So basically... you saved him a ton of research work. Feel used much? :disgust

I dont mind that...It happens oddly Fox Business news not only credited me they credited mikesouth.com as well apparently ABC felt entitled to it.

What bothered me is that they were insistent that they wanted to do hard hitting piece...and what they did anything but...

Probably because this is way more interesting for the average viewer than a boring story about mangeek....

once again - the german model is: no hardcore content without age verification - which is usually done through the payment process. there is no pussy for free on a .de domain. and also no filesharing, no torrent and no message boards with that type of content.

the problem is: how to outlaw that in general on the whole internet?

that would work only through ICANN probably - you lose your domain when you post porn without age verification.

I agree, I thought the package was well-done. it did a good job of telling the story by interviewing the girls and introducing tubes, then tied those 2 together by showing the tubes buying spree and the consequence of that- those girls end up working for the very company that runs the tubes.

With the exception of Nate's part, that came off like an ad for the tube sites.

Agreed, and because your example is correct, doesn't mean my example isn't.

I can agree with that as well, to an extent. Just to clarify, as it's easy to forget who has said what previously - I have ZERO problem with tubes - I don't whine like a bitch about them taking sales away, blahblahblah - I think their every move (mindgeek I'm talking here) has been pure genius, from exploiting the loophole that is dmca to do a huge traffic grab, to most likely themselves rubbing their hands at the prospect of some future legislation stipulating paywalls for hardcore - they will get an avalanche of cash overnight with all the extra surfers switching to their 'premium service'. Those guys know their shit, had the balls to do it, and fucking fair play to them.

So anyway, with my stance (or non-stance, as the case actually is) on tubes stated - there's a limit to what people will tolerate, and no way will the argument of 'free speech' and 'whut! that's censorship!' hold out forever (that's without it being a crock of shit as a viable reason anyway to be able to continue) because the fact is, we are obviously evolving fast as fuck technology wise - parent's can't stop their kid looking up shit eating, double anal, rape fantasy scenes, gagging, and all the other niches that are on the edgier side if the next parent hasn't put a block on *their* kid being able to access it. And that is what almost all laws have their base in - the dumb few having to have legalities put into in place to 'protect' all the other sensible people.

No matter how much people stamp their feet and whinge about it not being fair, just like any webmasters who still bitch and moan about tubes not being 'fair', it doesn't matter a fuck :) It won't happen anytime soon, but to think it isn't ever going to is a bit naive, imho.

I'm sure you can apply the same principles as used on P2P networks in order to identify uploaders who upload to tube site.
They are "sharing a file" in violation with the copyright laws. There is $ left on table :winkwink:

Even if that was possible, piracy sites will adapt and hide behide age verification. They will call it "user uploads" and then we are back where it started. Enforcing copyrights. Only now, we also have a global porno gestapo to enforce other rules and more bureaucracy while they're at it. And the porn industry will have to bear the costs in the end aka project dot xxx.

Another problem is definition of porn. Each country would have to synchronize their national laws, and that is not going to happen.

How do you know this and why do you go from 5million to 100 million dollars ?

Questions such as these are exactly why we need Paul Markham in this thread.

Unleash the Kraken!!!!

http://www.fubarwebmasters.com/galle...1/p/z13279.jpg

If Paul's busy, maybe Will76 could fill in... :winkwink:

:stoned

ADG

I was making a general statement, not linking the 100 million estimate to my example of 5 million. But judging from mainstream, Wall Street and other financial sources my basic point is still solid: once you hit a certain monetary 'level' then the power of your money increases exponetially. Think compound interest compared to 'normal' interest.

Once you realize the kind of power those millions can bring you it's a game-changer and most people who do not control that kind of wealth are clueless as to that power. Thus the Rich get richer and the poor-to-middle class continue to complain and wonder.


He may ICQ me with a response and I will post it. LOL!!

if this happens these so called religious groups or anti porn crusades won't see the difference between legal and pirate, so things will turn bad for all of us, so as someone said above we need realistic solutions rather than shooting ourselfs in the foot, creditcard processors involving in this procedure is a good idea for instans, using law affectively and what can we do for it is an other side of the matter that we should handle.

