:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

I watched WWE Monday night Raw and saw a bunch of guys in that EXACT same situation.

They "seem" to enjoy what they were doing and they were "humiliated" and didn't seem to like it.

And just like the girls in videos...they sign contracts and get paid for it.

THIS ISN'T REAL, IT'S A MOVIE NOT A DOCUMENTARY

Excellent post.

Diff'rent strokes to move the world...

You got yourself confused, dumbass. The majority of people that are well balanced healthy and normal, consider douchebags like you that pimp out their wives lowlife ball-less fags.

You're just a lowlife scumbag puke; you like pass yourself off as some kind of ladies man with such broad and liberal sexual horizons, but I see you for the deranged pig you are. And the majority of the skanks you've been with are the bottom of the barrel, they'd fuck a snake for a couple of hundred bucks, that doesn't make you wordly. Shut the fuck up you old idiot, you're not authority on sexuality.

man there are so many un experienced virgins in this thread its hilarious :1orglaugh:1orglaugh

Off to "ignore" for you. Congratulations on acting like a jackass.

:thumbsup :thumbsup

So what you're saying, Joe, is that we should tolerate websites openly publishing and selling child porn, for example, so long as the people selling it didn't personally take part in the making of it?

I'm surprised that you're surprised that some people disagree with that.

so when a girl is doing double anal in a video, there aren't really dicks in her ass? i've been duped!

Ive been working in Adult for over 15 years now, so for me that scene is perfectly normal. It doesn't break any laws, therefore, people have the right to enjoy it.

this one sure went off course fast

?Godwins Law? for porn strikes again.

Is sexual abuse of children a crime?
Is what is happening in those vids in question (consenting adults premised) a crime?

OK, simplified questions, but as far as I know the answer to question one is yes to question two it is no.

By the way: Obscenity laws = No freedom of speech.

WTH are you talking about? The only way to determine whether you believe in free speech or free expression is to consider your position on the most extreme content.

It's not very difficult to believe in free speech for stuff you already agree with, is it?

Unlike you, I expect Joe to give a straight answer the question I asked. Furthermore, I expect him to answer 'yes' to the question I asked, because he has already said there is no limit on free speech.

I understand what his position is; it's not a unique position, but it's not a position that many people agree with, because while it's admirable in theory I don't believe it's a position that works very well in practice.

Given your avoidance of the question, or even the premise of the question, I can only assume your answer to my question is "no". Therefore, to take Joe's fundamentalist stance, you don't believe in 'freedom of speech' either, you're just quibbling about the definition.

Maybe I should have been more specific. My post was not about the discussion between you and Joe but that it seems to be unavoidable that CP pops up in such discussions like nazi comparisons pop up in political discussions (Godwins Law) and about obscenity laws. Maybe it was kind of OT.

When it comes to law I am definitely a fundamentalist. Laws must be universal or they are just arbitrariness. Unfortunately that arbitrariness is that common that we accept it as natural.

There is a worldwide consent (something rather rare) on banning real CP simply because it is based on a real crime and there is a victim, not because it is disgusting, pervert, sick, immoral, whatever. Of course those basically reasonable laws developed into full blown hysteria and insanity with time.

When it comes to porn ?obscenity? allows the majority (or even a minority) of people to limit the speech of a other group based on taste or personal moral opinions, and that is censorship. Imagine the situation would be the same with religion or politics.

Regarding the initial topic of this thread the only question is: Was the creation of that content itself a crime, did a crime happen on that set? If yes the content, as a result of that crime, is illegal also. If not: If you don't like it don't look at it.

Normally I agree bringing up extreme examples in a discussion like this doesn't serve anyone, but to be fair Joe did kinda state *all* video including those depicting illegal criminal acts should be legal to view:

So helterskelter was taking it to its logical extension.

I can't get on board with this idea that extreme content (and now I'm talking about Joe's 'grisly videos showing every cruelty' stuff rather than the OP's clip) is "teaching important lessons". To me that sounds like a lawyer married to his ideology. More often than not IMO it serves to titillate, desensitize, and alienate and isn't doing much for viewers' minds beyond warping them a bit.

Wow that is fucking disturbing...

^ Yep. I think that video is quite relevant to all the claims about 'consent', and how the girls 'agree' to it, beforehand. Even if people agree to something, even if they sign something, it doesn't necessarily mean there isn't pressure or coercion involved.

There are plenty people who take the stance that (I'm assuming) Joe does. In fact I respect that stance a lot; it's a tough one to take, and I believe it makes a lot of logical sense.

I also agree that if you believe in a line, anywhere, then you believe in censorship. Most people, however liberal, including myself, draw the line at CP, which is why it's relevant to mention it.

Some men hate women.
Some men love women.
Some men want to BE women.

So there ya go.
Next.

