I tried to watch a lot of training just out of curiosity. There is the mental aspect "don't give up no matter what" that is good. But when it comes to actual techniques, it seemed to me to be really silly. All the techniques of disarming etc reminde of aikido. Looks cool until you realize that people don't just dangle a weapon out in front of them, available to grab. Trained people certainly don't.

There is a YouTube video of a guy shitting his pants at a BJJ tournament

I love Lee, but I think his size disadvantage might have been too great against an athlete like Tyson in his prime.

i wonder if it is a video of me :winkwink:

There is a video of him shadow boxing without audio and in the comments people complaining that there was no need to speed the video up so much - when it's not actually sped up at all.

I hope not. But as they say, "shit happens" ;)

Same, he's what got me into Martial Arts. But let's not fool ourselves into thinking he could beat Mike Tyson.

Back about 10 years ago, idiots in BJJ used to say a blue belt could beat Mike Tyson. It's just delusional thinking.

Weight classes in all fighting exist for a reason. And it's not because the 140lb guy has an advantage over the 230ln guy

And that explains why James Toney got choked out by Randy Couture, why huge strikers like Overeem and Mark Hunt lose to smaller men regularly, why Royce Gracie was able to win UFC championships against much larger fighters...

Oh, that's right, it explains none of those things :winkwink:

Floyd Mayweather has the fastest hands in Boxing right now. Please tell me you don't seriously think he would last 5 rounds in a cage with Aldo. Hand speed doesn't do anything for you when someone takes you down and grinds you out, destroys your legs with kicks, or lands body kicks continuously until you can't breathe.

If it's a lack of respect for Bruce Lee specifically... how about someone like Weidman or George St Pierre - much smaller men than Tyson who also would have easily beat him in any fight in a ring or cage with a referee. The only way Tyson could compete is if he stopped being a boxer and started learning the other areas of the game that are essential to surviving. A one dimensional boxer stands zero chance in a cage fight.

Again... Nick, I am not saying in a broken bottle bar fight... I'm saying in a ring or cage with a ref and rules ;)

The question was "can a mediocre lightweight actor with no fighting experience beat a highly talented, world class professional heavyweight fighter". Anyone that actually fights understands that it's highly improbable

That's where we split then...

We agree a good lower weight MMA fighter would destroy a great one dimensional boxer. We just disagree about whether or not Lee is a good lower weight fighter. Fair enough. :thumbsup

Btw, Today, I already did 2 hrs Muay Thai, and just ran 3 miles and I'm going to take a few hr break and then go spar 10 hard rounds. That is my typical day, 5 days a week. Apart from my other boxing and martial arts experience, I'm pretty well qualified to comment on the topic from practical experience

This has been my daily routine for almost a year now, 5 days a week.

Just sayn' I have a black belt in one style of karate and a lot of time invested in another coupled with boxing a fanatic Muay Thai training. I know what two fighters can do to each other, I know what a boxer can do and I know what a martial artist can do and I know quite well how ridiculous Chinese styles are for the most part. That's why the Chinese military had to piece a new style together rather than use anything traditional.

OK let's cut to the chase here, for real:

1. Mike Tyson would win IF he landed a punch. That's a big IF.
2. Bruce Lee would win IF he could land a blow to one of Tyson's pressure points. Another big IF.

Conclusion: Muhammad Ali kicks both their asses, probably at once.

Carry on.

PS: Squeals you are over-training. Just sayin'. Eat a donut, relax man.

There is no such thing as "pressure points" within the context of fighting and the way the Chinese use the term In the context of fighting. There are a few points where important nerves are accessible to strike... but it ain't gonna happen in a fight and it ain't gonna stop anyone in their tracks. Proof of that is that people don't do it in full contact fighting.... anywhere... ever.

Haha I eat like a shithead. I'm trying to wrestle that under control as we speak. I made a video to see myself train and specific techniques and couldn't believe I was looking at myself. In my mind, I have abs. The video seems to think I need to lose twenty pounds.

Easy answer is that Bruce Lee was an actor, and not a fighter. Mike Tyson was a professional fighter, one of the best to ever walk the planet. Kung Fu, also, has pretty much been exposed as all but completely ineffective.

I have no idea why I'm even bothering to type this. If you don't know it already or need help figuring it out, there's probably no point in telling you lol

And I would imagine every time someone says that, Helio Gracie rolls over in his grave.

A lot of interesting comments here. I would want Bruce Lee to win but I think I have to go with Tyson, simply because he'd crush Lee's skull with one punch.

What is Bruce Lee's favorite drink?
WATAAAAARR!

