It benefits the affiliates that use this forum...reallyusefulcash is now on my "do not promote" list and I'm sure other affiliates will see this and be thankful teencat did this.

+ 1 :thumbsup

Flower kid, Rastan, Barry-xlovecam, Roald, pompousjohn, Danny Deepwood

All program owners in this thread who were confident enough to say, "Go ahead"

As for the cost of the test joins, I'd be willing to be part of a pool.

Programs won't dare shave him :2 cents:

They won't shave him anyway. They are competing with all other programs to get his traffic. If they pay him less, he sends his traffic to someone who pays him more.
The rest is nonsense really. :2 cents:

Yes I read this.

If a company shaves but gives me the best ROI out of all the programs I push I will likely still push to them but I DO CARE if they shave.

That shaved money is my money and when times are good (2006) I put it away for when times are bad (2014).

That assumption is based on the fact that there are many other similar sponsors who can convert.

Very difficult to find these days.

No it is not. If there is only ONE sponsor like that who converts... they are the highest paying sponsor available. Whether they shave or not. Whether they are pretty or not. They are the only $/click so they are the highest $/click. You either promote them, or make a site to compete with them. :2 cents:

If you tell me you would send more traffic to a site that pays you much less because you think the site paying you more shaved you (and still paid you more) I will note your decision and simply stop talking to you. :1orglaugh

$ per click. It's the most basic math there is, and it's the only math that matters.

The *only* exceptions are:

1 - If the site is damaging your brand (i.e. shady hidden xsells, card banging etc etc)

2 - If the cost of creating the clicks they convert is much higher than the cost of creating clicks that will convert elsewhere.

I believe he approached JT a few times on multiple boards about his mysterious decline in sales. JT responded as though he was being ambushed and told him to address his concerns through proper channels. I can only assume TC did and wasn't satisfied with the theoretical explanations he received IE your traffic turned to shit overnight, etc.

Maybe they will throw in 'Bonus Sales' to keep him sweet :2 cents:

Wrong, I am not saying he is for shaving.
I am saying that IF program is shaving talking in privately would be bad karma when keeping in mind that other webmasters would continue to be shaved.
And IF program is not shaving and there is legit reasons there is no big deal for those reasons made public.

This is what I was talking about - you care only about yourself (or him in this case). While we are talking about the bigger picture and doing good research for everybody.
He is not doing this to "profit" himself, that is the main thing you should understand. He is doing this for the forum community as well.

How is he doing anything for the community? He knows his $/click from each program. That does very little to help you determine what your $/click will be... unless he shares his traffic sources and marketing campaign methods (and assuming you can duplicate them).

Let's say TC earns .23 cents per click. That means you will earn X per click.

What is X?

X is the ONLY number that matters.... and TC's stats do little to solve it for you.

Threads like these just push sponsors and professional affiliates apart (Robwod's point). They do absolutely zero to educate anyone because you already have the only two numbers you need. How many clicks did you send to a program, and how much did they pay you?

It's either true or it's not. No one has damaged RUC yet. They have a chance to come in here and explain and show how it is a misunderstanding or how they will make it right. If they handle it right they could turn this into something positive. At least in my eyes.

This is part of what is wrong with this industry. No people should not have to shut up and take it when they are cheated. No someone should not have to get permission to post things like this. No someone does not owe it to the sponsor to ask for an explanation first. It's the sponsor's duty to check these things themselves first and others have a right to know about it. If a sponsor gets all bent out of shape over a legitimate occurrence like this then they aren't a good business in the first place. It's just like all the businesses bitching about Yelp reviews. Usually the ones bitching are the biggest scumbags. Good businesses get people to defend them and everyone knows they are good. In the same way good sponsors do not fear scrutiny.

I appreciate the info. I know others do. You don't. Well okay. But everyone doesn't think like you. We run our businesses differently. It's our choice. Personally it means a lot to me whether or not someone is cheating me. My business model is usually long term to where current $/click values isn't my only concern.