Hello everyone. if one bothers to read the origins of the obscenity law, you can see how much difficulty the justices had in defining offensive content. exactly like this thread.

in the jacobellis case of 1964, justice potter stewart had the same problem. all he could do is utter the famous phrase " i know it when i see it"

as a result the definition of offensive content is wishy washy "community standards" It is applied subjectively, allowing face abuse to produce but max hardcore did time for the same thing.

this thread is another effort to define the line as to what is offensive. & like SCOTUS, this thread is unable to draw the line, because the same content offends some people & turns on others.

the bottom line is what lyno just said - if you dont like it, dont look at it. otherwise you support censorship.

Thing is, the video in the OP is not really about the content of the porn vid Max & the girl was shooting - it was about the behind-the-scenes coercion & manipulation of someone who didn't feel safe & didn't want to be there but was emotionally vulnerable, and how that plays into the idea of 'consent'.

Same as when a guy gets thrown across the ring or through a table or ends up with a broken arm on pro wrestling.

Last night I was at the world famous Red Rooster swingers club here in Vegas. I had REAL sex.
When I'm shooting porn, the sex just isn't "real". If you've ever shot it or been male talent you know what I'm talking about. It's stop and start with definitive angles and positions being mapped out.

The only time that any "real" sex takes place on my set is at the very end when I'm ready for the cumshot.
I HATE the "jerk to pop" scenes.
So, after I have all the footage and stills I need...I tell the male talent to just FUCK. And to do it in the way that is his favorite to cum.

So for about 3 or 4 minutes (keep in mind we've already been shooting a couple of hours), 2 people have real sex (as real as it can be with banks of kino flo lighting and me with a camera aimed at them).
And then when the guy is ready to cum...it's back to "fake" sex because I need to film a cumshot and take pics of it.

It's show business.

Back when I was male talent for Center Stage Productions on the East Coast, I got to where I refused to shoot scenes on a Friday.

Why? Because I'm the kind of guy who is "one and done" for the day when I fuck. And I wanted to be able to go out and have "real" sex with women on the weekend instead of "wasting" it on having "fake sex" in front of a camera.

I don't know if what I'm saying makes any sense to you...and "yes" of course it was fun to fuck hot girls in front of a camera crew.

But keeping a hard on while doing an "up and over" and your quad muscles are about to explode because it's such a strange position (but looks great on film) and you are pouring sweat because the air conditioning has to be off to keep the noise off the film and meanwhile you are under tons of hot light and lit up like the sun at 10 a.m. in the morning?

Not even close to being the same as having the sex I had last night at The Red Rooster. Or the sex I have with my old lady when it's just the two of us in our bedroom. Or the sex you have with a woman.

It's all staged and uncomfortable. It's a lot of fun of course...but it's just not anywhere close to what it feels like having "real" sex.

What I saw was a scene shot to LOOK like that. And it's used to titillate the viewer while he watches the actual sex scene that they did shoot.

Just like the "what really happened" scenes of "The Hangover" aren't really what happened.

It's show business guys.

A con man would be able to take every one of you for all your money as gullible as some of these comments are.
And I don't mean that offensively...I'm just trying to open your eyes.

Ah, my bad - not the OP, was referring to the hidden cam footage posted by helterskelter, which does depict some fucked up mind games & manipulation that you're claiming don't exist because it's all 'show business'.

But whatever, no one's going to change your mind and you're just gonna blab that everyone who disagrees with you are gullible overweight virgins, it's cool.

I'm speaking from being in the entertainment business since I was a kid (music biz, acting, pro wrestling, and now porn).

Looks like nobodies going to change your mind that a girl who signed release forms and got paid on a set of a paysite called "Facial Abuse" that is themed around girls getting slammed was really just acting and doing what she was told to do in front of a camera crew and a room full of people.

Instead of you thinking you know what's going on...why don't you go to a porn set and watch how it's really done.

And what else am I supposed to think when some of you make remarks that make it appear that you are not even in this industry and are just surfers who are falling for the marketing tricks in that vid?

I'll say this & I'm not throwing max under the bus but we operate different than that. We even use the "tap outs" as updates. That is also proof a girl can leave if she says she's had enough. To me, that just means I get to go home earlier. There are proper ways to do things if safe guards are in place. The girl in the OP thread came back 2 times a year apart. Heck, we filmed Danica Dillon 3 times, coffee brown 3, , moxxie maddron, hazel allure, hailey young. Everyone will draw their own conclusions, but the fact that when a girl does choose to leave, she can, & she will still get taken back to the airport etc. If a girl decides to come back, they are always welcome to. I think if you stick to the facts it dispels the crossing the line mantra & the victim mentality of these poor poor girls who are fully aware of what is going to take place. People need to be less judgemental of people's sexuality. Censorship is censorship. Just like there were some people/groups for sopa & pipa, it's basically the same to be for censorship of consenting adults doing adult things.
Duke

No way Duke!