Helio Gracie believed that Jiu Jitsu is all you need in a fight. Modern MMA has shown that is false. Bruce Lee has been called the "Godfather of MMA". Because he espoused training in different fighting ranges and using everything that works and getting rid of what doesn't.

transjenner :thumbsup:thumbsup

correct me if i wrong but in Jiu Jutsu you can also use strikes

:2 cents: BING!

Lee in less than 1 minute, Lee knew all weak points, so it wouldn't last long..:2 cents:

You can. But the striking is very basic during stand up. Takedowns as well. BJJ strength is in positional dominance on the ground, and submissions from there. The man who built the house that the UFC stands, Royce Gracie was easily defeated by Former Champion Matt Hughes. It wasn't a pretty fight. And highlighted that Jiu Jitsu was not a complete system. More important, showed the importance of Wrestling, and it being the most important skill set to have in MMA.
Matt Hughes VS Royce Gracie UFC 60 - Matt Hughes VS Royce Gracie UFC 60

Bruce lee. :thumbsup

Bruce Lee :2 cents:

dude bruce lee is a joke...I could probably take direct hits from him simply based on his weight...I get hit by guys who are 100lb+ on him for rounds in the ring...dude my jab is probably stronger than his cross :1orglaugh

royce was something else...he used grappling in an environment where grappling was new...if royce were to appear today he would probably win only in BJJ tournaments...

dude there are no strikes in BJJ...you are mixing it up with vale tudo...BJJ is chokes and locks and points only...

There are three types of Jiu Jitsu. Gi, No Gi, and Vale Tudo/MMA. Consider yourself schooled on that gay ass art.

The question was, "Arent' there strikes in Jiu Jitsu". The answer is yes.

If we could dig up Bruce Lee, my money would be on his corpse to beat you within 3 rounds. If we could arrange for Royce to get in a cage with you, even at this point with deteriorated skills and age, my money would be on him to destroy you in 3 rounds.

The question was pure one dimensional boxer (Mike Tyson) against a well-rounded, smaller and faster martial artist using Bruce Lee as the example. The one dimensional boxer will lose every time. Go watch James Toney vs Couture getting taking down, mounted, pounded out and put to sleep.

The ONLY one dimensional style that can work in a cage or a ring with a referee is Wrestling (Greco Roman Wrestling especially as per Couture or Jon Fitch). It makes for some of the most boring fights but it can dictate where the fight takes place and a superior wrestler can get one take down then lay and pray for the rest of the round. Every other style requires the fighter to be multi-dimensional, and one-dimensional Boxing is ONLY effective against another pure boxer with boxing gloves and a boxing rule-set being enforced.

People love to say how fast Tyson's hands were or how much power he had. Most of that hand speed and power was only possible because he has no fear of being taken down, leg kicked or thrown. The moment he has to start guarding his legs, watching for kicks, avoiding throws and the like his power and hand speed are diminished tremendously. He throws less, throws slower and throws with much less power or he gets planted on his back and eats elbows for the rest of the round.

Good MMA Boxers like Johny Hendricks and Frankie Edgar are ONLY good MMA boxers because they are also terrific wrestlers in their weight class and because they have terrific movement. Tyson was a plodding, straight-forward, stand in the pocket and bang fighter. Lennox Lewis exposed that beautifully. The things that allowed Lewis to destroy Tyson are exactly the same things that would allow an average MMA fighter to destroy Tyson.

If you think Bruce Lee is a weak fighter, we disagree... but if you think a straight-forward power punching one dimensional boxer would dominate MMA... go ask Mitrione, Kimbo Slice, Clint Hester, Junior Dos Santos and dozens of others what happens when they rely too heavily on their boxing skills while facing a more versatile fighter or a dominant wrestler. Even world class K2 Kickboxers like Overeem and Hunt can't compete with much smaller, faster, more versatile fighters and they at least have a kicking arsenal to compliment their punches. :2 cents:

Bruce Lee wouldn't be on the same level as an Amateur MMA fighter about to go Pro. He was a movie star, not a fighter. So we should really take that out of the picture.

Wrestling by itself would not fare well in MMA. As shown in earlier UFC fights, they were submitted, not knowing how to counter.

OK fine....but what about Jackie Chan?
He would kick everybody's ass. :D

If you believe Bruce Lee would not have been a good fighter, I disagree but we have no way to test that so we can just leave it at that. However, I'm pretty sure you'd agree a guy like Aldo (even though he is much smaller) would still have a chance against a pure boxer... and guys closer in weight like Weidman, St Pierre, Jones, Couture and all the rest would have destroyed Tyson much the same way Couture wrecked Toney in less than one round.

