"When you find someone who seems to be on the right track, offer to work for them....FOR FREE."

He wants you to work for him. For free.

I don't think so.

When I first entered the online industry it was owning a content company.

AL4A made me an offer to start a content company with him. He funded the start up...I did all the work. Nobody made a salary off of it for the first 6 months while I was busy shooting content week in and week out.

I worked for free.

And while I worked for "free", I was a 50% owner of a company, learned the online business from the top people in the world, began making 6 figures a year on the side as an affiliate, and ended up running one of the biggest traffic TGP sites in the world for the next 10 years and made over 14 million dollars between 1998 and 2006.

That is what can happen for a motivated person who knows what to do when opportunity comes calling.

Yes, having the skills to impress the right person and then doing whatever it takes (including working for free) can definitely change your life.

One of unknowing mentors speaks!! :)

Words of Gold here folks.

Robbie,

I'm not saying that any part of that aspect of what you said above is not valid.

I'm saying that the OP's line of " ... there are FAR more joins being made now that there have ever been ..." ... is bullshit.

That depends, overall I agree with it when taking dating and cam leads etc into consideration.

With dating and cams perhaps, I'm not sure. But for paysites there's no way.

Oh I agree on that. Paysite sales are on life support. You know...the actual porn industry part of it.

Dating and cam...which are a part of the adult industry, but not really porn...are still hanging in there.

Not sure if it's still making as many NEW sales as it once did. It's hard for me to believe that there could be anyone left on the face of the Earth who hasn't already been cookied in for AFF.

And the industry numbers on AFF looks like they are losing money every year.

Cams has been huge business. But it's been declining a little bit over the last couple of years. The girls aren't making quite as much money overall and I'm seeing my own sales to them starting to decline slightly as well.
Just like dating sites...it's oversaturated and I think there might be a dozen people in the world who aren't already signed up at a cam site. lol

I have thought since the beginning that unless we can somehow (magically) get back to selling PORN again we are going to continue to see decline instead of real growth (not just minimal growth brought about by people becoming old enough to have a credit card).

I never saw how giving away the product to sell traffic could be anything but a relatively short term way to make a ton of money.

If a business isn't growing, but just going sideways...it's never a good thing.
And now, every indication that I can see in every way shows that the industry is contracting.
That is a bad thing.

And yes, I do blame it on a business model based on giving away everything for free in order to sell traffic.

Don't know that there is anything that can be done about that. :(

See, I don't worry about the 'decline of the Industry'. I don't give a FUCK about any of that. I care about ONE thing only: MY money. So as long as MY sales continue to go up, and I make MORE, who gives a fuck how other paysites, cams or dating is doing? I cannot control 'the Industry' nor can I control other websites' success or failure. I worry about MY shit ONLY.

So if "the Industry" is making less, and former ballers are struggling/leaving, who cares? It's about ME (and YOU), not 'the Industry' (comprised of a zillion independent webmasters and a handful of major players). So what if, in 2003, you could make $1,000,000 and today in 2015 you can "only" make $300,000? Stop looking back and start looking at what works for YOU and your life NOW. That's my philosophy.

It's why I'm such a happy little fuck. :)

If your sales are growing then good for you!

The reason you might want to worry a bit is because you would be doing a LOT better in a healthy adult industry.

And any industry in any kind of a decline is going to eventually affect the sales of everyone involved. Even you.

But congrats on beating the odds so far. I'm in the same boat...working all the time to keep things from falling apart. But in my case it's a game of keeping it sideways. Any real growth is so small that it's inconsequential. :(

Dating right now is about where paysites were circa-2009. Go look at any Ashley Madison hack article and you will see people in the comments saying "LOL why would anyone pay when tinder is free? dumbasses!" The same thing started being said about paysites around 2008/2009 so there is probably only 2-3 years left until the bottom drops on most dating other than with a free model.

Cams is about all the industry has left but you're saying it is slumping as well for you and that isn't good. I think that is partially again the free model taking over.

Yeah you can still make money in a declining market but as you say in another reply it sucks because you would have been doing far better before.

