustment to charge people a lot of extra money.

A bit like how they went with the new Lightning connector primarily to milk the sheep.
$29 for a Lightning Adapter and $39 if you want it with 0,2m cable. $10 for 20cm cable :1orglaugh
You can get a 1,8m USB cable for $3.

We have 3 iMacs here in the house already. They're not the best when it comes to editing and rendering video...which is what this one would be for.

I refuse to edit on a MacBook Pro as well, even though there are at least 4 of them laying around here too.

The only thing good about Apple hardware is that even after 5 years, you can still get $600 for your $1200 iMac.

Blah blah blah...

Little does it matter when your $10,000 Mac Pro is full of 3 year old hardware.

Haha ya no shit. Amazing what the religious nutters will come up with to defend their overpriced pc with Apple logo.

Where have you been the last few years? Getting linux to install on a laptop is easier than installing windows. You don't have to fumble with installing drivers to get shit working. I always install linux on every laptop I buy.

I like getting shit :thumbsup

Mac haters are a weird breed to me. I have a Mac Mini, a Mac Pro Desktop (I'm on that now), a Macbook Pro Laptop, and several other Apple computers. I've had zero downtime with any of these machines, and I've been using Apple products since 2005.

I'll give you a customer support example: last week, I wanted to see if some odd software hiccups were caused by the type of video card I have (two Nvidia 9800 cards because the machine is from 2009). I inquired to Apple if they thought it was the cause of the weirdness I was seeing, and they sent me a free $300 card just to make sure that wasn't the issue. Here's the punchline .. this computer was NEVER under warranty, since I bought it via the developer program. Four years later, I get a free video card. Fanatical support, without an exception, in my experience.

Those who hate on Macs usually haven't owned one, and although it's cliche to say they couldn't afford one, it's also a truism in some cases. I've considered building a Hackintosh, but the build quality would be inferior to just spending $3k-$5k and buying a Mac Pro Desktop. If you've ever swapped a part inside of one, you'll know what I'm talking about. I'm all for saving money, but saying that a "fake" Mac is just as good as a real one is somewhat of a straw-man argument. A computer isn't just about the hardware it's made of.

Understandable, I hear Mac Pro's are best for editing and rendering video.

I've had an iMac since 2008. It's older, but with a periodic OS re-install and RAM upgrade, it still runs flawlessly. when the time comes I'll probably purchase a PC, though.

Hate to break it to you but you're talking about software differences, not hardware. I'd have to pull it up, but I did a post a while back covering this very topic.. and at the end of the day, you get the same cheapest bidder hardware that PCs have. The *only* difference are a few bios additions (EFI), and a different firmware on the video cards.

Th mac pro consists of...

Motherboards: manufactured by Foxxconn.. a PC motherboard manufacturer.

CPU - Made by intel. The exact same Xeon processors I use in my home workstation and servers.

Memory - Made by whoever was cheapest at the time... Samsung, Micron, et al. Nothing special

HDD's - the same platter or ssd disks you get in any other PC
video cards - I think they're using AMD cards now. The ONLY difference between a PC GPU and a mac GPU is the firmware

The only thing really "custom" or "proprietary" is the chassis when it comes to hardware.

As far as software goes.. comparing Windows to Linux to OS X (unix) has been an ageless debate.

OS X derives from unix and therefore, by default, has less stability issues and vulnerabilities than Windows.

Not to mention... Apple only manufactures a select amount of hardware that is generally guaranteed to work with their software. There are no drivers to download, install and maintain. Like linux, OS X (unix) beats Windows in this regard.

On the other hand, Windows is NOT developed for a specific limited range of hardware. It is developed for a nearly endless range of hardware, from countless manufacturers, and in countless different configurations. This is where Windows shines the most... because whether your budget only allows for a $300 system or a $3,000+ system, chances are it'll run Windows just fine... The only drawback is installing drivers.

And then there is Linux. Which, in my opinion, has the best of both worlds. It's highly compatible with near countless hardware, manufacturers and configurations; usually requires no driver installs; and basically just works. The problem with Linux comes in the form of rather limited software availability. Sure, you can find open source alternatives for most things.. but let's be real, in most cases, nothing beats the real thing. The 1 true thing in my direct opinion that is holding Linux back though is Direct X. While OpenGL has been around far longer, Direct X remains the "king" when it comes to gaming. The day that changes though is the day Linux really picks up.

Quite a lot apparently.. else the "hackintosh" community wouldn't be so active heh...

That's not entirely true. Let me snap you a quick picture of the video card that just came in the mail.

I'm going to call BS on Apple sending you a free $300 video card... sorry, but Apple didn't build the company they did by sending free hardware. And chances are, your 2009 machine running 2 9800's is still running 10.5, maybe 10.6.. and therefore isn't compatible with newer GPU since Apple doesn't retroactively update their drivers for newer hardware to work in older software.

Now, if you managed to get past the lion upgrade issues with an old 2009 machine, got it running without flaws; then perhaps the gpu would work... but I cannot see any scenario on this side of hell where Apple would send you free hardware.


As to the rest.. do your research. Aside from a few minor things like EFI Bios and it's own firmware on GPUs, there is very little difference between your average PC hardware and your average Mac hardware... the only difference is the cost.

This isn't your average video card:

http://twitpic.com/show/thumb/btl97i.jpg

Even the ports are specific to the Mac, for my monitors. The "mass market" version of this card, the NVidia 9800 GT, is not the same spec.

