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crockett 05-23-2015 12:37 PM
Honestly Dyna.. We have just had two extreemly important events take place which are pro Demoracy and pro freedom..

The Patriot Act appears to be shut down by Congress and Obama signed an executive order which a stops much of the excess military hardware going to police departments.. Both actions should be celebrated as good for our rights and civil liberties.

dyna mo 05-23-2015 12:42 PM
what do you mean "honestly dyna"? and spell my name right for once. i show you the same courtesy many many times.

i'm trying to have a discussion and you keep making comments like that.

it's like you've never actually persuaded anyone before/had a discussion.


anyway, it's more fun to not take you seriously.

gofuckyourself/

crockett 05-23-2015 01:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dyna mo (Post 20481212)
what do you mean "honestly dyna"? and spell my name right for once. i show you the same courtesy many many times.

i'm trying to have a discussion and you keep making comments like that.

it's like you've never actually persuaded anyone before/had a discussion.


anyway, it's more fun to not take you seriously.

gofuckyourself/
I did spell your name correctly.. I just didn't add the mo..

I was saying honestly.. Because I find it hard to believe that anyone could see this as a bad thing.. We are getting rights and freedoms back from the govt.. It's not very often that govt's are forced to give up power.

The patriot act didn't make us any safer.. The FBI and NSA have not once stopped a terrorist plot which they were not playing bait the tango.. This spying did not stop anything.

JJ Gold 05-23-2015 01:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by crockett (Post 20481229)
The patriot act didn't make us any safer.. The FBI and NSA have not once stopped a terrorist plot which they were not playing bait the tango.. This spying did not stop anything.
:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

Now you are just being silly. :1orglaugh

crockett 05-23-2015 05:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ Gold (Post 20481244)
:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

Now you are just being silly. :1orglaugh
Name one terrorist plot they managed to stop with information gained by domestic spying. The only people they have ever stopped are people they bait into buying shit from them then arrest them. ie it's about the same as placing a bait car and much like a bait car almost non of them would have likely carried out an attack if not for the FBI giving them the shit to try to do so..

pimpmaster9000 05-24-2015 02:24 AM
http://vanguard.wdfiles.com/local--f...2/klingon2.jpg

nico-t 05-24-2015 07:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by crockett (Post 20479576)
He didn't fucking start it but then again your a guy that has to have a conspiracy in everything. The war started in 2011 as a result of the Arab Spring which also over through several other govts..

The rebels begged US for weapons for 2 years before we started helping them, which was largely due to ISIL making so much head way. If it wasn't for ISIL, we likely wouldn't be involved. Getting involved in Syria and putting troops back into Iraq is the last thing Obama wanted to do..

He has tried his whole presidency to wash his hands of the Bush fuck ups in Iraq. In fact Republicans in Congress were having hissy fits because Obama wouldn't start handing out guns like candy to the Syrian rebels..
- there is no difference between a D or an R.
- read Confessions of an Economic Hit Man.

I doubt you will have the same views as you have now.

Barry-xlovecam 05-24-2015 07:20 AM
Well, the renewal bill died in the Senate and the NSA is shutting down the program.



However;

Quote:
The data include the number dialed, duration, date and time for most telephone calls made by Americans. The information is then searched for connections to the phone numbers of known or suspected terrorists. About 300 such searches were made in 2014.
After Senate vote, NSA prepares to shut down phone tracking program - LA Times

There were no conversations tapped/recorded.
There is no implied right of 1st Amendment Right of Association for criminal or terrorist purposes. Lawful purposes -- yes.

If the LA Times citation of: "About 300 such searches were made in 2014" is correct -- then you are just getting your panties in a bunch over this portion of the PATRIOT Act.

Quote:
On 16 October the cabinet’s reaction was discussed at a General Consultation with the minister of the Interior and Kingdom Relations. The central topic at this meeting was whether a reaction to the reports on espionage by the United States should be given at EU level, or whether the Netherlands should do so in a bilateral context. Joining the German initiative to arrange an anti-espionage agreement was mentioned as an option for a reaction from the Netherlands. The minister promised that he would explore a bilateral solution after receiving the results of the fact-finding process undertaken by the EU-US expert group established on the initiative of the European Commission. The General Consultation also devoted attention to the meaning of the term metadata analysis.