For fucks sake, most of you cunts have only ever seen a test join in your stats

you're more than welcome to test any of our sites :)

Wrong. People making accusations need to have proof first. That's why nobody is allowed to go around posting 'I'm pretty sure you are a rapist'

As for Yelp, I've been hired several times to answer bad reviews for companies. They aren't answering bad reviews because they are hard working business owners who care deeply about what yelp readers think. They are hiring me to answer Yelp reviews because paying me costs less than the amount they earn by combating negative reviews. It's simple cost/benefit analysis.

Money divided by clicks = value

The rest is just another GFY dog and pony show to smear brands that idiots will 'hate' without any factual reason to do so :2 cents:

He posted as a matter of fact what happened and what he sees. He seems to have proof. You just don't like the idea that he didn't ask JT for permission to post first.

Good businesses do not need people to manipulate Yelp. They have real customers who share positive experiences and these overshadow the bad ones. It's the same way with sponsors. If RUC is honest then it will come out as such. If they have something to hide then yes they might fear such scrutiny. To resort to scumbag tactics to silence it would only prove that they are a bad business.

$/click means little if you never actually get paid that money. It's also something you can't rely as much on when using a rev share model because a lot of your revenue is tied up in the future rebills. $/click as a metric has more value for PPS and short term campaigns. But not everyone uses that model. You ought to be able to understand this...

Test joins can pick up on faults too, so pretty useful, I've done test joins before which have failed, then I've been able to quickly resolve the issue. :2 cents:

He seems to have proof or he has proof? Many people might 'seem to have proof you are a rapist', that doesn't count for spit.
They have proof or they do not have proof.

Honestly, you sound like you are new to the internet. Next you are going to tell me pornstars write their own online diaries and A-list celebrities write their own tweets. I'm sorry but that really isn't the way the internet works. It's why it becomes important to seek actual proof when you read something online, or to keep it to yourself until you have actual proof. It's also why trust matters so much, and why people shouldn't go around distorting trust arbitrarily without actual proof. :2 cents:

I do a lot of test joins. I am strongly in favor of test joins. I'm against libel.

Didn't JT from Ruseful close his account here on GFY just before Teencat's test joins? Hmmm.....

JT seemed upset that people were questioning him when he was being SO helpful gloating (i mean, sharing) his tube experiences - experiences that no other Program has been able to replicate.

Hmmm....

JT insists he has "no special relationship" with the Tubes yet he came from the Tubes....hmmmm.....and JT never addressed (or even acknowledged) or explained how RUC videos "magically" appear 15-20 times a day on the major tubes homepages when other Programs are lucky to get a vid a day.....hmmmm.....

Yup, seems legit to me.

He just exposed that sales are not being counted for affiliate and you ask "how does that help community?" ? :1orglaugh:1orglaugh

This should explain it to you....
https://gfy.com/showthread.php?t=1138060

And the bold part is my point. Why would anyone who claims to be in business, and certainly a professional, not conduct their own quality control testing and auditing? Why should the health of your revenues be the responsibility of another webmaster? I agree that what Lucas is doing is generous and, to a point, valuable for others. But I certainly do not see any upside for him personally.

And therein is my entire reasoning. Lucas takes this upon himself, for the betterment of his peers, and risks entirely alienating himself from some programs. There is little gain to be had for him personally in doing so. What he is doing is something that every serious businessman should be doing themselves -- conducting their own audits. But very often it seems like several people on GFY expect others to do the leg work and then jump on a bandwagon with no first hand knowledge themselves.

I just think that revenues are your own responsibility and, thus, you should absolutely have an internal auditing system in place for your business, including your affiliate links. I know for myself, we audit our links regularly to stay on top of any abnormalities.

Long ago this was why most affiliates came here-- because of what people like Lucas are doing. There was a sort of social contract or expectation of reciprocity. The idea is that we all share information to help one another. He might share something helpful today and hopefully in a week or two maybe I'll share something which helps him.

It's great to test all your sponsors but that isn't realistic for everyone and it's often a gray area. If you have 300 sponsors and you do low volume with each it may not be realistic or make financial sense to test them all. Often sponsors make it risky to do real unannounced test joins as well. Even then there are a multitude of variables involved in order to do it right.

