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-   -   You FOR or AGAINST unions? (https://gfy.com/showthread.php?t=1122842)

Captain Kawaii 10-07-2013 03:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kane (Post 19824374)
In most cases I think they don't really help much. My brother is in a union and he complains about always having shitty workers on his crew because of it. However, I have a few friends that are cops. If people decide to sue them the union steps in and helps them with legal council and will help them out if there are problems on the job.
Thats not the unions fault. Thats the moron who hired them's fault. Well. alrighty then. 50 non-union crybabies.

DamianJ 10-07-2013 05:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baddog (Post 19825070)
you think you know something but you do not know shit
fucking dick
I do not know who you think you are, but you are no one to me.
go fuck yourself.
I was a fucking hero to some,
bullshit.
scumbag
Your idiocy has been really making itself apparent lately too. :321GFY
Touched a nerve there, clearly.

Minte 10-07-2013 05:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kane (Post 19825103)
If you serve in the military after 20 years you can retire and get about 40-50% of your pay for life. If you go in at 18 that means you can retire at 38. Should this be stopped?
It's a large part of the massive entitlement program that needs a serious overhaul. These early retirement programs were designed back when the average lifespan was a lot shorter than it is today.

There is no reason for a soldier to retire when he/she is 38. Same with teachers and all public employees. It should be like the civilian world. You retire when you are 65. If their are circumstances such as injured military veterans those should be dealt with individually.

I am a Vietnam era army vet, and at times it's almost embarrassing at how much I received from the government for my 2 active years of duty. I left the army healthy and I don't feel I deserved the same benefits as a soldier that left hurt.
Again, in the case of injured combat veterans, those people deserve what ever they need to live their lives. I don't have statistics at my fingertips, but I know that the largest percentage of military people have not and won't ever see combat.

Black All Through 10-07-2013 05:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizzo (Post 19823957)
100 years ago they made sense before there was many of the laws that protect workers today. Now all unions do is protect dumbasses and make others carry their weight and give undeserving power to the leaders. No thanks.
:2 cents:

Barry-xlovecam 10-07-2013 06:20 AM
I really don't think I would want 60-year-old Grandmas and Grandpas teaching teenagers in High School. There is a generational change and new ideas need to be brought to the table in schools by younger and more contemporary teachers.

For the guy (or woman) that worked hard on the factory floor or in the coal mines if you start at 18 by the time you are 48 you can't do that sort of work like a younger person -- you are ageing and tired of the physical work. However, if you find other work your retirement benefit should be pro-rated or eliminated until you start to draw your social security then you should get you full work force retirement benefit in addition to your social security -- you earned it with your work and/or your retirement contributions.

One reason I "retired" from the construction business was my age of 45 -- I was tired of the physical demands of the work -- so although a contractor I could relate to the guys who worked for/with me. I "worked the line" so to speak a lot -- climbing scaffolding sometimes 15 meters high.

I don't think I would want infantrymen 50 years old following the tanks on the battlefield ... That is not to say that there could not be less physically demanding work for those 50 year old men.

Minte 10-07-2013 06:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry-xlovecam (Post 19825373)
I really don't think I would want 60-year-old Grandmas and Grandpas teaching teenagers in High School. There is a generational change and new ideas need to be brought to the table in schools by younger and more contemporary teachers.

For the guy (or woman) that worked hard on the factory floor or in the coal mines if you start at 18 by the time you are 48 you can't do that sort of work like a younger person -- you are ageing and tired of the physical work. However, if you find other work your retirement benefit should be pro-rated or eliminated until you start to draw your social security then you should get you full work force retirement benefit in addition to your social security -- you earned it with your work and/or your retirement contributions.

One reason I "retired" from the construction business was my age of 45 -- I was tired of the physical demands of the work -- so although a contractor I could relate to the guys who worked for/with me. I "worked the line" so to speak a lot -- climbing scaffolding sometimes 15 meters high.

I don't think I would want infantrymen 50 years old following the tanks on the battlefield ... That is not to say that there could not be less physically demanding work for those 50 year old men.
Then there is the only obvious solution... Soylent Green.

bigluv 10-07-2013 11:18 AM
You can't protect the middle class with unions. It shortcircuits the merit system and destroys productivity, innovation and common sense. It also attracts fucking idiots and suckles stupidity. And yes, I have worked in several unions early in life. Unions also are set up to fail in the sense that, the wrong things are incentivized.

Unfortunately big corporations run amok have the same problem where they are incentivized to have poor outcomes for everyone else (even themselves in the long term).

I don't believe in regulation except where systems are broken. But I'm beginning to believe that some far reaching regulation is needed. Is it right that BigBoxMart can import chinese shit, pay next to nothing, game the tax system, and use science and marketing and behavioural research and monopolies/price fixing/uncompetitive practices to sell that same .50c item for a 10000% markup to the unsuspecting sap barey making ends meet? I'm starting to think no.

