As I said earlier in this post: "the welfare bill contributes to that national debt for every single country that operates a welfare state and has a national debt." The above supports what I am saying and the fact that some research thinks it does not make a "significant contribution" doesn't matter one iota, it still contributes to public debt.

It is clear that countries with large welfare states do tend to be the ones with big government, big regulation, more intervention and also do tend to have higher debt levels. There's absolutely no question about that.

For starters not all welfare states have debt at all, I mean net debt as every country usually has loan program going on, so that they have the structures to get loan if really necessary.

Your saying is just plainly wrong simplified assumption. Also you make bunch of other assumptions (with tone). Your approach is ideology driven.

If I would say the opposite with tone it would sound like this: big government (oh yes..), big regulation (goody), more intervention (I'm on fire), higher debt levels (oh yeah). Sounds objective?

For example US has took massive amounts of loan to fund it's economy. From business perspective that can be considered as a good and bad thing. That has made lot of folks rich, very rich. Although some other folks might have to pay it partially (so bad for them). Good hit and run tactic though.

Some of you are confusing small businesses and multinationals.

Small businesses create jobs and innovation
They get their capital from banks, people, and cash flow.
They use good customer service, rapid development, and careful financial management to succeed
They use word of mouth and each customer is critical
Small businesses mostly impact their local community financially
Small businesses pay the highest tax and fee rates
Small businesses benefit from change and growth, as well as equal opportunity
Small businesses generally benefit their nations

Multinationals create regulations and control, while avoiding it themselves
Multinationals use lobbying; they deal in large contracts that guarantee revenue at the point of a gun
Multinationals get their capital from bond sales
Multinationals work to kill competition with regulations and laws
Multinationals benefit from things staying exactly as they are
Multinationals benefit large investors internationally
Multinationals create competition between nations

that's why all current and former communist countries were beacons of prosperity and freedom

:error

^^ Exactly. I publicly challenge anyone to name a country that used communism where the standards of living of all its peoples can be called excellent.

Take what you need = You'll take what I tell you you need. Remember the soviet shoe lines? You got a pair of shoes, any size, and you traded until you got some your size. Thats why no one except the deciders had shoes that fit.

Give what you can = give everything and more. Mothers turn in children, children sacrifice brothers and sisters, wives and husbands worship the government. One false move and we re-educate you.

There is not one person on this board that has actually lived in a communist country as an adult.

Look folks, we all know the powerful people will do anything to keep us working for them as slaves our whole lives. It really is just the method they use. Capitalism takes advantage of the 1 in 1000 that have brains. Communism takes advantage of the 1 in 10 that are sociopaths.