The minister explained that metadata analysis essentially means that the telephone numbers of known terrorists are compared with the bulk of metadata to see what information this delivers. It may happen that a person who has not yet attracted the service’s attention turns up in the same circle as the known terrorists.

The minister further explained that in the Netherlands this is only permitted with respect to non-cablebound communication, which virtually always concerns foreign contacts.

He added that the Dessens Committee was considering the question to what extent this technology-dependent approach should be maintained.
cited from: http://www.ctivd.nl/?download=Report...ons%20data.pdf
Review report on the processing of telecommunications data by GISS and DISS
Odds are: There has been no compromise of your privacy.


Mobile phone calls and VOIP use SIP encryption and the message packets take the route of least resistance. Consequently, the routing methods cannot be predictable -- any supposed possible interception might only be partial.

The real intrusion into privacy is not covered by this bill.

The internet data (and probably this entire thread) is being scrapped, legally, and databased possibly as it is a public conversation.
But what of instant messaging text, IM video and audio?
The above communication has no expectation of privacy legally under US law.

Quote:
The Committee holds the opinion that the reasons given for the acquisition of a large number of web forums were deficient. With regard to five agent operations in which web forums were acquired the Committee holds the opinion that the reasons stated for deploying these agents were so inadequate that permission was given unlawfully in all of these cases. The Committee is convinced, though, that in most cases acquiring the web forum was necessary and fell within the tasks of the service. However, in four cases (not the same as the aforementioned ones) the Committee considers the acquisition of certain web forums not proportional and holds that for this reason the acquisitions were made unlawfully. The web forums in question were rather large and the infringement of the privacy of the web forum users who were not targets of the ongoing investigations was out of proportion to the results to be expected. Data collected by GISS on behalf of its security or intelligence task by means of exercising special powers, may also be used by GISS for other tasks, such as security screenings.

The Committee holds the opinion that this applies only to evaluated data: data which following (metadata) analysis has actually been found to be relevant to an operational investigation. It considers making unevaluated (raw) data from web forums accessible for security screening purposes to be unlawful. The law does not provide an adequate basis for doing this.

As the Committee already observed in an earlier review report, the law does not set a maximum storage period for unevaluated (raw) data. The Committee recommends that GISS itself set maximum storage periods, in anticipation of a possible amendment of the law. As part of the present investigation the Committee examined whether the acquired web forums were kept in storage on good grounds. The Committee holds the opinion that it was lawful for GISS to store those of the web forums that had been lawfully acquired.

Because communication using social media is virtually unhindered by national borders, the investigative activities of GISS involving social media often affect the interests and legal order of other countries. On the one hand the targets of the service usually operate internationally. On the other hand operating in an online context, for example by an agent of GISS, often entails the collection of data which (also) has relevance to other countries. The mutual interest in cooperation can hardly be overestimated. Web forums sometimes comprise very large amounts of data that is not only important for the Netherlands. The Committee emphasizes the importance of sound agreements with foreign services in order to reduce the risk of relevant data being overlooked.

Review report on investigative activities of GISS on social media NL
The Dutch Government is more forthcoming in inquiry of these matters ... Somehow they can function without a law like the PATRIOT Act ...

Hey look at the monkey! The phone meta-data is inconsequential. Congress is full of shit (as usual).

Are "real" terrorists really that stupid to communicate in a venue subject to this scrape? Or, are we just stopping the idiot wannabes?

crockett 05-24-2015 07:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nico-t (Post 20481529)
- there is no difference between a D or an R.
- read Confessions of an Economic Hit Man.

I doubt you will have the same views as you have now.
There are no differences when it comes to lobbyists getting what they want and both parties heavily favor defense contractors. Both parties also favor big out of control spending.

