Originally Posted by brandonstills (Post 19496923)

You admit that it will eliminate jobs. How is that a good thing?

What's your definition of a slave? If you have someone that wants to work but have eliminated their job you have just made a poor person.

Economics is not about benefit. It is the science of scarcity and how resources get allocated. It's not republicans that are against minimum wage per say. It is anyone who knows that it won't work.

It will drive labor over seas where there is no such regulation.

If minimum wage works so great, then why not set the minimum wage at $100,000 per hour?

It's nice to want to help the poor, but you don't do that by violating laws of economics. You can't throw rocks into a bucket and hope there will be food. Why do you think there will be economic prosperity by raising the minimum wage. There is no logic or evidence for it.

Just because you want to help the poor doesn't mean your actions will. You're ignoring the law of cause and effect. The action you propose will have the OPPOSITE effect.

Originally Posted by Vendzilla (Post 19496798)

Minimum Wages are higher in California than the federal limit, yet here the state is almost bankrupt, you have to get a permit to have a going out of business sale.

What's killing small business for the most part is insurance. Taxes are a joke with all the loop holes. Barry says he wants to close them, but that's not going to happen, Facebook gave Barry 100k and for 2012 they got a 429 million dollar refund.

Originally Posted by brandonstills (Post 19496836)

Barry is more of a crony capitalist than the Republicans. He just incites hatred of the rich to get the votes of the left. He doesn't care about anyone except for his cronies. His actions are all about giving taxpayer dollars to corrupt corporations.

Originally Posted by tony286 (Post 19497159)

You must not be up on current events
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Latest-...budget-surplus

Originally Posted by tony286 (Post 19497157)

Why does it always to go to the extreme and silly? Fact we are a consumer based economy ,if people cant afford to consume it doesnt work.

Originally Posted by Robbie (Post 19497166)

We should be coming up with ways to employ MORE people. Not creating new ways to make labor cost more expensive. :(

Originally Posted by sperbonzo (Post 19495235)

http://simplefactsplainarguments.blo...less-jobs.html

Minimum Wage Laws Equal Less Jobs
With Obama's recent push for an increase in the minimum wage to $9/hour, it's important to look at the consequences of a minimum wage of any (economically relevant) amount. Unfortunately, when one looks at the situation from a logical, supply-and-demand point of view, it becomes obvious that the minimum wage is another example of a law backed by good intentions with unintended, harmful consequences.
https://lh3.ggpht.com/-dq8Jjek3fTE/U...mand-Graph.png

Notice the word "equilibrium." That's important.

Firstly, it's completely dishonest to claim that without the minimum wage, we'd all be starving and forced to live off six pennies a day. If a company posted a job for $0.25/hour, I can almost guarantee that they wouldn't get any applications. Labor is a market, and there's a balance. While workers may have to impress employers with their experience and education and such, employers also have to compete for workers. To attract workers to their business, they might offer competitive pay, good medical benefits, advancement opportunities, a good work environment, etc. In a free market, this balance between available jobs and workers is kept relatively stable. It's when the government involves itself through economic regulations like price (wage) controls that the market gets distorted and one group is put at a disadvantage to another.


The problem is that enacting a minimum wage law doesn't suddenly give all the working poor a decent-paying job. Instead, it forces employers to consider many people to be unemployable because their sudden increase in pay may not be justifiable by their production, experience, or education. The increase in pay due to the minimum wage may even make it economically impossible for the business owner to keep that worker's position anyway; what if the job itself just isn't worth $9/hour?


This is the exact reason why proponents of the minimum wage don't follow their logic to its necessary conclusion. Why doesn't Mr. Obama, if he cares about the little man so much, increase the minimum wage to $15/hour? Or $25/hour? Because by raising the minimum wage, the government forces people out of their jobs, and their jobs out of the country. It's entirely possible to put the entire workforce out of work just by following the logic of minimum wage proponents.

On average, unemployment for young people is 15% higher than it is for adults. Why are young people having difficulty finding jobs today? Because, due to the minimum wage and other regulations, it's too expensive for most companies to risk the time and money necessary to train an inexperienced high school or college graduate who will probably move on to something else within a year or two anyway.

Instead, the business is forced to minimize the risk posed by a higher minimum wage by only hiring over-qualified, over-experienced workers for entry-level jobs that used to be worked by teenagers and college grads. This creates a vicious cycle of unemployment for young people that can't get the experience they need to begin their professional careers; this cycle is compounded in a weak economy. I'm sure every college graduate reading this can at least remember a time when they were staring at a posting on Indeed or Careerbuilder and muttering, "so I need experience before I can get experience?"