Create a script that divides the amount of each sponsor's payments by the number of clicks you sent them. It takes seconds to look at that report each day, and minutes a month to sift the numbers by preset benchmarks. :2 cents:

wrong, clickshaving is one thing, salesshaving another..

I meant by sending test joins. To do 300 test joins properly with 300 different sponsors would take a considerable amount of time. In addition if you will not always be credited back it would take significant amounts of money (additional costs). Further a one time test join proves very little. To be sure you would have to randomly do test joins on a continuing basis and under various controlled conditions.

$/click makes sense to monitor at all times. I agree entirely and there is no reason not to with programs like stats remote and nifty stats. Or you can even used a spreadsheet and check manually. But as I mentioned before this isn't the only thing you might be looking at if you are using a more long term model. $/click today doesn't mean I will have the same $/click six months from now or that they will still be paying me. It's one of many metrics and variables used to make decisions. We each run our businesses in different ways. :)

Then I would argue one probably has too many sponsors. One problem I see with affiliates in this day and age is that they have to join every program that comes online. They'd be better off identifying their demographic and then targeting very specific affiliate programs that match their optimum demographic. These days, however, it's a shotgun approach which likely contributes to low volumes per program.

Oh, I am by no means advocating defrauding a sponsor. You do not even have to spend any money for the initial audit. For example, at the very least people should check their links and ensure the join forms are present, re-evaluate their traffic links, any tour leaks, make sure their cookie or affiliate id is being carried through the tour, any external pages, etc, to determine where tracking begins and ends.

A test join is not something that is done, or needed, every time. And when you do it, you *always* inform the program so that it can be removed from your account.

As Relentless said, you could easily have a script that runs via cron to auto check your links. We don't automate it ourselves. Rather, manually check all of our links, campaigns, etc. randomly, including checking tours, external pages and submit form tracking.

Frankly, I think it's just important for people to audit their own revenue sources for abnormalities. Relying on others to do it for me is just not something I will do.

Explain to me how either matters.

A) They shave 10,000 clicks.

B) They shave 8 sales.

C) They can't how much money the check they sent me is worth.

D) They can't shave how many clicks I know I sent them.

A + B = irrelevant

C /D = matters a lot

While I agree someone shouldn't run to GFY and start bitching and complaining without contacting the offending party in question first - something I mistakenly did when I was a newb - this is not the case with Lucas/Teencat. He contacted RUC, he DID what you are exoriating him for NOT doing: he contacted the Sponser.

Upon hearing crickets he decided to do this test join project and post results. (BTW: whatever his results they are but another piece of data, not the end all/be all of information.)

What I am hearing from you (and others, and especially in threads about the actual porn valley porn biz) is an argument for "BROhood". Keep it all in-house, under-wraps, person-to-person and screw the masses. If they ain't BROS then fuck 'em. Maybe that's not your position but that's how it comes across to me.

I think Teencat's test join project has brought in some really useful information for affiliates.

We definitely can. You are putting time into trying to determine what a sale will be worth to you years from now. Good luck with that. I am basing my decisions on benchmarks of what is now happening and what has happened recently with each sponsor... to forecast what will happen in the very near future. Your way feels safer, my way is safer.

Incidentally, you should look at sites that are WebsiteSecure.org certified... I can help you find them if you like. They are definitely NOT scamming their customers which is an enormous factor in the long term viability of their sales and something I'd think you would have an interest in knowing. Contact me on Skype or ICQ

Hehe, I've never been a bro. If I was, you can bet I'd be long retired and not still in this business after 18 years. It's not easy to try to run an honest business, but we have, and I am proud of it. My stance is almost certainly a product of my age. I'm from a generation where you took your issues with people directly to them, not in public.

Of note, I am not at all excoriating Teencat/Lucas. Not even a little bit. I am simply suggesting that he likely has very little to gain from it personally.

Hey, I have to agree with you on this and a few of your other post I have just read. Maybe you do know a little more then I gave you credit for. Well to be honest I think you do. Anyway good post

Indeed, Vendo is a 3rd party payment processor, often used by NATS based programs, to process european users in their currency / primary payment option.

