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OY 05-20-2015 02:29 AM

This must for sure have been posted before - But Mitch, take a peek at how it CAN be done.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01mTKDaKa6Q

Yes, I know it is in a country with a fraction of the population of USA, but think about it for a second, probably 95% of inmates in the US could and should be able to get a second chance. The other 5%, well, there are some that does not deserve ANY more chances.....

PS. To lazy right now to figure out the embed feature of YouTube - click the damn link.
:2 cents:

Jel 05-20-2015 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OY (Post 20478611)
This must for sure have been posted before - But Mitch, take a peek at how it CAN be done.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01mTKDaKa6Q

Yes, I know it is in a country with a fraction of the population of USA, but think about it for a second, probably 95% of inmates in the US could and should be able to get a second chance. The other 5%, well, there are some that does not deserve ANY more chances.....

PS. To lazy right now to figure out the embed feature of YouTube - click the damn link.
:2 cents:

wow. Mixed thoughts on that, but that's some pretty forward thinking - very interesting mate, thanks for posting it :thumbsup

sperbonzo 05-20-2015 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kane (Post 20476723)
There are several reasons.

1. One of the reasons it takes years is because the court is heavily backlogged. You might file an appeal and it could take months or even years before it gets in front of a judge.

2. Prosecution (and defense) will often purposely hide evidence that could hurt their case. It isn't that they break the law, they simply choose not to include it. When the defense hears about potential evidence that could help their client they appeal. The prosecution fights and it could be a while while we go back and forth and the court decides if they are going to allow that evidence in which could mean an new trial.

3. Mental health. There are certain laws in place that are meant as a safety buffer that hopefully make certain that we don't execute someone innocent or mentally handicapped. Even if the person who is found guilty pleads guilty and admits to the crime the system will go through these steps just to be certain. If the person fights the execution then we could go through these steps and others.

4. Defense lawyers are smart. If the defense has a few different ideas they will not present them at once. They put one up on appeal. If it fails then they put the next up on appeal and so on. This can carry the case on for a long time.

In the end all of these are allowed because we hope that we are taking steps to make certain we are not executing innocent people. Of course, all of this takes time and money.

The death penalty in general doesn't work. It doesn't deter people from committing those types of crimes and it does not good for society as a whole. All it does is cost tax payers money and clog up the court system.


Good answer...:thumbsup

When you also include the fact that there have been quite a few innocent people who have been executed... and thus that makes the state a murderer... It's time for the death penalty to go away.

I utterly believe in killing to protect myself and others from an imminent threat, but once someone is arrested, the state should have no business beating, torturing, or executing people. Just lock them up forever.... and then, in case you find out years later that they were actually innocent, at least they are still alive and they can be freed.





:2 cents:



.

sperbonzo 05-20-2015 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Obenberger (Post 20477403)
A few years ago, I was attending a continuing legal education seminar at Northwestern Law School here in Chicago - and we had a presentation by Governor Ryan about the death penalty. During his remarks, he announced that he would be commuting all of the death sentences in Illinois later in the day. He explained himself. He said that by training and early experience, he was a pharmacist and that he tended to use a pharmacist's perspective in broader application. He noted that medicines that are not safe or effective need to be pulled from the shelves - and he said that, based on the many cases he'd seen as Governor of Illinois, that the system of capital punishment simply was not reliable. It was broken and ineffective. He pointed to seven instances of innocent men who had been scheduled for execution before their innocence was finally proven. In one of those cases, involving Rolando Cruiz, he'd been convicted three times before three separate juries of the sexual assault and murder of a little girl home sick from school. The case was sent back for a retrial by appellate courts twice because it felt that he'd been denied a fair trial. That's thirty-six men and women, each sworn upon their oaths not to convict anyone unless they were convinced beyond a reasonable guilt. They not only had to believe he was guilty, but they swore to convict only if there was no doubt about it. They were all wrong. Not only was there doubt, in fact he was not the perpetrator at all. Rolando Cruiz was never there, had never met the girl, and was guilty of nothing. The other six cases had facts just as compelling. Since Illinois finally got around to abolishing capital punishment by statute a few years ago, a whole raft of wrongful convictions have emerged, some after men have spent as much as thirty years in prison for rapes they never committed and for murders when they were never at the crime scene. Some of their convictions came from torture used in extracting false confessions. Other times, law enforcement just hid evidence inconsistent with their theories of guilt. There was substantial gamesmanship by the prosecutors in Lake County and a series of convictions were recently reversed. It is an ugly, human, imperfect system by which we try defendants, and it is prone to make serious mistakes, as it reliably does, like every other invention of men. Yes, as suggested above, sometimes the attorney is incompetent, though this is probably not as frequent as defendants claim. No, attorneys cannot hide evidence and then release it later for an appeal; appeals courts do not ordinarily hear any evidence at all. In fact, hiding evidence is the kind of thing that deserves disbarment and actually gets that punishment.