I'm still trying to figure it out myself.

Don't let its proponents fool you: they claim that the minimum wage protects the poor and the marginalized of society. The truth is the minimum wage will only create more unemployment and misery for the workers it's supposed to protect. Minimum wage laws, by their very nature, only outlaw jobs that pay less than a totally arbitrary dollar amount while doing nothing to create a more favorable environment for businesses to employ people.

So what's the solution? How about "freedom of contract?" Wouldn't it be a novel idea for people to negotiate their own pay, hours, benefits, etc., without involving government force? If someone wants to take a $5/hour job rather than sit around and do nothing, why shouldn't they be able to? Should a willing worker go jobless or be forced on welfare because his or her experience, education, or production may not merit the government-enforced minimum wage? In a free society, the price of one's labor is an issue that should be decided between the worker and his potential employer, not the government."








.

Originally Posted by Wizzo (Post 19495342)

I forget parts of the country aren't like it is here, I could easily find at least dozen help wanted signs within 10 miles of my house for all sorts of jobs and that's usually the last resort people take for hiring people. I have a number of friends with businesses that have a hard time keeping enough people and not paying min. wage but much higher. Hopefully the rest will recover soon, I couldn't imagine getting out of bed for even $9 a hour.

Originally Posted by bossku69 (Post 19496884)

Totally fucking stupid. This now costs most employers not just more money to pay someone, but also more in payroll taxes.

Now prices everywhere will go up to cover these costs then more consumers will bitch about increased costs from food to shitty products at Walmart.

Fact is half the population believes they deserve more than what they are worth and refuse to take a job below $50k a year while they can sit and collect unemployment or welfare. What is the extra $1 to $1.75/hr really going to do for the average employee? Just enough to get them off welfare?

Originally Posted by Robbie (Post 19497166)

But what about the price of everything going up more to compensate for the higher wages being paid?

In other words...let's say Minimum Wage Guy (most likely a guy who is brand new at his job and hasn't worked long enough or done a good enough job to get a raise yet) made $100 (just using an easy number)...and his living expenses were $99.

Now the miminum wage goes up and he makes $105. But businesses raise the price of goods to reflect the new higher price of labor costs. So now his living expenses are $104.

Seems to me that all the minimum wage does is just keep driving prices up over the years.

Also, doesn't the minimum wage only apply to full time employees? Sounds to me like a lot of folks are about to become "part time".

Yes...it would be great in a world of unicorns and rainbows if we could just raise the minimum wage and everybody would now have more spending power.

But here in the real world...the price of things will just go up and the new "spending power" will be nullified.

I'd much rather have the minimum wage at $1 an hour and have the cost of things back to where that would actually buy you stuff.

Labor costs are a HUGE part of any business. Wages, matching taxes, retirement funds, health care...it's just ridiculous.

I know that I'm not here on this Earth to take care of other people like they are babies. So why would any other business want to?

I don't see how anybody could think that raising the minimum wage would ever actually help anybody.
And I especially can not understand the thinking behind doing it when unemployment is already so high.

We should be coming up with ways to employ MORE people. Not creating new ways to make labor cost more expensive. :(

Originally Posted by Cherry7 (Post 19497207)

The worker has to find money to live and eat, the capitalist has the wealth and power.

Originally Posted by Cherry7 (Post 19497207)

Only Trade Union and socialist political parties can help redress the balance. Then we see whose side the government is really on, when it uses the full force of the state to cripple the unions, slander and destroy any real political opposition to the dictatorship of the rich.

Originally Posted by Cherry7 (Post 19497207)

Those proposing not having a minimum are barking mad, you need a minimum amount to keep alive and to breed new workers.

Originally Posted by Cherry7 (Post 19497207)

Remember if you have a slave you have to feed him and house him, not paying a minimum means you want to have a situation worse than slavery.

Originally Posted by Cherry7 (Post 19497207)

A civilized society would have a living wage and a MAXIMUM wage. A maximum wage 3 times the minimum wage.

Originally Posted by GrantMercury (Post 19497211)

Raising the minimum wage stimulates the economy. That creates jobs.

Originally Posted by GrantMercury (Post 19497211)

Raising the minimum wage stimulates the economy. That creates jobs.