Some affiliate reps are pretty open about the rules you stick to to make good sales i.e. keep increasing monthly traffic or else :2 cents:

You guys posting pages and pages in here need to unbunch your panties and fuck off to your own thread. This is a thread BY an affiliate FOR affiliates and it is most appreciated.

Spamming your opinion in here like it matters just makes you look like an asshat. Fact.

So please, shut the fuck up already, Relentless I'm looking at you, because no one gives a fuck and you've already made your point 10 times too many and you haven't changed anyone's mind.

Teencat, great work, please keep your research coming!

I'm with Lucas.

Ahh, welcome to the discussion. If I'd made my point sufficiently we wouldn't still be discussing it. If you'd like to talk only to teencat you should consider email instead of a public thread on a message board. If Teencat wanted to use email he could have taken Robwod's suggestion pages ago. Your keyboard-warrior blather doesn't make you correct. It just shows you lack the ability to discuss the topic. I am an affiliate. I'm also thrilled to know you are 'looking at me' whatever the fuck that means. :smilie_we

Relentless ...

If you really didn't care you would be laughing at home thinking how silly we all are and then move on.

But you don't.

This tells me that for some reason this topic is very threatening to you.

Many of us in here are happy with it BOTH program owners and affiliates.

You aren't changing anyone's mind.

2 cents ...

It's not threatening to me at all. It's frustrating to me for sure. If you search GFY years ago (3 or 4 years would be my guess) you'll find a very very long thread with all the exact same stuff in it. The guys from FreeOnes posted in it plenty, as did I and a bunch of other affiliates. The number of affiliates who understood the easiest way to protect yourself is $/click was much higher than the number who wanted to bark about conspiracy theories back then. As someone who owns review sites, certification sites, paysites and has worked directly with many sponsors - I know how hard it is to built a strong reputation. I also know how quickly it can be smeared by nonsense. It frustrates me. Back in the day people got called out for stealing, with definite proof. Now they get called out with kinda, maybe sorta, this looks strange to me... That is not the same thing.

Based on the discussions I've had today via ICQ and Skype I'd say one thing is for sure, many more people agree with me about this than you seem to think. I'm all for going after scumbags. So is anyone else with a brain. It's the silly witch hunts and 'threats' that someone might attempt to see if something is wrong that makes no sense to me. If something is wrong, find it and take the necessary steps. If something isn't wrong then this kind of crap does nothing but create discord where none needs to exist.

As long as you know your clicks and your bank balance nobody can fuck with your ability to decide where to send your traffic.

one data point is not significant. He did one join that did not track. One. This is an anomaly. Surely there can be a whole host of other reasons why the sale did not track correctly that are not the result of nefarious, dastardly schemes.
I dont agree that this thread is not damaging, the stones have already been cast and the association already made. At this point, no matter WHAT JT said, some people have made their minds up. He could come in here with solid proof and it would no longer matter.

Then again, if I was doing as well as JT, I probably wouldnt care what the GFY crowd thought.

You have no say. You don't know your head from your ass and I think you should logically go fuck yourself.

The largest issue here is people are using a ccbill code to start with. For that, and that alone, you should get your asses handed to you!

I'm just putting a hypothetical because I know JT was exploring billing options (which he has obviously made the wrong decision), but it could be that he is beta testing a bunch of lander pages and in the mix did not carry a ccbill code?

Doesn't make sense from TeenCats original push date... but does make sense that yesterday was the post of the anomaly.

That being said... please try and take this the right way... if you are pushing ANY program with 3rd party cookies I STRONGLY urge you to stop. For the sake of your future... stop the madness already!!

Is this the correct place ?
 

For this :

You initially said that your motivation for posting was you were concerned about Lucas ? About him spending money and his reputation being tarnished by other program owners.

Now you say you're worried about programs' reputations.

Again. I mentioned above that many program owners are okay with this.

Many program managers are okay with this.

Many affiliates are okay with this.

Lucas is okay with this.

I don't think you need to be so STRONGLY concerned for them. They are grown adults who can speak for themselves.