oh tell me who else you know :thumbsup

^ what do you gather by that comment shap? combative or genuine? only logical response when somebody talks about who they know is to ask who else right?

You are one angry little fellow aren't you? Jesus are you pissed you missed the money train? Clearly you feel you know better than others and the reality is you haven't made near what those others have made. I take it you are jealous and upset by that.

Honestly last night i started that discussion with you with the idea of let's see if we can come up with a plan to help you execute and smash it. Today I'm left thinking Fuck this guy! Your negativity isn't worth dealing with. Good luck.

I imagine I fit the bill of a guy who didn't know what he was doing and didn't deserve to get rich from it. Right?

:1orglaugh

So to summarize, from thinking a couple of your responses sounded condescending, a thumbs up after a disagreement is typically done in a condescending manner. (also happen to be where you stopped discussing the orignal topic with me) You take that as im jealous of everything you've achieved? Could it simply be, it seemed by your post that i was arrogant from the start and did not want to post further with me?

Where do you see anger? Ive tried to steer the direction back to the topic at hand countless times but you avoided it. All I have stated was that I think your responses weren't genuine and writeoffish, I truly dont care and have tried to get back to the topic at hand but its clear from page 1, that you did not want to talk business anymore.

lol im not sure where you get that from, you created a great product for its time (best in its market), have i said any company that has achieved success didn't warrant it? honestly show me a post where you think im implying that or something that suggests i'd have that idea. but i suggest you'll ignore it like all the questions i ask you

met-art, brazzers, 21sextury, digitaldesire, all those companies are great. or they wouldn't have achieved success where they did. i actually stood up for why they aren't optimizing things.

I took some time today to read your posts (not only in this thread) and it became very clear what type of person you are. If you spent the time and effort you waste on gfy on building your empire you'd be closer to where you think you deserve to be. It's a shame because I think you may actually have some talent but instead you waste your energy here trying to talk like an authority on the biz.

In general I think everyone deserves to be treated with respect until they prove otherwise. You on the other hand feel it necessary to speak down to and about people and you seem to think you are an industry authority. You clearly have a small dick small bank account complex. I can see someone having made big bucks talking like an authority. But in your position to talk down about and to people is just comical. Focus on your own shortcomings instead of those of other people. Treat people with a little more respect. Try to be a little more positive and your business and your life will benefit.

Now you're just showing off. That's old school right there. LOL

Summed up perfectly. Once again Far-L you have crystallized my thoughts. :thumbsup:thumbsup

? On your mobile phone does it show registration date and post count? I rarely post on GFY. Ive only posted this much maybe one other time since 2006.

I speak bluntly about my opinion, all my posts are my opinion, and after all my posts, i welcome the opposing view. I do not need to post IMO after every post to indicate its my opinion. In almost all my posts, i specifically asked for evidence to support the opposing view did i not? I actually look forward to seeing the other side and to be shown that im wrong, nobody wants to have incorrect information or an opinion that is completely off.

I suggest people learn how to take peoples opinions with a grain of salt and take the information and anything else you seek from it and discard the rest, the only reason to be offended by an opinion is if you are insecure about yourself or your business. If they are not personally attacking you, try to understand their opinion and if you disagree, leave it at that.

If you think somebody is wrong, why must somebody politely walk on eggshells? I believe this is an adult forum and you can come out and say, i think you are wrong and this is why i believe so

Are you not used to people saying this? I believe thats more likely

And I have not personally attacked one person on this forum.

Also when you suggest a person's opinion is incorrect, it doesn't imply you think you are superior to them and it doesn't mean you are talking down to them. It means you think that opinion is incorrect. Every single person knows something you don't know. In these instances where I pick and choose where i post, i feel strongly about my opinion in this one case and am willing to give data to back up my opinion and accept evidence that disproves it

I have a question for you Shap.

A lot of the mainstream programs that were big (and still are) from until 2010 have launched their own gay programs in the last five years or so. Brazzers, bangbros, nastyd, biggy, all launched brand new gay programs/sites in the past few years.

If you didnt sell to manwin in 2011 did you see yourself launching a gay paysite or program back then? If not, would you launch it in todays market? The reason I ask is because you had the biggest gay tube site when you sold...