Why are there a succession of appeals and post-conviction procedures? In some cases, they guy on death row didn't get a fair trial and the appeals courts have had to repeatedly send the case back so he gets his due - only to have the trial courts screw up again, as they did with Rolando Cruiz. Sometimes it's because his prior lawyers were not competent. Sometimes, there is newly discovered evidence - this is never a sure thing, because, believe it or not, that does not always entitle someone to a new trial. There are new developments in science - read DNA tests - that were unavailable at the time of trial and which can emerge to prove actual innocence Sometimes, the higher judges change the law and fairness requires that before someone is executed, he have the benefit of the changed law. Sometimes, it takes decades for a witness to come forward who was actually present and sometimes they are deathbed confessions by the actual criminal. Sometimes, it takes decades for witnesses to come forward and tell the story of how they were forced or intimidated into their testimony for the prosecution. Sometimes the courts give rulings that resemble the issues in a particular death penalty case and it becomes important to litigate about whether it makes a difference germaine to the conviction of another. No one accepts any of these things without confirmatory evidence. Defending these death row people is a thankless, painful, and quite difficult job.

Please remember -

1. If accused persons have rights, it is not because they are accused criminals. It is because they are Americans. Though an accused person loses his freedom when he is locked up and denied bail, and likely loses his job and family, and never gets those things back in most cases if the cops were wrong, one thing he doesn't give up are the rights that are assured to all Americans. The rights of defendants are simply the rights of all of us, and it is hard to know whether any of us will require them at some point or another. If you weaken the rights of any accused person, you weaken them for yourself and for the people close to you. When rights are taken away, they rarely come back.

2. There is no constitutional right to "closure". That is the buzzword that the media and people close to a victim choose to use when they are out for the blood and scalp of a defendant. Look, when someone close to you is killed or dies, there never is any closure. You will always miss that person and sometimes forget that they are even dead for a moment. That does not change because someone is executed. And no one has a right to "closure" so important that it is worth the life of another.

3. One would think that in a country dominated by a religious belief founded by a wrongly-convicted and wrongly executed Jesus Christ that there just might be some sensitivity to the subject. But one would be largely wrong.

4. The State does not give us life and it's hard for me to understand any integrity in a belief that it should have the power to take life from anyone. There are those of us who believe that our lives do not even belong to us, ourselves.

5. For a short time in my life amounting to a year, I prosecuted men and women in the name of the United States of America, got convictions and got heavy sentences. Not one of the defendants I prosecuted at trial was acquitted. To one with the right disposition, it is an extremely humbling experience. One quickly learns the frailties of human memory and testimony and just as rapidly absorbs the full impact of one's role in utterly destroying the life of another human being. I tried only men and women who I thought were truly criminals and justice was done. But the truth is that it brought no joy to destroy lives, even when that was the just result. No human institution is perfect. I believe that, if for no other reason than the imperfection of our system, our government has no legitimate right to decide when a life is to be taken. Life is sacred and belongs to the Creator. We do not make it more sacred by vindicating crime with death. In fact, we debase life and grow the power of the state.

6. No one will ever be able to count the number of persons who have been executed in this country on the basis of erroneous convictions. Multiple levels of appeal and review may decrease the number, but it can never eliminate the execution of innocent Americans.

Another great post from Joe, as usual.







