What is the very problem? US folks trashing around? You can't talk about man-made climate change and not to trash at the same time?

Hi Eon,

You can post plain-english questions like the ones above into Google. Try it out and you'll find lots of information to answer your questions I'm sure.

Your last question, "If warming is bad does that mean cooling is good?" is a good one. If I had to guess I'd say that right now, all life exists on the earth for all kinds of reasons and one of them is the very comfortable average temperature of the earth. IF it gets too warm, the sea rises and weather changes. If it gets too cold, the sea level drops and weather changes again too, affecting who knows what. Too warm or too cold is obviously not ideal. If people can figure out a way to stop the current trend of the warming of the climate, we can keep things in the comfort zone and all life will be able to continue to exist.

I don't drink water from water bottles at home and almost never buy them when I am out, except when I am at a bar. When I do use bottles I take advantage of the recycle programs.

The website you hot linked the picture from, Two Hands Project, only goes to prove my point even more: Pollution is out of control, and instead of fighting me on it Dynamo, you should stop being an armchair critic and help do something about it.

I switched my energy requirements from Oil to electricity because here in Quebec, Electricity comes from renewable, sustainable, and lower polluting sources. Why do you want me to keep buying oil?

And just because things will only be a disaster in 100 years from now doesn't mean that you are right to ignore the problem. In fact, you are exactly what the Koch Brothers, a couple of old farts, what you to be. Why do you trust them?


Like what? I'm open to your ideas, even if you are closed to mine.

I never make it about others. I don't care what other people drive. I think electric is better than Gas for a lot of people, but not everyone. We'll never be rid of gas and oil. My entire point is that we should not be wasting it. A guy who drives himself to work in a gas car is spending more money, using more energy, and polluting the planet more than he needs to. That is my only point.

I am not elite green. You seem to be falling back into your old, hateful ways Dynamo, and you are making assumptions and speaking for me. If you have a question, please ask me.



You are reading things that I am not posting, saying or implying, sir Dyna.

Peace.

certainly you are joking. CO2/greenhouse gas has nothing to do with plastic.

I think you didn't get the question. Me ask more simple. What is the deal with that bottle picture?

No, you absolutely can not...

i can selectively go and find evidence for the existence lizard people for both video and articles, can I find out the truth with that alone? Or did i just cherry pick facts to prove a bogus point?

Ok, here's my question:

why do you post shit like this about me personally:

And then add to that by making wrong generalized personal comments about me claiming I'm falling into some sort of old hateful way, depressed and am lazy and apathetic in another thinly veiled attempt to make it personal?


Not to mention how many times I've mentioned to you my personal actions and views on my own environment, my local area and what I do about it, yet here you are telling me that I am making assumptions while you wrongly portray my views and more importantly, my actions.


you need to try harder with your trolling. a lot of loose ends in your game.

Yes there is.. We have shit loads of data gathered from the ice sheets from both poles. It's just certain people choose to pretend the data doesn't exist or that it's somehow questionable. Meanwhile 97% of scientist agree man is speeding up global warming yet we have experts here on GFY whom will say otherwise..

I fully understood the question and answered it.

here, I'll answer it again.

no, you cannot talk about plastic trash pollution/littering and manmad climate change in the conversation. That's the problem. the debate is a debate, about whether or not manmade climate change is real and until the debate is settled, many do not act.

there is no debate re: plastic pollution. it's a real problem and the issue gets lost in the manmade climate change debate, such as how you are thinking the 2 are the same, they are not at all.

I haven't said they are the same. You posted some fucking trash pic in this thread, not me. Some "Do not trash." is the kind of stuff that parents teach to children, and at least in kinder garten they teach that. I don't see how talking about climate change contradicts with this. Not trashing is basic behaviour, just like not shitting at the middle of the street.

FYI, plastic pollution is a global problem. You can try and make it about some sort of lack of lessons USA parents teach our children, but that only makes you look sillier than you already do by not knowing these 2 topics are not discussed in the same context.

crockett, that only shows different times that the Earth was different temps and had different quantities of different gases in the atmosphere. Which shows that there is NO "normal" for the Earth.
It is ever-changing and ever-evolving.