Thanks.

lol, Old school? I think you mean Temple of the Ancients... :thumbsup

Hopefully crystallized like the hit of LSD-25 Doc Ellis pitched the no-hitter on... :winkwink:

Haha! YES! I actually have one of those old Pirate hats, the yellow ones with the black rings around them. :D

This is a question all production, marketing and sales people face. Why by this, when that's available?

When it comes to online porn the question is why buy this girl, when there are 100s of others. This is 1% of the selection.

http://pattayaplaza.com/wp-content/u...-fishbowl1.jpg

And then when you find that magic ingredient that separated one for the 100s of others. The 100s of others copy it. If it's not to unique.

That's the problem with a lot of online businesses, so for most it ends up with arriving on the right page at the right time and the surfer feeling good about the right image.

Or.

Throwing shit at the wall. :1orglaugh

I am surprised that our surfers side hasn't found more hidden gems then this.

Being as I get to see quite a few sites, I have often been frustrated that a certain site with fantastic content seems to do very poorly with our readers. For one reason or another.

A few great sites right off the top of my head are:

Brand New Amateurs | You may know this girl!
Simonscans (at least until several problems made it difficult for Simon to continue at usual pace)
CandyGirl Video Homepage (kind of like Inthecrack when they started out)
Gloryhole Swallow
Amateur Women Videos | Natural breasts | Amateur Naked Women Pictures | Amateur Nude women | Amateur Boobs: Homepage - Justnips.com (Great models and content - would tweak it a bit and make it more explicit though)
http://nip-activity.com/
http://www.brokeamateurs.com/

I don't know of any great content sites that aren't successful, I know how much it costs to shoot high quality content, so the question for myself, the information I need is how much those sites are netting after expenses.

Good list. You have some pretty decent sites on your review list as well.:thumbsup

To be honest I don't know who's had what levels of success the past 4 years. I've been out and really not in the loop on what's worked and what hasn't. So to comment on anything in the past 4 years would be silly for me.

It's a lot of hard work to reach any level of success. My point as I mentioned earlier is that for many of the most talented content producers their skill is in producing amazing content. Looking back on the history of pay sites those that did best were usually successful because of very aggressive marketing and not so much on their content. Twistys never had the best content but we damn sure were one of the market leaders in our niche. So my point to the thread was which businesses out there producing good content but aren't quite at the level they should be. Digital Desire has been mentioned a few times. It's a good example because from affiliate perspective it's the type of content affiliates would like to push hard but it just doesn't yield results. So I believe those that reach levels of success usually reach it because of smart and dedicated marketing push. Not just on content. I'm looking to find companies that don't have time for marketing and rely on the strength of their content to market for them.

I believe you said there is no great content in the industry besides blacked.com. I think that is a bold statement. Ruseful may not be "great" content to you but in terms of satisfying what customers want it is a direct hit.

I probably didn't clearly express what I was looking for in the first post. But it wasn't to discuss sites that smash it, Bang Bros, RK, Braz etc. It was to discuss the lesser pushed but strong content. Those are the guys that imo need help not only to grow but to survive moving forward. So I'm looking for a list of companies like that.

This is exactly what I am referring to. Sites that do a good job and delivering the content their niche is looking for but are grossly under promoted.

You might have one person with an advertising budget of 100k+ per month. Think about a handful of large campaigns out of that promoting something that doesn't convert and you can start to get an idea of how much is going down the toilet.

I have a hard time seeing how any of those would convert these days. They're alright but to get a surfer to take out his wallet the content has to be exceptional or micro niche oriented, that is ALSO not widely available on tubes.

SimonScans is one site I always thought should be much bigger for sure. Love the content.

Great post!

You got that right. They seem to go mostly unnoticed by the industry. But they are producing some of the best porn out there right now (and have been for the last few years).

I just looked at all the sites listed in the previous post, read Mutt's comments about the costs of producing good amateur content, and I note the speculations about what makes Ruseful's content so successful.

Here are my thoughts:

Most of that content is actually quite generic and not really that compelling. Unless the surfer connects specifically with a particular model, then they can find similar content on plenty of sites, notably tube sites - for free.