.

arock10 05-20-2015 06:35 AM

Prison is supposed to be about rehabilitation, though obviously that went out the window years ago (if ever here). Executing someone obviously leaves no option for rehabilitation

pornguy 05-20-2015 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Obenberger (Post 20477403)
A few years ago, I was attending a continuing legal education seminar at Northwestern Law School here in Chicago - and we had a presentation by Governor Ryan about the death penalty. During his remarks, he announced that he would be commuting all of the death sentences in Illinois later in the day. He explained himself. He said that by training and early experience, he was a pharmacist and that he tended to use a pharmacist's perspective in broader application. He noted that medicines that are not safe or effective need to be pulled from the shelves - and he said that, based on the many cases he'd seen as Governor of Illinois, that the system of capital punishment simply was not reliable. It was broken and ineffective. He pointed to seven instances of innocent men who had been scheduled for execution before their innocence was finally proven. In one of those cases, involving Rolando Cruiz, he'd been convicted three times before three separate juries of the sexual assault and murder of a little girl home sick from school. The case was sent back for a retrial by appellate courts twice because it felt that he'd been denied a fair trial. That's thirty-six men and women, each sworn upon their oaths not to convict anyone unless they were convinced beyond a reasonable guilt. They not only had to believe he was guilty, but they swore to convict only if there was no doubt about it. They were all wrong. Not only was there doubt, in fact he was not the perpetrator at all. Rolando Cruiz was never there, had never met the girl, and was guilty of nothing. The other six cases had facts just as compelling. Since Illinois finally got around to abolishing capital punishment by statute a few years ago, a whole raft of wrongful convictions have emerged, some after men have spent as much as thirty years in prison for rapes they never committed and for murders when they were never at the crime scene. Some of their convictions came from torture used in extracting false confessions. Other times, law enforcement just hid evidence inconsistent with their theories of guilt. There was substantial gamesmanship by the prosecutors in Lake County and a series of convictions were recently reversed. It is an ugly, human, imperfect system by which we try defendants, and it is prone to make serious mistakes, as it reliably does, like every other invention of men. Yes, as suggested above, sometimes the attorney is incompetent, though this is probably not as frequent as defendants claim. No, attorneys cannot hide evidence and then release it later for an appeal; appeals courts do not ordinarily hear any evidence at all. In fact, hiding evidence is the kind of thing that deserves disbarment and actually gets that punishment.

Why are there a succession of appeals and post-conviction procedures? In some cases, they guy on death row didn't get a fair trial and the appeals courts have had to repeatedly send the case back so he gets his due - only to have the trial courts screw up again, as they did with Rolando Cruiz. Sometimes it's because his prior lawyers were not competent. Sometimes, there is newly discovered evidence - this is never a sure thing, because, believe it or not, that does not always entitle someone to a new trial. There are new developments in science - read DNA tests - that were unavailable at the time of trial and which can emerge to prove actual innocence Sometimes, the higher judges change the law and fairness requires that before someone is executed, he have the benefit of the changed law. Sometimes, it takes decades for a witness to come forward who was actually present and sometimes they are deathbed confessions by the actual criminal. Sometimes, it takes decades for witnesses to come forward and tell the story of how they were forced or intimidated into their testimony for the prosecution. Sometimes the courts give rulings that resemble the issues in a particular death penalty case and it becomes important to litigate about whether it makes a difference germaine to the conviction of another. No one accepts any of these things without confirmatory evidence. Defending these death row people is a thankless, painful, and quite difficult job.

Please remember -

1. If accused persons have rights, it is not because they are accused criminals. It is because they are Americans. Though an accused person loses his freedom when he is locked up and denied bail, and likely loses his job and family, and never gets those things back in most cases if the cops were wrong, one thing he doesn't give up are the rights that are assured to all Americans. The rights of defendants are simply the rights of all of us, and it is hard to know whether any of us will require them at some point or another. If you weaken the rights of any accused person, you weaken them for yourself and for the people close to you. When rights are taken away, they rarely come back.

2. There is no constitutional right to "closure". That is the buzzword that the media and people close to a victim choose to use when they are out for the blood and scalp of a defendant. Look, when someone close to you is killed or dies, there never is any closure. You will always miss that person and sometimes forget that they are even dead for a moment. That does not change because someone is executed. And no one has a right to "closure" so important that it is worth the life of another.

3. One would think that in a country dominated by a religious belief founded by a wrongly-convicted and wrongly executed Jesus Christ that there just might be some sensitivity to the subject. But one would be largely wrong.