Originally Posted by PornoMonster (Post 19497243)

Serious? Wow, let's raise that shit every week then, until we are out of this mess, and no national debt left.......

Originally Posted by brandonstills (Post 19497246)

Nah, let's just make it $1,000 an hour. That way there will be no such thing as a poor person.

Originally Posted by brandonstills (Post 19497242)

Right........ And your evidence for this is.....?

Originally Posted by brandonstills (Post 19497246)

Nah, let's just make it $1,000 an hour. That way there will be no such thing as a poor person.

Originally Posted by Cherry7 (Post 19497207)

A civilized society would have a living wage and a MAXIMUM wage. A maximum wage 3 times the minimum wage.

Originally Posted by PornoMonster (Post 19497176)

Here in the mid west, I see lots of help wanted signs, and the job section of the newspaper is once again several pages long. Problem is, welfare and other benefits pay more than $9 an hour, so why work...

Originally Posted by Robbie (Post 19497166)

But what about the price of everything going up more to compensate for the higher wages being paid?

In other words...let's say Minimum Wage Guy (most likely a guy who is brand new at his job and hasn't worked long enough or done a good enough job to get a raise yet) made $100 (just using an easy number)...and his living expenses were $99.

Now the miminum wage goes up and he makes $105. But businesses raise the price of goods to reflect the new higher price of labor costs. So now his living expenses are $104.

Seems to me that all the minimum wage does is just keep driving prices up over the years.

Also, doesn't the minimum wage only apply to full time employees? Sounds to me like a lot of folks are about to become "part time".

Yes...it would be great in a world of unicorns and rainbows if we could just raise the minimum wage and everybody would now have more spending power.

But here in the real world...the price of things will just go up and the new "spending power" will be nullified.

I'd much rather have the minimum wage at $1 an hour and have the cost of things back to where that would actually buy you stuff.

Labor costs are a HUGE part of any business. Wages, matching taxes, retirement funds, health care...it's just ridiculous.

I know that I'm not here on this Earth to take care of other people like they are babies. So why would any other business want to?

I don't see how anybody could think that raising the minimum wage would ever actually help anybody.
And I especially can not understand the thinking behind doing it when unemployment is already so high.

We should be coming up with ways to employ MORE people. Not creating new ways to make labor cost more expensive. :(

Originally Posted by uniquemkt (Post 19497025)

A rise in minimum wage always brings a rise in inflation to compensate. The only reason minimum wage has ever risen is to meet the current (or projected) inflation-adjusted cost of living. You aren't magically making more wealth, you're just making more paper dollars to compensate for that dollar's value being reduced. Raising the minimum wage ahead of inflation will increase the rate of that inflation, raising it behind has at least some potential to reduce the rate.

I am often surprised at how otherwise intelligent and informed people just can't put those pieces together. Historically, minimum wage has never been enough to support a single worker family of 4.

Originally Posted by tony286 (Post 19497157)

Why does it always to go to the extreme and silly? Fact we are a consumer based economy ,if people cant afford to consume it doesnt work.

Originally Posted by Robbie (Post 19497166)

But what about the price of everything going up more to compensate for the higher wages being paid?

In other words...let's say Minimum Wage Guy (most likely a guy who is brand new at his job and hasn't worked long enough or done a good enough job to get a raise yet) made $100 (just using an easy number)...and his living expenses were $99.

Now the miminum wage goes up and he makes $105. But businesses raise the price of goods to reflect the new higher price of labor costs. So now his living expenses are $104.

Seems to me that all the minimum wage does is just keep driving prices up over the years.

Also, doesn't the minimum wage only apply to full time employees? Sounds to me like a lot of folks are about to become "part time".

Yes...it would be great in a world of unicorns and rainbows if we could just raise the minimum wage and everybody would now have more spending power.

But here in the real world...the price of things will just go up and the new "spending power" will be nullified.

I'd much rather have the minimum wage at $1 an hour and have the cost of things back to where that would actually buy you stuff.

Labor costs are a HUGE part of any business. Wages, matching taxes, retirement funds, health care...it's just ridiculous.

I know that I'm not here on this Earth to take care of other people like they are babies. So why would any other business want to?

I don't see how anybody could think that raising the minimum wage would ever actually help anybody.
And I especially can not understand the thinking behind doing it when unemployment is already so high.

We should be coming up with ways to employ MORE people. Not creating new ways to make labor cost more expensive. :(

Originally Posted by tony286 (Post 19497310)

Newsflash, you drive the cost of wages down. People cant afford porn memberships.