Good authentic amateur content is not about high production costs. I would put that type of stuff that Mutt gets with his photographer, which I personally love the quality - excellent models and great photography, in another class, but I would not call it amateur. Great amateur content is about the "x-factor" in the sincerity of the interaction. Period. You all don't know how many companies and programs I have watched go out of biz over the years trying to prove otherwise.

Ruseful studies trends. He does his homework. Tests. Finds what works. Then replicates effectively and consistently. He uses the tubes better than any program I know so saying "but it is all over the tubes" doesn't really apply when you set up the join funnels as smartly as he does.

good post.But in a nutshell what you have said , is the key is...Traffic. ;)

begin rambling thought...

He knows how to put those most eyes possible on it and maximise it. OCDly analyses ALL data. He is a master of traffic.

imho , it is the old adage.. Great product , gets 100k unique sells @ 1 in 100 , gets 1000 joins...Mediocre content...gets 500k unique sells at 1 in 250 gets 2000 joins....and additionally gets better known.You know which scenario I want.

Join ratios are great excuse to feel better about smaller wires.

And also..knowing your niche.

You may remember "heather" from the boards? Bit umm eccentric..rest her soul. When I had my real amateur wife site doing well , I pissed with her over her criticism regarding lighting make up photography quality etc. She could not understand that this site was supposed to be "real" amateur pics taken , say, at the end of a drunken date night with..the surfers did not want to see perfectly lit etc etc...that was a give away it was not "real" amateur porn.

I had the same problem with designers in 2000 putting women on our amateur pages with fake boobs...they did not get it..so know your niche.

And with the utmost respect, for years now when homegrown has cropped up in conversations I have always thought "that site should have been massive". Great great content imho..and good people.

/ramble

Nice read

Thanks! From someone with your experience and success no higher compliment could be paid. (Even with the sting of hearing and knowing we should be way bigger...:Oh crap)

We have had that fight for years, but the first major lesson I learned when we took over Homegrown was not to base decisions on what I personally liked, but what the customer feedback and response demanded.

True story... we had a bunch of submitted videos that we had no clue what to do with, or what to title it, and finally we said "fuck it" and put it out and called it like we saw it. The title was "Oversexed, over weight, and over 40" and what do you know? Turns out it was a top seller for us that year.

But... my brother always wanted the overly posed forced smile fake boob blonde trying to be the next Jenna on the covers (this goes all the way back to VHS era mind you) so I constantly had to battle for doing amateur as amateur and not trying to be just another ubiquitous pro-am.

To me, there is something much more rare and valuable about the "Saturday night and a 6 pack" mom and pop getting their freak on for one time only amateur than the new hot model that is going to shoot dozens of so-called amateur scenes for the next few months and show up on every site out there.

I couldn't agree more.

And it was no jab..all of us could have been a lot bigger. Hell.. I think back and realise the dumb choices I made lol.

We all left a lot of money on the table I bet :(

..ah well... as the wife says "yr big enough" ;) ;)

And always remember at the end of the day , we are all under achievers in the eyes of R-n. ;-))) I know..he has told me many times ;);)

Ryan Madison is shooting great stuff, he's middle aged now so the TeenFidelity stuff has that older man young gir..... um ... woman perversion that seems to be very popular, probably because a large % of porn buyers are 40 and over. He's a really good stunt cock, rails girls, weird positions.

Pierre Woodman still does the best casting videos.

MPL Studios is a good example. I'm sure they do ok but i don't see them on many sites. My gut tells me the upside for them is huge.

:thumbsup:thumbsup

I hadn't looked at the sites earlier but saw simonscans so i agreed. Looking at the list now Simon scans could do better. Maybe Candy Girls and nip activity too. As someone else mentioned these sites need much more than traffic. These are great examples of sites where throwing more traffic at them is NOT the answer. These sites need a time machine to bring them into 2015.

Sums up my thoughts exactly ....

Now, where to find good programs like that.

Easy as ""One for you, one for me, two for you, one-two for me" for R_n to say...