4. The State does not give us life and it's hard for me to understand any integrity in a belief that it should have the power to take life from anyone. There are those of us who believe that our lives do not even belong to us, ourselves.

5. For a short time in my life amounting to a year, I prosecuted men and women in the name of the United States of America, got convictions and got heavy sentences. Not one of the defendants I prosecuted at trial was acquitted. To one with the right disposition, it is an extremely humbling experience. One quickly learns the frailties of human memory and testimony and just as rapidly absorbs the full impact of one's role in utterly destroying the life of another human being. I tried only men and women who I thought were truly criminals and justice was done. But the truth is that it brought no joy to destroy lives, even when that was the just result. No human institution is perfect. I believe that, if for no other reason than the imperfection of our system, our government has no legitimate right to decide when a life is to be taken. Life is sacred and belongs to the Creator. We do not make it more sacred by vindicating crime with death. In fact, we debase life and grow the power of the state.

6. No one will ever be able to count the number of persons who have been executed in this country on the basis of erroneous convictions. Multiple levels of appeal and review may decrease the number, but it can never eliminate the execution of innocent Americans.

Not just the executions that have ruined lives. Just some of the convictions.

Tom_PM 05-20-2015 09:50 AM

Death is a release from suffering. Dumb people support the death penalty.

:2 cents:

Barry-xlovecam 05-20-2015 05:08 PM

OK, no death penalty -- sentence him under the Code of Hammurabi.

Quote:

Martin’s sister, Jane, 7, on Wednesday underwent her 11th surgery. “While she has more trips to the O.R. ahead of her, last night’s operation marked an important milestone, as doctors were finally able to close the wound created when the bomb took her left leg below the knee,” the family said. “Part of the procedure involved preparing Jane’s injured leg to eventually be fitted for a prosthesis.”

Family of boy killed in Marathon blast issues update; ?guarded optimism? seen over 7-year-old sister - Metro Desk - Boston.com
He was responsible for quite a few deaths and quite a few limbs lost ... Would you really want him released as rehabilitated from prison in 30 years back into the society he cared nothing for committing an act of unspeakable premeditated terrorism?

kane 05-20-2015 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barry-xlovecam (Post 20479200)
OK, no death penalty -- sentence him under the Code of Hammurabi.



He was responsible for quite a few deaths and quite a few limbs lost ... Would you really want him released as rehabilitated from prison in 30 years back into the society he cared nothing for committing an act of unspeakable premeditated terrorism?

I don't think anyone is suggesting he should some day be available for parole. He should get life without the possibility of parole.

CDSmith 05-20-2015 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom_PM (Post 20478911)
Death is a release from suffering. Dumb people support the death penalty.

:2 cents:

Some would say death is also the only 100% absolute guarantee that that person will never kill again. :2 cents:

And in my experience the tactic of hurling preemptive insults at those who disagree with you has won exactly 0 debates, I don't see it being any more effective here.

OY 05-21-2015 04:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sperbonzo (Post 20478733)
Good answer...:thumbsup

When you also include the fact that there have been quite a few innocent people who have been executed... and thus that makes the state a murderer... It's time for the death penalty to go away.

I utterly believe in killing to protect myself and others from an imminent threat, but once someone is arrested, the state should have no business beating, torturing, or executing people. Just lock them up forever.... and then, in case you find out years later that they were actually innocent, at least they are still alive and they can be freed.





:2 cents:



.

Michael!!!! I love the more liberal view from you - xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxo!

Miss you btw!

OY--

arock10 05-21-2015 05:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barry-xlovecam (Post 20479200)
OK, no death penalty -- sentence him under the Code of Hammurabi.



He was responsible for quite a few deaths and quite a few limbs lost ... Would you really want him released as rehabilitated from prison in 30 years back into the society he cared nothing for committing an act of unspeakable premeditated terrorism?

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/norway-shooter-anders-breivik-smiles-21-year-prison/story?id=17072142

OY 05-21-2015 06:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arock10 (Post 20479451)
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/norway-shooter-anders-breivik-smiles-21-year-prison/story?id=17072142

What this story does not say is that he will be kept in protective custody for the rest of his life, with a 5 year or so at the time judgement/time has been served. He will never get out among the public. :2 cents:


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