Didn't you read all the comments from the "experts" in this thread who are convinced it was all "real" and "disturbing".

lol

Proof that you are doing a great job. You certainly convinced this group of people who are SUPPOSED to know better from being in the adult industry. (i'm referring to the OP's original post vid)

that is a different topic then what the thread is about - which is defining what is offensive, exactly what the OP said.

specific to your point. people have to be mature & strong for their own good. its not excusable to blame the producer of a site with the word "abuse" in it. the girl in that vid was not duped. it was no accident she was there. Other ladies have cut short their shoots with the duke. I have been a member & he's published shoots where girls tapped out fast. so the vulnerable girl is being mistreated angle is invalid here.

so for you to say she didnt want to be there is your own spin. She chose her way into the front of dukes cameras. I see her crying, but not running off. She's upset that her experience was worse then she could handle. The duke has never been accused of a crime. it would certainly be big news here in the tri-state area if he was.

Yea, he's naïve. What can you do though right? Aside from point out where he's wrong.
:)
Ds

Yup, as I said - the "OP" part was a typo. I was referring to the hidden camera Max vid posted by helterskelter, where the girl did in fact "run off".

if duke says the freakouts are staged I'll believe him but i don't think he'll say that.

I tried. But when you're talking to people who have never even been on a set...it's hard to make them understand. They view porn as consumers do and only see the finished and edited results.

They aren't on set with a room full of people and don't see the girls laughing and cutting jokes in between takes.

I wonder if they think that "Rocky" really knocked out and hurt his "opponents" in all those movies too? :1orglaugh

Well said. It's tough doing my niche. A lot of bs comes along with it but I knew that getting into it. I never look for sympathy, only ones logic & reason before being nailed to the cross.
Duke

Exactly!!!!
Duke

I don't doubt that some "freakouts" are real. And they film it and afterwards when the girl has calmed down and regained her senses...and laughs about the whole thing they use that footage.

Having worked in strip clubs as a DJ I have seen women "freak out" over nothing. Women can be emotional balls of insanity sometimes.

So yeah, that's very possible.

My point is that all of this talk of girls being "used" and "mind games" and all this other horseshit is just stupid.

99% of the girls you see working in porn are also strippers and escorts as well (you didn't really think they make a living off of shooting a scene or two every couple of weeks did you?)
And 99% of the time they are fun to work with and everybody does a great job.

Yes, everyone can have something in their life that causes them to have a "freak out". A girl can show up after a big fight with her boyfriend for instance. Or maybe her dog died that day...etc.

But I don't know anyone in this industry...including Max Hardcore, who doesn't treat the girls like gold.

And I don't know any girls who complain about being mistreated in any way. I'm sure that it may have happened somewhere at sometime...but it's the exception, not the rule.

No, you don't see all these girls complaining...you see them coming back to shoot again and again (as Duke said).
The only people you see that are talking about a video as if it were "real" are: Webmasters on GFY and surfers on forums (the customers who you WANT to think it's "real")

That's what amazes me.
Not the video...but the ignorance of people who think they are really part of the adult industry but don't really have any grasp of how entertainment and show biz work

and what about all the accounts from girls after the shoot of being mistreated, lied to, etc? how common is it to have to calm down a crying girl behind the scenes? i'm not talking about duke but just in general over the years.

the problem is your conflating max hardcores way of producing & applying it broadly. maybe thats why the feds targeted him for jail & the duke walks free.

Lol, did you watch that video posted above? If that's treating the girl "like gold" in your mind, well then shit, I dunno man...

I understand what you mean by real but my definition of 'real' in this case means actual penis in vagina (or asshole) ie not simulation. you can say sex scenes in hollywood movies aren't real because they really aren't. there is no penetration. and as for the comparison to pro wrestling, well as im sure you know many of them end up in chronic pain popping pills and dying young. you can't treat your body like that and not expect repercussions. if anything porn sex is harder on girls and guys than 'real' sex from your description of it. a lot of expectations and people lose money if it doesn't go as planned.

I don't really search around for that kind of thing...but the only ones I ever noticed were the girls who quit porn, found "Jesus", and a new career getting paid by Christian groups to make public statements that were derogatory towards porn.

In all the years I shot content when I owned Pure Candy Images I NEVER had to calm down any crying girls. My set was (and is today with Claudia Marie's site) a lot of fun and easy going.

A couple of years back I shot a scene for Claudia' site where she had an all out knock down/drag out fight with another girl. The storyline was that Claudia had fucked her husband.
So the girl jumped on Claudia, beat the fuck out of her and then fucked her HARD in the ass with a big black strap on dildo.

Of course in REAL life...that girl is one of our friends. We were laughing our asses off between takes through the whole scene.

None of this is "real".

It's shot in a room full of people with banks of lighting. And model releases are signed and checks are written.