Autonomous might be the better word there. But of course you're right, consequences were always needed for this, and until there are this problem won't go away anytime soon. You know there was always a demand out there for "more free porn!", trust webmasters to figure out how to deliver it better or create scripting that allows the end user to share at will. Everyone's looking to blame the problem on something, the weak DMCA, tubes, even the talent has been blamed in this thread. I say the real blame will always circle back to those people who've sought ways to give away more and more free porn. As in people from our own ranks. IE: Webmasters.

Seriously, what other industry does this? Certainly not the food industry, I see no massive giveaways going on at any of my local markets. Clothing? Nope. Movie industry perhaps? Hmm, still seems to cost about a dozen bucks to get into a theatre these days, and a fairly tight lid is kept on pirating of new films. Why would Hollywood do this when they could set up movie tube sites and give their stuff away for free? Oh that's right, they're in it to make money. Shit why didn't we think of that?

On a side note that guy Gideongallery who used to post here, it would have been interesting to see him come in and argue with you, Patrick the hun, on why you're wrong and why it's a God-given right people have to take what isn't theirs and upload it or profit from it as they see fit. :D


All I know is, as a webmaster when I go to a site like tube8 or pornhub and look around a bit all I can think of is why would anyone pay for porn when it's all right there for free? Pick any porn star, type her in and hit search and chances are good that all or nearly all of her clips will be there. There's more porn video on the tubes than anyone could watch in a lifetime. In three lifetimes. Gosh, when will a giant box store called FOODTUBE open where we can all just go in anytime and grab as many groceries as we can and take it home for free? Boy these other industries are really behind the times.

I still don't understand why 18 USC 2257 isn't used against the tubes.

AEBN used it and then quickly settled their case.

I used it in a BitTorrent case with an Unfair Business Practice cause of action.

And then Pink Visusl used it and I believed settled their lawsuit.

And I don't think anyone has since.

I know the First Amendment Lawyers Assoc was against it though. I caught a lot of flack for doing it from some of their attorneys. But it worked like a charm. A federal judge was afraid to rule on a motion filed by the defendants in my case for fear of making a finding against 2257.

I think 2257 could be a great tool to use. But once again Im sure I will catch flack for even suggesting it...

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lg...q9ko1_1280.png

http://anonsofliberty.files.wordpres...arrassment.jpg

I'm curious why the adult industry lawyers like yourself aren't better helping the industry (your clients) come up with good legal strategies for taking on piracy, or helping to craft legislation which we can then push for which actually protects the industry?

:stoned

ADG

Exactly. People do not give even one single FUCK if 99% of the industry dies so long as somewhere they can get free porn.

At this point, it's too late. You can't put the genie back in the bottle.

I did. Like I said, once I filed my case, Pink Visual filed theirs. XBiz did a story about the two cases and the use of 2257 and then it ended.

I caught flack for using 2257 because the industry was fighting against it. I cannot say why no one else is using it but that is what I was told. While no one likes 2257, it's law, it separates us from the issues the music business had in their litigation and it's a powerful weapon. Not only can it be used against tube sites it can be used against the hosts. And if that host is a publicly traded company, it opens up a Pandora's Box of issues for them.

To really police the piracy, you'd have to involve

1) Google - Get them to deindex sites that pirate porn
2) Hosts - Get them to take down sites that pirate porn
3) ISPs - Get them to block access to sites that pirate porn

If it sounds like way too tall a task for Google or ISPs, just think that it only takes the deindexing and blocking of the top (illegal) tube sites before shit hits the fan and EVERYONE starts scrambling to comply.

100 DMCA requests

101 thieves

Wrong, the US government already tried this with kids.us and it was a miserable failure.

Your line of thought is extremely dangerous because porn opponents can easily extrapolate your idea of isolating a domain name space and lobby for the creation of a red light district for adult content. No thanks, fuck ICM and their trojan horse.

Seriously... One website? Doesn't even come close to what I was suggesting

Who said anything about isolating a domain? A separate network for kids isn't a bad idea.

If you have a safe network for children with 1000s or 100,000s of websites it means the people who want to censor the entire internet to "protect the kids" don't have a great argument.

If you just put the pressure on the Domain Registrars then the problem can be solved in regards to the piracy sites. No domain no site.

PornLaw, I think one of the things holding people back is the Cash upfront to get started. if the wont see an ROI on the suit, they dont bother.