Before you bother wasting time with that...

Nvidia makes what is called a "reference GPU" for each new model they produce. Hadware manufacturers then "design" their own based off of the reference design. Different companies make different changes, most of which are with the cooling. Some companies overclock, some don't. Etc etc. But at the end of the day, they're all the same cards.

And there is no difference when it comes to "Mac" specific GPU's. The only difference is the firmware. So for instance, the 9800 GPU you have or had in your mac... I can take a PC "branded" 9800, flash the mac firmware and run it in a Mac... there are absolutely zero differences in the hardware specs.

Sadly, you're wrong on every count here. Apple sent me the card, completely free.

I run Mountain Lion, 10.8.2. My machine is a dual-processor Quad-Core Xeon (8 cores total) with 12GB of RAM. Even by today's standards, it's a fast machine. My architecture is identical to a Mac Pro you'd buy today, right down to the 6.4 GT/s bus.

There are NO "issues" with upgrading this machine to Mountain Lion, as it's what it ships with today. The machines are identical.

You truly have NO idea what you're talking about here, sorry.

How is it not the same? The only difference is the fan cover.. Ok, and the addition of the display port connector in newer cards (or w/e supposedly awesome connection type they use these days).. I forgot about that one reference design difference... my bad. Doesn't change the simple fact that the underlying hardware is the same.

You're wrong, again. I'm starting to see why you hate Macs: you have no idea about them. It has nothing to do with overclocking, or anything of that nature. The cable isn't a DVI cable, it's a mini display port. You really don't understand the hardware (or, apparently, even the software, from your last post).

Yet, that's not the point, is it? You're creating a straw-man argument. You're saying that just because the specs are the same, it works the same, and is therefore some sort of rip off. In your world, a TV with the same specs that plugs into your cable box ONLY via Coaxial cable is somehow the same as one that uses HDMI.

I'm not going to waste a ton more time with you, unfortunately -- we'll just have to agree to disagree. However, I have a bunch of Macs sitting here, so I'd say that I know a bit more about them.

Funny, I run the same hardware in the workstation I'm on now. And I also installed and ran "hackintosh" completely flawlessly on this system for a long time... aside from the motherboard...

Asus Z8NA-D6C
Dual Intel E5620 cpus
12 GB DDR 1333 ECC Registered Ram
I forget what gpu I was running at the time, but it may have been the one I still run which is an MSI N560GTX-Ti... or it may have been an older 9800. Can't recall anymore.

I spent a LOT of time in the "hackintosh" game. And sometimes I still consider going back, but to be completely honest, I can't stand Finder... even with the "Total Finder" (or w/e it was called) addon...

I've done the research... I spent weeks comparing the true differences. Have you? I doubt it.. all you likely did was read the brochure.

Nothing has really changed in the 3 years since I took the time to sit down and research the shit out of both sides of the fence... well, aside from performance specs.

I had to research this a bit to see just how wrong you were. Even a Mac Pro Desktop from 2006 (the first one to come out) can run 10.7 (Lion) officially, and without any issues. And if you upgrade your GPU and emulate EFI64, you can run 10.8. Everything from early 2008 and up is fully supported by Apple for 10.8.x (Mountain Lion).

My machine, a 2009 Mac Pro, has EFI64 out of the box. It's a 64-bit kernel, just like a 2012 Mac Pro. It's an Intel X58 Chipset, just like a 2012 Mac Pro. Same system bus. Same memory. Same supported operating system: Mac OS X 10.8 "Mountain Lion".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_pro

I know full well the differences between DVI, HDMI and displayport. The actual technical differences. Do you?

By the way, you can buy PC GPU cards with displayport. In case you weren't aware.

Oh, and you are 100% incorrect. I do not hate Mac, or Apple, or any of their products. When I first started researching Mac and contemplated buying a Mac pro, I spent hours and hours each day in the Apple store, comparing different Mac pro configurations to their PC counterparts. And then I dug deeper, and deeper still. All the facts are there should you choose to research them. And the facts are... There is absolutely nothing special about Mac hardware. Nothing whatsoever.

And to be even more clear.. if not for my utter distaste of using Finder, I'd probably still be running my "hackintosh"

Another failed assumption. One of my laptops is a Hackintosh, only because I bought it cheap from a friend, and desired to have OS X for productivity reasons. It's not as stable for me as native OS X, but that's part of why buying a "real" Mac was worth it to me. The day I'm too broke to afford $3k-$5k for a real computer every couple of years is a sad time.

Sadly, while your hardware might be the "same" in your mind, it A) won't hook up to my Cinema Display monitors, and B) would be laughed out of the store if you brought it in for support. I'm not into wasting my own time if something goes wrong -- it's too valuable to me.

It's funny that you're saying you've "done the research" when you don't even know basic things about the platform.

Not trying to pick a fight with you, it just irks me when people spout of ignorant shit while pretending to me some sort of authority on the subject.

It's like when Honda drivers used to come up to my Viper at a light and yell "I've got the same horsepower!" ... yeah, but they were still in a Honda.

That's another straw-man, because now you're talking about a GPU that would be priced like a Mac's GPU would be. So, you're not comparing PC to Mac, now you're comparing Mac to Mac and pretending like you aren't.

Today I Learned: Someone who you've never met personally knows more about your computer than you do.

100 Apple haters.