:winkwink:

The only ones I know besides Homegrown said goodbye to affiliates long, long ago. :2 cents:

what Porn Nerds needs, I think, and what other programs needs, is one mega site, where people can join that site and get access to all the sites at one site

there is one fetish network (don't remember which one) which has great content, and they have 4 different mega sites for each niche, but i think they would be better off in combining those 4 mega sites into multi-niche mega site, so more for everyone

Actually one of my biggest selling points to both surfers and affiliates is that when someone joins any site in my now 88 site network they get access to every website. With so many sites (and tons of Bonus content) the rebills are fantastic. It takes fucking time to go through all those sites and features. LOL I don't believe in lowering prices, I believe in adding value instead (more bang for the buck).

But my business model is WAY different than almost anyone's I have met. My philosophy regarding porn surfers/members is a bit different, too. I WISH I could shoot great content like Twistys, Ruseful or Homegrown. I WISH I had vibrant, weekly updated Tours and MAs.....but then I stop myself, think of the expense of shooting, updating, etc, crunch the numbers and discover (like Nickatilynx so wisely pointed out) that the ONLY number that counts for anything is the amount of money you put in your bank account. I am not convinced that endlessly shooting even great content, constantly updating and having tons of user interactivity leads to more revenue or rebills. In fact, I think it puts most companies in a hole that eventually consumes them. The pressure to keep 'feeding the beast" can be enormous.

The wonder of Homegrown (MUCH respect!) is how they have survived amidst all this change and are still shooting amazing content! I think Homegrown may be the exception that proves the rule. :)

Porn Nerd, Thanks for the compliment! Much respect to you and what you have done and I agree with your assessment of cost vs return on content.

However, need to point out, we don't shoot content at all. These days about 90% of our content is user submissions and we typically do not accept "studio" amateur content. We have a couple "producers" that turn in scenes if and when we need something specific for a dvd title or for cable/sat, but everything else is pretty much swinger home video type stuff, tripods or handheld, the real deal amateur.

These days I get hit up almost daily by "producers" saying they can shoot "amateur" scenes for us and I take one look at their samples and I think many here would say it is great content but I know it won't work for us at all. If there is a cameraman then most of our audience will call bullshit on it being amateur, unless it is obviously the hubby or whatever and gets in on the action too.

We do buy "filler content" that is pro-am but we have to be very clear with the members what it is or they get pissed.

:thumbsup Biggest problem I have trying to buy content. Amateur is very very different from homemade.

Truly, kudos - that is a great way to differentiate it.

It is a problem not just for buying but for selling too because most webmasters, dvd distributors, cable licensees, etc. think "amateur" means something that looks way too professional in our customer's eyes.

Definitely. I strictly considered the content that is actually available from within the members area. Their tours, design, etc was kept out of the equation.

In my opinion some of those sites are just as great as Backroom Casting Couch for example, but for various reasons (presentation maybe) are not enjoying the same attention.

Probably the people who make JAVHD's content should be credited. The site producers are not the content producers. The people behind the amazing Caribbeancompr, Heyzo and 48 other amazing Japanese sites are responsible. JAVBUCKS licenses the materials after they have played out for DTI's traffic which is mostly Japanese.

JAVHD could do much better if they used better translators and writers for their sites. What kills them is they go on the cheap in these areas so ratios have been very poor as of the past few years. If they restructured and began producing content they might do better as well. Not with Western producers but remain with Japanese producers who know the styles and the market.

Shap, would be great to hear your thoughts on onlytease.com - we do well, but I know with more targetted traffic we could do even better :)

Any thoughts?

Cheers Paul

Bring him onboard, that will make a dream team :thumbsup

Will check it out! We still have to get together in London :thumbsup

Onlytease has very good content but I honestly believe the name hurts the brand. Its a restrictive name and a huge part of flirting or teasing is not knowing if that's all that will happen. I'd be very interested to see a clone of that content on a domain like Flirt.xxx or another more open sounding brand name. To me OnlyTease sounds like 'that's all she does' and it weakens the fantasy.

Just my 2cents (offered in a very constructive way so please don't go psycho in your reply as I'm actually trying to be helpful).

Interesting post....

Interesting thought. You may be right.