There is however differences on where they want their out of controlled spending going and various civil issues. With Democrats they usually want to spend heavily on social services, while Republicans want to privatize everything and hand truck loads of money over to big business.

It's both welfare, just different people getting it, but it has very different affects on people's lives..

crockett 05-24-2015 07:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry-xlovecam (Post 20481531)
Well, the renewal bill died in the Senate and the NSA is shutting down the program.



However;






There were no conversations tapped/recorded.
There is no implied right of 1st Amendment Right of Association for criminal or terrorist purposes. Lawful purposes -- yes.

If the LA Times citation of: "About 300 such searches were made in 2014" is correct -- then you are just getting your panties in a bunch over this portion of the PATRIOT Act.



Odds are: There has been no compromise of your privacy.


Mobile phone calls and VOIP use SIP encryption and the message packets take the route of least resistance. Consequently, the routing methods cannot be predictable -- any supposed possible interception might only be partial.

The real intrusion into privacy is not covered by this bill.

The internet data (and probably this entire thread) is being scrapped, legally, and databased possibly as it is a public conversation.
But what of instant messaging text, IM video and audio?
The above communication has no expectation of privacy legally under US law.



The Dutch Government is more forthcoming in inquiry of these matters ... Somehow they can function without a law like the PATRIOT Act ...

Hey look at the monkey! The phone meta-data is inconsequential. Congress is full of shit (as usual).

Are "real" terrorists really that stupid to communicate in a venue subject to this scrape? Or, are we just stopping the idiot wannabes?
They are just stopping the idiot wannbes.. Hence the reason the only people they have ever arrested ahead of a terrorist attack were people whom took their bait.

They see some idiots on message boards saying they want to jihad. Then they approach these idiots and convince them to attack a US target.. (ie the FBI usually develop the entire plot and is supplying the fictitious bombs weapons ect)

They then set up the deal to hand over these bombs/weapons and they bust the guy when he shows up claiming intent. This is shit they can do with out destroying everyone else's right to privacy..

The mass collection of data is just lazy police work.. Also the 300 look ups is BS.. That's 300 warrants.. They were not getting warrants for the mass data scraping and yes they were very much looking at that data. They were using blanket warrants to cover every one whom use a specific carrier.. ie so every single customer at Verizon wireless was 1 warrant.. not 1 warrant for 1 specific person.

pimpmaster9000 05-24-2015 07:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nico-t (Post 20481529)
- there is no difference between a D or an R.
- read Confessions of an Economic Hit Man.

I doubt you will have the same views as you have now.
the US government is to the global economy what tubes are to porn...only it does not only do what tubes did, it takes the model much much further by robbing countries of their entire future and keeping them in complete debt slavery...

the EU are basically the US governments vassal states...with the US drone army 10-20 years away, I am hoping russia and china invest the fuck in to WMD of all sorts...not that the russians and chineese will treat smaller countries better, it would just be so refreshing to see the USA out of europe....

Barry-xlovecam 05-24-2015 07:52 AM
The phone meta data is in plain text in the headings of the public IP packets -- it has no right of privacy by law -- get it?

Barry-xlovecam 05-24-2015 08:49 AM
@crockett -- why not worry about a real invasion of your privacy?
https://www.eff.org/issues/calea
CALEA law (1994) The FBI or NSA could be scraping up all communications (they both have domestic surveillance mandates)
With regard to a telephone numbers certain; they are using john doe warrants with various carriers (traditional phone carriers, VOIP, SKYPE, others) *. at carrier.

The best thing was to do nothing -- let the bill expire -- and that has occurred.

What will probably happen next is that the Senate will modify the wording and make in the past law withstand the constitutional scrutiny of the courts. The House and Senate conference committee will edit the 2 bills that passed into a bill that will be approved by both houses, Obama will sign it, and in the end: it will have the same parts you (and I in most cases) object to.

So, if you want real privacy use your own encryption keys that only you and the other parties privileged to the message have the keys to (certificates to).


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