Even "hidden camera" footage is manipulated to LOOK like a "hidden camera". Hell, there are voyeur sites out there right now that are 100% "hidden camera" footage...and it's all bullshit. None of it was "hidden". Every person in those scenes asked to be in the scene, signed a model release, and got paid.

If girls have had bad experiences (and I'm sure they have), it would be the fault of the guy doing the shooting.
And when a guy runs a set like that...they don't last long in this business.

Nobody could stay in business if the girls wouldn't shoot for them because of being really abused on set (mentally or physically).

Duke, for instance, isn't an amateur at this. He shoots gonzo "amateur" scenes. But he is very professional and very good at what he does.

And he's done it for a long time. He would have NO scenes to shoot if he were really hurting or manipulating women.
Instead, they come back over and over and over to shoot again and again.

Why?

My guess is that Duke has a good crew of guys and that they become friends with the girls and just like we do...everybody is laughing in between takes at the crazy PRETEND shit they just did on camera.

That's while the film is rolling. Neither you or I have any idea of the reality in between takes.
For all we know, that girl could have been the girlfriend of the camera guy and they laughed their ass off when the camera stopped rolling.

Or maybe she got really upset and stormed out.

One thing is for sure. This is a BUSINESS. Nobody is deliberately going to try and hurt a girl in reality. It's just not good for business.

But making you believe it....that is good for business when you are shooting that niche

It wasn't even a hidden camera, he was being openly filmed, so if anything that may have been his best behavior.

Gaah, for like the 5th time - I'm not talking about Duke's scene. There is a clip posted several times up on this thread, it's an actual documentary camera on scene at a Max Hardcore shoot showing a girl lose heart and run upstairs crying, then Max playing some fucked-up mindgames with someone who's obviously in a bad state. It's just about the opposite of your "it's always staged & fun & games" trip.

I'm aware now that you are talking about Max Hardcore...and my statement still stands.

Max treats the girls great on set. And again...there are no "hidden cameras" on anybodies set ever.

Everything I said is what I meant to say.

I think it was staged...but I'm not 100% sure of that. I'm 99% sure of it.

There is a 1% chance the girl really stormed out. That can happen to anybody I guess.

You and I do NOT know. But I think you are so far off base that I can't take your opinion seriously on this matter.

You weren't there, you don't seem to have any experience shooting porn or being on a set. And you are acting like a "customer" instead of someone with inside knowledge of how a porn set works.

"hidden camera"??? Seriously?

You do realize that footage had to have a signed model release correct? 2257 correct?

P.T. Barnum said it: "There's a sucker born every minute"

(by the way, the "hidden camera" part wasn't in response to you, it was about other comments made)

When does porn cross the line, follow the money

When Manwin got investment from wall street, Pornstar Punishment was over the line

When Visa stopped processing "sleep" sites.... passed out chicks were over the line

When Florida prosecutors went after Max Hardcore..... his films were over the line

There is no real line for what porn is acceptable, look at some German porn and you'll find some pretty mind blowing shit. Fact is human sexuality is very complex and its really different strokes for different folks.

Nobody wants to see models mistreated, but just because they are doing a bondage scene or gagging on a cock doesn't mean they are. Girls love shooting for Kink, Brazzers, Dogfart and other hardcore companies because they are treated great despite what the video looks like.

Having said that there are a lot of shady producers pulling some pretty bad shit. Anyone who says there is no exploitation in porn is not looking at the entire industry. The industry is littered with failed porn companies run by suit case pimps who really fucked over some of the talent.

Here's the vid again. If you're "99% sure" her distress & Max's headgames in the 2nd half were actually just staged, you've got some personal biases clouding your judgement on this.



Obviously the camera was openly filming during the shoot, but for their 'private' conversation it does look like Max is unaware it's still rolling outside the door. If he was indeed aware, as helterskelter says that means he was probably on his best behavior, which is also telling...

I think Manwin wanted to go more "mainstream" and working with Playboy etc., they decided for their own company that "Pornstar Punishment" didn't fit that image.

Visa lost all sense of the difference between reality and fantasy and decided that "sleep sites" were depicting a rape. I thought that was ridiculous. And it cost guys like FuzeBox a lot of money and time.

Max Hardcore was arrested because prosecutors went to a county in Florida where shipping porn to it is illegal. They then ordered some of his DVD's from an adult bookstore in another state. Then when they got their order...they arrested Max Hardcore.
Total bullshit.
His real crime was foolishly trying to flaunt and fight the govt. before they pulled that stunt. When you put yourself on govt. radar it doesn't matter if you're in porn, or if you sell shoes....they will take you down.

Nice dodge. but your lying...of course your including duke when you make these kind of statements:

you are entitled to not like abusive content. you are not entitled to lump it all together based on 1 example.

Why is bloodletting off limits?