People like to bring up Chuck Liddell as a pure boxer because most of his game was punches, but they fail to take into account how good his wrestling background was and how good his TDD was when he fought. I completely agree one dimensional wrestler is a BAD idea. However, if you could have only one dimension... Wrestling is the one you'd want as it's the only one that gives you any chance of scraping out a win all by itself. Hell it almost made Jon Fitch a champion, even if the crowd was yawning its way through most of his fights. And as a choice, Boxing is about the worst one dimension you could pick unless you are fighting another boxer in a boxing ring with boxing rules and boxing gloves.

I think Also in a life and death situation would destroy a boxer many times his weight class. And totally agree with on any of the LHW and HW from MMA destroying Tyson. Shit, I'd think GSP would have murdered him, as well as many in that weight class.

Myself as a Parent, and coach to a future MMA fighter, had my son stop BJJ and for the next 8 years wrestle in High School and D2. That's how important wrestling is to MMA, in my eyes and others anyways.

I think one of the most awesome things about Mike Tyson now is his humility.
Mike Tyson Believes Royce Gracie Would Have Defeated Him in 1993 | Bleacher Report

the first problem is that bruce lee is 100lb lighter than me...

the second problem is physics...mass x acceleration...

the third problem is the limitations of the human body in relation to speed and acceleration...bruce lee is at best 10-20% faster than me...I am however 100% heavier...

the fourth problem is that when something light strikes something that is twice its size but made of the same material, the result is always the same...a kid can run with maximum force towards me, while I am inanimate, and he will always bounce away...always...

royce would beat me with GI no problem and I have no problem with this...I would let royce beat me no-gi out of pure respect for him...the only and only reason I would beat him with no-gi is that I am very big and very strong...if he was my weight he would destroy me like a little toy :1orglaugh

@Anthony

Agreed and Im not bashing on Tyson in any way. In his prime, the only one who had a chance against him was Lennox Lewis (who I believe is the best boxer in modern history). I saw Tyson fight live twice and the only other guy I ever saw with his tenacity in a boxing ring was Marvin Hagler.

In that environment with those rules he was an absolute beast. I sat 3rd row when he fought live at Nassau Coliseum the same night they showed the Hagler Vs Mugabi fight via closed circuit. It's still the best night of fights I have ever seen. Tyson fought a can, but from the 3rd row the entire crowd winced every time he threw a hook to the body. It sounded like gunshots.

Holy shit, you'd let Royce beat you No gi? Really? What's the last ADCC you win? I'm sure that cockiness is due to you being a No Gi World Champ.

Weight is less important than technique.

Only if we are comparing the two of you charging at each other chest to chest and trying to determine who will bounce in what direction. As a matter of physics it's the weight of his foot * the acceleration vs the weight and structural integrity of the orbital bone around your eye.... a strike doesn't hit your entire body, it hits one specific part... and that is exactly the kind of thing Lee professed throughout his life. It's a point you may have missed.

The reason weight matters so much in fights is much more about endurance (a smaller man carrying a larger one exhausts much quicker) and when all other things are EQUAL it matters an awful lot (i.e. one boxer vs another). You take two unequal fighters and weight becomes much less important. If you don't think much of Lee, fine... but I'd be very slow to agree to get in a cage with Aldo or Mighty Mouse no matter how much more you weigh than they do.


Ask Pernell Whitaker about that. He was likely 50% faster than you and got hit only when he decided to trade or was well past his prime. If 20% allows you to hit and not be hit, 20% is all that matters.

If you punch a brass doorknob you will break your hand. If you punch the center of that same cheap wood interior door your hand will go right through it. Knowing where and how to hit determines the strength of the material you are hitting. I can kick your knee all day and never feel much pain myself... but if I start kicking your shins Ill be taking plenty of damage. A kid may run maximum force into you, a smaller martial artist would stop a few feet before running into you and pick you apart. Watch the way Randy Couture destroyed James Toney while weighing 25 pounds less than him.

Royce would beat you with a Gi, without a Gi, in a house, on a farm, with a mouse, in an airplane, while SCUBA diving or anywhere else Royce wanted to beat you. Skill and technique are infinitely more important than weight. If your skill level isn't at least very close, your weight becomes less and less important.

I am 6'4 245... and I'd be much more concerned about a 5'8 160 pound properly trained fighter than I am about a 6'8 320 pound amateur. In a 5 round cage fight a giant amateur may win, but Aldo would likely turn me into an amputee and Royce could kill literally me if he chose to do so. I am not a professional fighter... but I am smart enough to know who not to fight...