Yes, ok. I'll agree with that. But a lot of the people here claiming things are better than ever are just lying. It's the same old happy "piss on me and tell me it's raining liquid gold" crap as been happening for years here. I've lost track of all the ones claiming things are "better than ever" for them (and how everyone else is just a whiner broke ass lazy fool etc) only for them to make a goodbye post that they are leaving the industry, selling out for $x,000, or whatever. A lot of these people are only talking themselves up. They aren't telling it as it really is.

For Ja$on he is a media buyer. He needs to keep close contacts with sponsors and tube owners. He's not going to talk shit about them because he has to work with them and he probably can't afford to be without their cooperation Instead he's going to say all sorts of nice things about the tubes and their wonderful traffic. It might get him some business or better deals. That's the way it works here.

Well, the only way I've stayed one step ahead is by constantly adding new websites to my now three Affiliate Programs (and a fourth to come soon). I don't have a single main site I am trying to grow. For me, once a site 'reaches its' level' I move on to a new site. In today's climate (2009 on, when I started) I don't know of any other way to achieve even mid-level success.

So you are correct (of course) about your views but my point is that I, personally, have little to zero control (or even influence) over 'the Industry' and its' decline. But I do worry about it. It's why I check GFY almost daily. LOL But this is so I personally can bob-and-weave and adapt if I can, not to fret about the Industry's overall future. :)


While I understand your perspective - anyone who had previous success may find it impossible to ever forget 'the good old days' - this is still looking backwards and using the psychological rule of comparison to make yourself feel bad. I'd rather look forward and compare my success NOW to how shitty my life was pre-Adult. :)

Example: I just introduced a new pricing option for all my sites that has brought in thousands in new revenue weekly. I am ECSTATIC about this! But - why didn't I introduce this option five years ago? By my calculations, I may have 'lost' close to $1 million in additional revenue over that time. The George Washington Bridge is close to me, maybe I will go jump off it now. My stupidity demands it!! LOL

See what I mean? Look forward and control what YOU can control and worry not. Learn as much as you can, especially from your own mistakes and failures, and keep going. It's how I get through the day. :D

(I'm the Tony Robbins of porn!! LOL)

My comments come from a Program Owner's perspective. If I were an Affiliate for paysites today I would jump off that bridge. This is why I chose the MUCH harder (and expensive) route of being a Program Owner back in 2008 instead of becoming a pure Affiliate. Everyone I knew back them thought I was nuts. Why take on the expense and learning curves of doing everything yourself? Why not just submit galleries for another site?

So it GREATLY depends on WHAT you do in Adult. I'm sure if you are a traffic broker or work for a billing company times are pretty good. LOL Never paint everyone in Adult with the same brush, it simply does not work. Even with me and Robbie. Paysites yes but two completely different approaches. :)

Sex as a whole is getting cheaper than it was 10 or 20 years ago. Everyone has internet access and a smartphone now. These things give you constant access tons of free porn, hookup apps like Tinder, dating sites, escort sites, and so on. People being more connected than ever means that it's easier than ever to find a way to get off whether it's alone or with someone else. Even social media has basically become young women creating their own soft porn and broadcasting it for free for attention.

It should be fairly obvious that most people aren't going to want to spend $20 a month for pre-recorded porn when there are so many alternatives available for fulfilling that instinct. People are always going to pay for sex in some fashion, but I just think the paysite/affiliate model has pretty much already been killed by these changes.

You'll notice I didn't say....."SEO sales are performing at the same ratios as 4 years ago"

I said, More sales are being made now than in 2002, and its 100% true. More surfers, sure, worse ratios on things like pay sites...no doubt. The fact remains, there are more sales to be made. People just need to find new methods. If SEO is your bag and isn't cutting the mustard any more, I feel ya, but it doesn't change the fact that more people are buying now than ever

We have played with everything over the years. but now, Mostly dating. Some cams. And occasional tests with ancillary products like Pills, diet etc.

Again, I didn't say PAYSITE joins...I said Joins :) Dating, Cams, Pills etc etc etc

buying what ? and where ? if they buy more viagra pills because they felt like they are "overcoming" their porn addiction:winkwink:, is it related to porn or rather mainstream/ pharma sales ?
aint easy to sell product that is virtually free...even cams r for free

Great Post Robbie. I love hearing stories like that!!!

Yes and no....

It IS better than ever for some. Not for others. But thats the way it is in every business at any given point in time.