The question is, how do you interfere without breaking more feedback loops that make things work well, and creating more stagnant profiteering?

Vapid - BANNED FOR LIFE 10-07-2013 11:20 AM
I own peril.

kane 10-07-2013 01:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minte (Post 19825329)
It's a large part of the massive entitlement program that needs a serious overhaul. These early retirement programs were designed back when the average lifespan was a lot shorter than it is today.

There is no reason for a soldier to retire when he/she is 38. Same with teachers and all public employees. It should be like the civilian world. You retire when you are 65. If their are circumstances such as injured military veterans those should be dealt with individually.

I am a Vietnam era army vet, and at times it's almost embarrassing at how much I received from the government for my 2 active years of duty. I left the army healthy and I don't feel I deserved the same benefits as a soldier that left hurt.
Again, in the case of injured combat veterans, those people deserve what ever they need to live their lives. I don't have statistics at my fingertips, but I know that the largest percentage of military people have not and won't ever see combat.
I think the unions, especially in the case of government jobs, should go to the 401K system like most jobs. Both employer and employee pay into it. If you save and invest your money and can afford to retire at 45 or 50, great, you earned it. If not you you keep working.

I think any soldier who ends up in combat should get any and all benefits they can, but most people who go into the military don't end up in combat. I personally know about a dozen people who served in the military. One of them was in combat and one served as a presidential guard. the rest had various jobs. One was a construction worker, another was a mechanic, a couple were administrative people. The one guy I know that retired from the military worked as a ticketing agent for 20 years. If you work at a regular job for 20 years you shouldn't be able to retire at 30 and collect 50% of your pay for life.

Captain Kawaii 10-07-2013 01:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minte (Post 19825329)
It's a large part of the massive entitlement program that needs a serious overhaul. These early retirement programs were designed back when the average lifespan was a lot shorter than it is today.

There is no reason for a soldier to retire when he/she is 38. Same with teachers and all public employees. It should be like the civilian world. You retire when you are 65. If their are circumstances such as injured military veterans those should be dealt with individually.

I am a Vietnam era army vet, and at times it's almost embarrassing at how much I received from the government for my 2 active years of duty. I left the army healthy and I don't feel I deserved the same benefits as a soldier that left hurt.
Again, in the case of injured combat veterans, those people deserve what ever they need to live their lives. I don't have statistics at my fingertips, but I know that the largest percentage of military people have not and won't ever see combat.
60 minutes ran a segment last night about the massive fraud issues with SSI/Disability.
It is apparently being used as a safety net for the over 40 crowd who have run out of unemployment and is rife with fraud. At $135 billion a year and no active oversight no wonder things are in the shitter domestically.

adendreams 10-07-2013 02:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Kawaii (Post 19826004)
60 minutes ran a segment last night about the massive fraud issues with SSI/Disability.
It is apparently being used as a safety net for the over 40 crowd who have run out of unemployment and is rife with fraud. At $135 billion a year and no active oversight no wonder things are in the shitter domestically.
not familiar with the story but those people SPEND that money which helps keep the economy afloat...not sure how things would be better if they never got any gov money..oh yea..more of it would still be in the banks of rich people.

LeRoy 10-07-2013 02:21 PM
Every union worker I've come across. They are all experts in "work avoidance"

For the most part they're assholes too. In New Youk and Chicago it's bad

Captain Kawaii 10-07-2013 03:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adendreams (Post 19826019)
not familiar with the story but those people SPEND that money which helps keep the economy afloat...not sure how things would be better if they never got any gov money..oh yea..more of it would still be in the banks of rich people.
Thats the thing. The ones who need it, deserve it legitimately should of course get it.
Bank people need a French Rev OG Smackdown.

Here's a link
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50156574n

Captain Kawaii 10-07-2013 03:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeRoy (Post 19826038)
Every union worker I've come across. They are all experts in "work avoidance"

For the most part they're assholes too. In New Youk and Chicago it's bad
I see guys sleeping every afternoon in a Culver City park. City workers. Its a fucking disgrace.

kane 10-07-2013 04:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeRoy (Post 19826038)
Every union worker I've come across. They are all experts in "work avoidance"

For the most part they're assholes too. In New Youk and Chicago it's bad
It really depends on the union and the situation.

My brother is in a union, but the company he works for staffs their job sites with the right amount of workers so they all have to work and do their job or things don't get done and they could lose their contracts.

It is a different situation with government workers. One of my buddy's grandpa was in the union and worked for the city works division for 25 years. There were often times when they had nothing to do so their boss would send them to a location and tell them to dig a hole then fill it back in just so they looked busy. Other times they would do jobs that needed to be done, but they would have an extended time frame so they could take their time and slack on it.