Pornguy - Agree 100% but six to seven years ago it could have been done as a preventative measure when companies were making money. Now it would be tough for any one company to fund that litigation. However a group of companies that can join together could do it.

The real issue is that most of the companies that could or would have done it are already - are now doing business with tubes so why bother. I still wonder if piracy was allowed to flourish in order to thin the herd of content producers. I find it hard to believe that no one saw it coming and didn't have a plan in place.

From Forbes... 2009 http://www.forbes.com/2009/08/04/dig...ali-joone.html

"In 2008, Vivid dropped a lawsuit against PornoTube for copyright infringement after the site made efforts to clean up its content. Hirsch says PornoTube is now one of the tube sites Vivid is working with ?to develop business models ? that will be mutually profitable.? Profitability is a huge concern to studios, since pornography has not proven recession-proof in this climate of ?free.? DVD sales are especially hard hit."

My early post was wrong.. Vivid used 2257 against AEBN.

what and who is mindgeek? :winkwink:
good video; but like everything, it is supply and demand, basic economics. :2 cents:

How? Have you been living under a rock the past 5 years you idiot? :helpme

What if this video (and the story how it will end up) had traveled back in time, and everyone was informed let's say in 2004 or 2005, how it ended.
Do you think anyone could have done anything so it ended differently today?
I mean, even if everyone knew it all 10 years ago?

I saw Jenna Ross yesterday at XRCO and asked her about this. She says that she was ambushed by reporters at a shoot and that when they were outside, Nightline's cameras were not supposed to be filming. The "No Comment" answers were in response to a question asking them their thoughts about piracy and torrents. It was a general question that didn't mention Mindgeek/Manwin.

They were using subdomains under kids.us, similar to the multiple individual sites that operate under Blogger or Tumblr. Those 2 sites are proof that with enough interest, just one site can host the vast contributions from many participants.

Everytime my webhost goes down I wish THEIR webhost would go down instead.

I'm not sure if that's a good idea. Using 2257 could backfire badly if that became a common tactic. The message it would send is that 2257 is not strict enough since many sites are able to offer videos without 2257 docs, LEGALLY.
It would eventually lead to more strict rules, the rules would effect the content owners but not the tube site owners.
They would most likely argue that they merely provide space for the user who uploaded the "video" and they merely act as an ISP/OSP.
I doubt the judges are afraid of doing any 2257 rulings I'm guessing its because The Communications Decency Act would provide immunity against 2257 breaches to the tube site owner... If they filed all their paperwork correctly.
Touching subjects like that could be an instant career killer for any judge.
Personally I would go for the "uploaders".

Tube sites represent the final stage of the adult industry. They will continue their business as usual until ultimately, even their business models of monetizing stolen content are no longer profitable. As the years go by, internet usage worldwide will grow, but revenue and content production will continue to decline as users become more and more accustomed to free porn. One day generations (even now) will say, "I can't believe there was a time when people actually payed for porn."

Does anyone else see it any other way?

Yes

Today fewer and fewer people are buying computers because everything is transitioning to mobil gadgets. So as tubes kill off the content producers... A time will come in when all the tube sites will be filled with primarly dumbfucks jerking their own dicks or fucking their fat girlfriends. IE: Pure Shit

After that at some point in time some punter will get it in his head to open a porn cinema with a handful of the remaining old good quality videos that he downloaded from the tubes. Then the entire porn cycle will start over again.

You are stating that user generated content = shit, while content producer content = quality. You sure? I know you're a guy of experience (not a kid myself too), but you should consider what's the taste and concepts of life of the amount of people born after us, and that these people will completely replace us soon.

While it is true that the amateur content includes fat or otherwise ugly girlfriends (mostly this was so in the past, free amateur = fat and older women), the amateur content lately does not miss the young and cute ones. Even too young (i.e. under 18) and tiny ones (do a bing image search for "stickam" with adult filter off, tell me how many over 18 you see).

In fact the youngest teens (and not the fattest oldies) are the main producers of nude selfies, either alone or fucking a bf or gf. So that's what you will find more and more in tubes in future. The issue of selfie mobile generated content it is not that the girls are fat, old or ugly, but simply that you have no idea who is over 18 there, because no producer checked and stored their IDs.