Again, you posted that trash pic, not me.

Plastic pollution is a global problem, but not trashing is not very high end science, and it is about teaching kids, and adults too if necessary. Excluding the plastic that comes from washing clothes. Solving that requires for some higher end science, or banning certain type of products.

Nice to see that, unlike some other alarmists here, you are able to respond in a polite and civil manner. When people agree to disagree it can turn heated arguments into calm discussion.

Anyways, the questions I posted above were largely rhetorical. I think you understand that there are no definitive answers to those questions.

What is known right now though, is that the current average temperature of the Earth is well below what the average has been for the majority of the earth's history. Compared to most of that history we are about as low as the earth has ever been. Staying at this temperature or cooling even further is the anomalous condition whereas warming is a step toward returning to normal. Even the last interglacial period, the Eemian, was up to 4 degrees warmer than today despite having a lower CO2 concentration in the atmosphere.

There are far greater forces at play here than CO2 concentration and I think it is nothing but human hubris to think we can significantly affect the outcome either way.


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and that is exactly my point, I am glad someone is on the same page.

the problem is the debate about climate change distracts people from the littering problem, which is made worse by how simple it is to not be a litterbug, such as stopping using single serving plastic containers or stopping flicking cigarette butts into the street.
both done by people hypocritically goading others that the science of manmade climate change is settled and they need to do something about that.

here's a youtube that illustrates my point.



back in the day we had a very simple ad campaign that was very effective because it focused on personal action, not pie in the sky science concepts to curb pollution

the Carbon issue is big business polluting, not you and me. nevertheless, that is supported indirectly by people who buy EV cars and such thinking that adding a car to the total is helping. but the opportunity for US to make an impactful change is what we can do with our personal behavior.

the litter (plastic) issue is a pollution problem that each of us can make a profound diffrence about and very simply too.

sometimes your insight is just so on the money & stated 50 times better than anything i coulda said. nice!

this comment is why you fail. Humans cannot & will never yield the collective power to stop how we effect the climate. to even try would be a total waste of energy cause someone else will cheat, human nature. & theres no proof what we're doing is any threat whatsoever to our continued existence. overpopulation & nuclear terrorism are far greater existential threats to mankind than a melting glacier. get with it, man!

you should worry about the islamic bomb. look how the instability & irans ambitions converge somewhere in the next 2 generations.

Climate change is just a 1,500 year cycle:
http://www.clim-past.net/3/569/2007/cp-3-569-2007.pdf

Hi Joshua,

So... are you saying we should just do nothing about it at all?

Agreed. Accept or deny the science, it would not hurt for anyone to be a little more green. Reduce energy use, recycle, take your bike to work instead of your car, etc.

That's weather. Weather isn't climate.

I'd disagree. I think there ARE real answers out there, but there is too much opposition fuelled by big business to keep people consuming and wasting the way they are now, preventing enough people from considering alternatives.

There is no "we".

What is being "done" is a group of very rich people are getting richer through the whole "carbon trading" scheme.
Not sure if that has done anything at all to "fix" the "problem" that you believe mankind is responsible for.

I'm pretty sure that not one rational person would say "No, we should pollute more!"

But this isn't about pollution. It's about an industry using scare tactics and fearmongering to make billions of dollars.

Hi Eon,


To clarify, it's not just C02. It's Co2, Methane, and other "greenhouse gasses" that collect high in the atmosphere and reflect heat back to the earth.

I also partially agree with you that there is more to the problem than just CO2, and I agree that deforestation is also part of the problem. We need forests to absorb CO2 from the air and put it into the ground, right? Right. It's the combination of excess production of C02 into the air AND the reduction of forests together that is causing the problem.

I know. And not just those poor creatures... lots of others too. Very fucking sad.

Hi again Eon,

Nobody is a greater authority on the status of our planet than Nasa, National Geographic and NOAA. Here are their answers to your questions:

"average surface temperatures could rise between 2°C and 6°C by the end of the 21st century."
Global Warming : Feature Articles




"In Earth’s history before the Industrial Revolution, Earth’s climate changed due to natural causes not related to human activity. Most often, global climate has changed because of variations in sunlight......These natural causes are still in play today, but their influence is too small or they occur too slowly to explain the rapid warming seen in recent decades."