SilentKnight 10-07-2013 04:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kane (Post 19826138)
It is a different situation with government workers. One of my buddy's grandpa was in the union and worked for the city works division for 25 years. There were often times when they had nothing to do so their boss would send them to a location and tell them to dig a hole then fill it back in just so they looked busy. Other times they would do jobs that needed to be done, but they would have an extended time frame so they could take their time and slack on it.
In our city, they had to install GPS trackers in all the city vehicles.

Now they at least know where they sleep. But they still don't bother to wake'em up.

Also, under union rules...employees are prohibited from fixing their own equipment (even if its a minor repair like tightening a machine bolt or something simple). They have to sit around and wait for the designated repair guy to show up and do it - which often takes hours.

adendreams 10-07-2013 07:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentKnight (Post 19826157)
In our city, they had to install GPS trackers in all the city vehicles.

Now they at least know where they sleep. But they still don't bother to wake'em up.

Also, under union rules...employees are prohibited from fixing their own equipment (even if its a minor repair like tightening a machine bolt or something simple). They have to sit around and wait for the designated repair guy to show up and do it - which often takes hours.
http://forward-now.com/wp-content/up..._bathwater.jpg

epitome 10-07-2013 08:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barefootsies (Post 19824053)
I have been in multiple unions, but the biggest was when I worked in telco.

I was a member initially, a steward for a couple of years, and later became management. I can tell you that unions have their place and there should honestly be more of them if you're "pro-worker" and middle class.

That being said, they suffer from the same problems that corporate/management suffer from in regards to bureaucracy and the stereotypes. Some of which are greed and power hungry players who are about "mine, mine, all mine". You have abuse on BOTH sides of the aisle. If it were not for unions, you would not have had the great American middle class talked about in history of the past century.

:2 cents:
I am from a union family (iron workers). Not only did my father do well (Mom didn't have to work and did what we wanted, when we wanted), but all of his coworkers did well for themselves, too. Even the owners of the companies were happy and making a ton of money. It was very much a "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" situation. This is very popular in business, but suddenly becomes unpopular when it is the workers doing it.

It's not perfect, and nothing is. Gold plated pensions are not sustainable with people retiring around the same age but living longer. Those liabilities (full or almost full salary for life, gold plated health insurance for life) are piling up, but it doesn't mean the entire system is broken. It worked for many many decades.

They need a scalpel taken to them to be modernized. They don't need to be stabbed to death.

Employers that actually treat their employees well usually do not have to worry about their workers unionizing.

Minte 10-08-2013 05:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by epitome (Post 19826412)
I am from a union family (iron workers). Not only did my father do well (Mom didn't have to work and did what we wanted, when we wanted), but all of his coworkers did well for themselves, too. Even the owners of the companies were happy and making a ton of money. It was very much a "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" situation. This is very popular in business, but suddenly becomes unpopular when it is the workers doing it.

It's not perfect, and nothing is. Gold plated pensions are not sustainable with people retiring around the same age but living longer. Those liabilities (full or almost full salary for life, gold plated health insurance for life) are piling up, but it doesn't mean the entire system is broken. It worked for many many decades.

They need a scalpel taken to them to be modernized. They don't need to be stabbed to death.

Employers that actually treat their employees well usually do not have to worry about their workers unionizing.
Life was simpler then. The Chinese were not a factor and you are right. Everyone made money. What needs to happen is that Chinese workers discover unions. Get their wages up to a point where there isn't any incentive for Americans to buy so much from China.

.

Barry-xlovecam 10-08-2013 06:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minte (Post 19826742)
Life was simpler then. The Chinese were not a factor and you are right. Everyone made money. What needs to happen is that Chinese workers discover unions. Get their wages up to a point where there isn't any incentive for Americans to buy so much from China.

.
Then we will all buy from other low wage production in places in Asia or Africa -- this is the "spiral-down" of globalization. If you try to compete on price alone you will get the least loyal customers -- the first guy that offers a better price for a comparable product will grab that customer. That is the fault in discount marketing.

Caterpillar competes with Samsung on customer loyalty, durability of their product, parts availability and maintenance service and not price. A Walmart or Kmart customer is fair game to Tesco moving into the market in example.

Price is not value but what we can afford or are willing to spend matters too.

Zeiss and Mercedes-Benz are good examples of competition on quality not price. But how many Chevys or Renaults get sold in the marketplace -- there is a seat for every ass. Interestingly, these autos are all union products. Toyota and its Japanese brethren have company unions. Not sure of Kia, Hundi and even Tesla ...

pornguy 10-08-2013 07:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaDalton (Post 19824525)
it's all about balance

but from what i hear, unions in the US a far too strong with sometimes absurd regulations
You should see some of the ones in Mexico.

Not long ago a new hotel opened and had a Van to pick up people at the airport. They did not pay the taxi union 4k a month so the taxis decided to stop ALL movement in the hotel zone of Cancun until the new hotel either got rid of the van or paid the outstanding balance owed and then monthly.

Had all vehicles stopped for more than 6 hours. No tour buses, no nothing.


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