The "quality" issue it could be related to lights, backgrounds, screenplay and direction, but I disagree about the prettyness of performers being lower in selfies, that's not the case. Also the video quality of recent cams or cam phones it is 1080p crystal clear, not an issue there, as long as the girl does not forget the damn lights in room.

I was discussing with a preminent solo site producer recently, and he complained that "in cam sites like mfc or chaturbate you can see hundreds of girls as pretty as mine models, if not prettier, showing naked for free, and people can talk them too". So the added value of (this) content producer over a plain pretty girl (alone or with bf to fuck her) with a cam on her bedroom and no any managers or publishers, it is very little, if any: at most, better lights, backgrounds, screenplay and direction. This in some cases it is available in fair amounts from creative girls or couples, so from many submissions, a selection can be good quality still, from home content only.

Still ok: you hardly get an x-art, nubiles, FTV, metart, joymii, watch4beauty etc. type of videos from home clips, but, what a % of people only watches art porn, disgregarding anything else? I don't disgregard "home shit", despite I worked at met-art for 5 years (both cams and photoshoots in ukraine and russia). I find entertaining 2001 A Space Odissey, and if possible I produce met-art type of stuff, still I do like some of the random selfie girl or couple porn clips too. Imagine what if you ask the random guy who even is bored at the erotica artsy stuff, not to mention Kubrik movies.

So except the issue of piracy of new producer's content uploaded in tubes, which started as 100% of the tube content, the issue it is shifting to the availability of legit free home-made content of enough quality. The only issue you can find in this content it is the questionable age, but there's no DMCA issue.

More young and attractive (drunk) people will get access to camera phones connected to internet, imagine all the shots that south america, east asia etc. can contribute in the next years. Already you see more indian cocks than western ones in submission sites - the girls and couples are following - you don't care the country of origin or name of porn, you care to the video, and I see good selfie home shots coming. Either in recorded clip, or live in cams, in fact look at cam4, chaturbate, etc. and that's the future of porn.

First of all I have zero interest in anything under 18 and I have no intention of searching for it. All I will say is that I belong to the old school and if I find anyone producing or distributing under 18 porn in my neigborhood then they better take their chances with the cops. Because if I catch them then that person is going to find themself in a box with a lot of dirt on top of it.

Back to the conversation,
What you are confusing is the amateur that we the professionals produce and the average person creates. Just look at Youtube as a non-porn example... For every video creating "prodigy" there are thousands of people uploading crap. And in the end very few of these so-called "prodigies" can make a nickle from their videos so they usually never create more than 2 or 3 before disappearing.

As for the cam sites,
Every girl I have filmed in the last 2 years has tried to make money doing webcam shows. Again the situation is that for every girl making a decent living on the cam sites there are thousands trying everything possible to make a dollar and failing.

The smart girls figure out that they can earn better money escorting. They do not have to sit infront of a webcam all day waiting for a customer... Or... doing a free show hoping to entice a someone to pay for private time or give them a tip.

Taste, niche, etc,
Porn like eveything else works in cycles. Sooner or later what is old is new and what is new becomes old. One day the masturbators are going to look for their jerk off material someplace else. So as the mobile gadgets increase even I am starting to see old clients contacting me.... All of them complaining that a tablette just is not as good as the computer they got rid of. Unfortunately we are retiring out digital lines.

Nope. I think you are right. What it is is that the people at the top of our industry lacked business education. For the most part the people who started the tube thing were a bunch of frat boys who initially had little or no skin in the game. Now for the most part these guys have all left the industry. They took the money and ran leaving people such as ourselves to suffer. They didn't care that in the long term they were devaluing the product to $0.

What we used to enjoy was huge profit margins. The price we could get was far above the cost to produce the goods. We were able to get away with this because our customers had the perception that the price of the goods should be around what we were charging. These days now thanks to these frat boys (who left the industry years ago) the customers perceive that the price should be free.

They are saying the adult industry is a 12 billion dollar industry. Not that mindgeek/ mawin make 12 billion dollars.

I know. But if Mindgeek/Manwin has 100 million uniques a day to their tubes and is only able to get $100 million a year in revenue from that traffic what does that say about the industry being worth $12 billion at present? It's highly unlikely.