Global Warming : Feature Articles



"Core samples, tide gauge readings, and, most recently, satellite measurements tell us that over the past century, the Global Mean Sea Level (GMSL) has risen by 4 to 8 inches (10 to 20 centimeters). However, the annual rate of rise over the past 20 years has been 0.13 inches (3.2 millimeters) a year, roughly twice the average speed of the preceding 80 years."

Sea Level Rise -- National Geographic

How Much Is Too Much?: Estimating Greenhouse Gas Emissions - Scientific American

You understand that intellectually, the human race has a finite timeline. So if we push it up a bit by driving an SUV, it is all pretty relative in the long run.

WOOHOO!
I have trust property along the southwestern edge of The San Joaquin Valley

http://i.imgur.com/dzS3SMG.png

BEACHFRONT BABY! BRING IT ON!!


:1orglaugh


Actually the San Joaquin Valley has already been an inland sea at one point in the past, it is known as the Temblor Sea and you can dig up prehistoric shark's teeth just outside of Bakersfield.

Ancient sea life thrived in Central Valley - SFGate



nothing is forever

Don't China, India, etc pollute more than anyone in North America could ever hope to offset by any means?

National Geographic? Nice pictures but I would rate them pretty much near the bottom as an authority on climate.

NASA and NOAA are political entities and as such are tainted. If Obama tells them to fudge the data they do it.

Do you honestly think that any government employee at either of those institutions is going to step over the line when the Dictator/Emperor does stuff like this:

Call out climate change deniers

There is a full blown democrat led McCarthy style witch-hunt going on right now for scientists who fail to accept the dogma.

Read these:

The last climate science witch hunt

Save Willie: The global warming movement is anti-science, oblivious to how little we know about climate

Roger Pielke Jr.: I am Under ?Investigation?


That only says what they estimate it will rise based on the assumption that increased CO2 continues to cause increased warming. It doesn't answer what the natural rate might be absent any human influence. It is entirely possible that all of the increase is natural and very likely that their estimates are way off. Their guess is not an answer.


Again that doesn't answer the question - what is the ideal temperature for the planet? Like I said before we are near all time historic lows for temperature. Life has flourished in greater quantity in warmer temperatures than we have now. The history of the planet did not begin 80 years ago.

Keep in mind - frost and ice = death, warmth = life - except of course for the very few species adapted to life in frost and ice. Just compare the abundance of life in the equatorial rainforests to the scarcity of life at the frozen poles.


Another non-answer. During the Eemian sea levels were up to 20 feet higher than today. Where in the variance of +/-20 feet is the ideal sea level? If Eemian sea level rise was natural, why can't current sea level rise be natural? Again, the history of the planet did not begin 80 years ago.


That's just more hype based on the theory that increased CO2 leads to a linear increase in temperature. It doesn't. The planet has had periods of 8000 ppm of CO2 in the atmosphere and life flourished. Why all of the sudden is 500 ppm going to be a catastrophe for the planet? It's not.

Congrats for trying but none of the questions were actually answered.


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We ain't have no timeline, other than past. Unless you mean that we evolve to something that is to be considered as a different specie. That is going to take more than 5000 years. We have already lived as modern humans about 200-250 000 years. If we fuck it up next 5000 years by driving SUVs, it isn't worth it. Although SUVs won't do it, but you get the point.

And still, even if it is finite (speculating), when you steal the time; you steal from others. I don't think those others will care much about your relative bullshit.

Actually, it shows there is a "normal" in the time frame of our ability to live on this planet. It shows that the Earth has different extremes and is capable of becoming uninhabitable for humans. I don't know about you, but I'm not selfish enough to only be concerned about my own life, but I do hope this planet is here and capable of supporting Human life long after I'm gone.

I'd hope that as humans and having intelligence much higher than those monkeys hanging around in trees that we would do what ever possible to keep this planet habitable for a long long time.

That's simply not true. Humans have existed on Earth for around 6 million years. Through much warmer temps and much colder.