Originally Posted by GrantMercury (Post 19497272)

Demand creates jobs. It's the only thing that does.

Originally Posted by GrantMercury (Post 19497290)

Exactly. There is TONS of money sitting in the coffers of corporate America. They don't give it to the workers who actually did the work and amassed the corporate fortunes. The workers they pay as little as they can legally get away with.

And even THAT is too much sometimes:



http://www.suntimes.com/business/159...ver-wages.html

Originally Posted by GrantMercury (Post 19497274)

Grow the fuck up. :321GFY

Originally Posted by brandonstills (Post 19497237)

Everyone must find means to live and eat?that's reality and there is no avoiding it. As far as the people with capital, they worked hard and lived frugally to acquire it. The poor person has the ability to do this as well. The capitalist just started the process earlier or more strictly followed it. I'm with you on those who stole the money like the bankers and crony capitalists though.


You are focusing on "balance" and re-distribution instead of creating wealth. Socialist agenda is about making the poor person richer, by making a rich person poorer. Leave the rich person alone and focus on how you can help the poor person can create THEIR OWN wealth. The world won't grow in prosperity by fighting over it. It needs to cooperate and build new wealth. Wealth is created from the application of labor, capital, and technology. I would encourage you to find ways to create wealth instead of take from others who you feel have "no right" to what they earned.

You can't bring the poor out of prosperity by punishing the rich. Slicing the pie into more pieces doesn't result in more wealth. Potential wealth is infinite.

There are universal laws of cause and effect. The most effective way to bring people out of poverty is to discover those principles and follow them.

"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime". Plus you aren't robbing someone else of fish that they worked hard for and justly deserve to keep.


What is your supporting argument for this proposition? Society has been able to breed for countless ages without minimum wage. Surely, minimum wage is not a requirement for breeding.


This doesn't follow. We are talking about minimum wage, not slavery. A slave is someone who is forced to work for another's benefit without their consent. Any person who has a job is there by their own volition.

Slaves were beaten, starved, raped, and didn't have any freedom. I don't see how offering someone a job for less than minimum wage is worst than that. They can always refused and even if they accept, they still aren't beaten, starved, etc, and they still have freedom to leave and find something better.


Why? What's your definition of civilized?

My definition of civilized is a society in which people are free to do what they want as long as they don't harm anyone else. Offering someone a job, no matter what the salary is, doesn't count as harm in my book.

Originally Posted by brandonstills (Post 19497591)

This is blatantly false. People can demand all they want, it isn't going to make the economy better. They need to have the means to purchase it as well. But nobody is going to sell to anyone unless they are compensated fairly.

Originally Posted by brandonstills (Post 19497592)

What business is it of yours what someone else makes? Don't like it, don't work there. If you think you can do better then start your own company and run it how you like. They aren't forcing anyone to work there.

Originally Posted by Cherry7 (Post 19497607)

The capitalist sometimes made his own business, but mostly inherits his wealth, has access to money (hedge fund managers etc) or is lucky...makes ebay, facebook.

The system makes the rewards totally out of proportion to the contribution to society. eg facebook makes more money then new medical procedure.

All wealth is produced by work. Wealth is produced by groups of people working in society. No person can make a million on his own, (try it on an island ).

Originally Posted by brandonstills (Post 19497594)

What? Don't like it when I make fun of your logic? What's wrong with $1000 an hour? When you find the answer to that, you will know why it is wrong at $100 an hour, $10 an hour, and even $1 an hour. The principle is the same, it's only a matter of how severe you are going to make the problem.

Originally Posted by PornoMonster (Post 19497243)

Serious? Wow, let's raise that shit every week then, until we are out of this mess, and no national debt left.......

Originally Posted by GrantMercury (Post 19498162)

You won't see me put up a fight. :thumbsup

Originally Posted by GrantMercury (Post 19497282)

So we should slash wages? That will help the working class and the economy?

Originally Posted by PornoMonster (Post 19498527)

LOL you are a TOOL, if you think that was serious...

Originally Posted by uniquemkt (Post 19498566)

I can speak for myself, I don't need you trying to put words in my mouth. If you took my statement as a suggestion that wages should be slashed, you're just demonstrating that your position has skewed your perception. Thanks for being so obvious though!

Originally Posted by brandonstills (Post 19496964)

You're right, we need to change the physical laws of the universe in order to make them more fair.