Looking at data from the last hundred years is pretty meaningless as to climate change. Scientists simply don't KNOW what's coming next. For all they know a volcanic eruption could occur tomorrow that will plunge us into an Ice Age that kills our species.

I'm not saying that IF we know 100% that something is bad (like blowing up the planet with nuclear weapons) that we should do it anyway.

I just fail to see how people making billions of dollars off of carbon credit trading is "helping" this imaginary "problem".

as far as collective efforts like carbon caps/taxes, or subsidizing noneconomically viable technology, we should not do those things. they make business less efficient for nothing gained. we dont have the power to stop ourselves from warming the earth while the population continues to explode. even going to clean energy will not address other externalities created by too many people.

as far as smog limits & improving fuel efficiency, i do support those efforts primarily for quality of life (i want clean air/water) & resource conservation, a different topic than global warming.

whaever we are doing to warm the earth will not make it unsustainable to us, humans live in the tropics & in canada. more tropics is not a bad direction to go. we will kill ourselves at least 2 other ways before the earth gets too hot for us.

:2 cents:

No, only point you proved is how moronic your fact finding abilities are.

I think written language is about 5k years old. In those terms 5k more years is pretty good.

No, the opposite. If we have been writing during 5000 years in our 250 000 years existence; 5000 years is not that much. Our ancestors have been surviving hundreds of thousands years and millions of years if observed as Homos. If we fuck it up any time soon; it won't be very proud moment.

Yep, they lived through MUCH hotter climates and MUCH colder ones too.

Oh wait a minute...people TODAY live in very hot and very cold places too. :)

Yes, we do. That is why humans are not going to get extinct because of climate change. At least per se. Although that hasn't been the scenario to start with.

Based on your messages I assume that you have taken some nothing matters approach, common to some folks regarding these issues. Or usually it is that others don't matter; "There shall be flood after me.", that saying is much older than this whole climate change stuff.

I get it. I am just not really willing to do much. I don't deny it like others on here as I see the facts. I just do not want to give up my car etc.

Just goes to show that words on a message board don't always convey the true meaning...or else you are not wanting to hear what I am saying my thoughts on it are.

So here is what I see:

The Earth's climate is going to change no matter what. There is absolutely nothing that scientists can do about that. Nothing.
Also, it's not even a "bad" thing that it is changing. It's not going to kill us or destroy civilization. Unless a catastrophic NATURAL event happens, the human race is perfectly capable of living in much warmer and much cooler temps either way.

In the meantime...some very rich corporations are getting a lot richer with scaring the shit out of people by claiming that CO2 produced by man is causing the Earth to get warmer and that will kill us all.
So in order to "fight" that...they are going to create carbon trading and make billions of dollars.

In other words, as usual, it's all about money.
As I've said before...if it were a real threat, the govt. leaders around the world would respond to it (just like we did for WW2).
Instead they are more worried about the latest boogieman in the Middle East (which we are bombing and creating more pollution and "carbon footprints" with our military than all the cars in the world put together)

Hope that makes my own position more clear to you so you don't have to ponder my thoughts and insult me.
YOU are the one buying into it. And if you were old enough to be an adult in the 1970's you would be agreeing with the "settled science" that we were going into an Ice Age because of mankind.
And the 1970 govt. memo during the Richard Nixon administration that claimed that the entire Eastern seaboard was 100% going to be underwater before the year 2000.
Yep, that was the greatest scientists on Earth making those claims as well.

It's all about money and power. When shit gets real, you will know it. The country would mobilize (just like the threat during WW2) and the games will be over.

Do you see that happening? Or do you see our politicians riding in limousines and big private jets while they order our military to fly jet planes, ride in heavy tanks, sail on giant aircraft carriers, and bomb the hell out of other countries?

You should really consider that.

Anytime I see people saying "Do as I say, not as I do" ... I question it.

You only seem to be questioning the people who DO question govt.

You are the perfect mark.

Think about what I'm saying 20 years from now. Unless a meteor hits the Earth or a volcano erupts of such power that it creates a nuclear winter...NOTHING will change.
Except some people will get much, much richer from the fear mongering.