And Im not a media buyer, lol. I have done media buying at certain points in time, but very little the last few years. To hard. Self serve platforms Like TJ have just cut the margins to thin (for my liking anyway) And just so you know, as someone who HAS spent well into the 6 figures a month media buying in the past, dealing with Tubes who's owners I was very close with....NOBODY gives a fuck about what nice things are said or this "bro" thing everyone bitches about. Thats just an excuse people give. One more reason THEY can't compete. Ive bid on 6 figure a month ad spots on sites owned by VERY good friends and lost because someone else's bid was 5% higher. Business is business.

Anyone who thinks someone is going to get an ad spot for $160,000 a month when someone else bid $200,000 just because the $160k bid is a "board bro" or tight with the sites owner is, way, way out of touch with reality, LOL

I don't know what to tell you. Its the truth :)

Dating joins alone have exploded and are still on the rise. There are SO many people in the space vs just 3-4 yrs ago. And its not just the big board names (AFF, DG etc) There are MANY small, invite only (small in terms of their number of affiliates and public presence) Dating programs out there that 95% of affiliates have never heard of. The set up shop and cater to small groups of whales (Mainly chatters and mailers) that are doing hundreds and in some cases 1000+ joins a day. Not saying this is good or bad, just mentioning its out there.

For years I have been seeing people say thing like, "There are more signups now than ever before." Does anyone have any actual data to back that up or is it just a guess?

I understand your thinking there and that you're trying to be optimistic.

But...I have a friend who owns a multi-million dollar app building company: One Solution Apps. And his company is now working hand in hand with Seattle Cloud using their platform.

I've been doing some work with them on the side making money.

At first I wouldn't do it. But they were after me pretty hard. And they finally got me by asking me a simple question: "Robbie, is the adult industry growing or shrinking?"

They already knew that answer. And as I'm sitting there with my friend that owns the company and a couple of other guys worth north of 100 million each...I had to answer truthfully..."No, it's not growing anymore".

And that's when I knew I needed to work with them.
And "no", I didn't go to work for them. But "yes", I'm doing some work with them because the money is flowing in that industry exactly the way it used to flow in the adult industry. :)

So no...I don't look at it as pining for the "good old days", I look at it as: A healthy industry pays well for talented people. I'm not making the money I should be in this industry. Yeah, I make a lot. But it's still not what it should be because the value of porn is now devalued.

Yeah, I'm like you in that I try to stay optimistic. Every day I get up and think: "Today I'm gonna kick ass"

But I also have to think about the future.
Unless things change in a huge way, the deck is stacked against us for the future (talking actual selling of porn). In terms of real growth and making money, it's just not there at the moment.

Obviously I don't know every sale made by every program, but I regularly deal with and see stats from a pretty fair number of programs, chat with them abut whats up, whats down, whats doing well, whats not (and YES, I see stats, so its not just smoke, lol)

As a whole, the circle of people I surround myself with (Im speaking about owners, not affiliates. Since that wouldn't be much of an indication) are doing more sales now than they have in years past. Again, the increase are coming in dating, cams etc.

Also, like I mentioned in another post, its not just the big 5 dating companies. LOTS of quiet, invite only programs have popped up that cater to small numbers of LARGE affiliates (mostly chat and mail) and they are doing pretty impressive numbers.

Good thread for the new and old

I dont post much and don't start many threads, but I like a good debate :) I saw some thread that spurred this one. Anyway...time to bow out. Things to do. I'll check back in a few days to see who else has told me Im full of shit!

It sounds corny, but when I post, I try to say SOMETHING with substance (although Im sure some would disagree, lol) It may not be the best time to start promoting pay sites, but dammit if there isn't a FUCK LOAD of sales out there (Social Media ALONE in the last few years has opened up a whole new world and ungodly amounts of joins if you know how to generate the traffic and whats to do with it) We here so much about the sky falling. I like to let new people know that its not falling on all of us!

bye

I would not put Adult Dating and Pills in the same category as Porn Paysites and Cams.

Pills and most of the Adult Dating are scam operations in my opinion. If a dating site has less than 5-10% females, it is one of them in my eyes. No wonder that AFF is on the decline after all these years, I doubt they have many happy returning customers.

And of course new Adult Dating programs can make a killing because naive disillusioned people will think that this time they found the jackpot, for real. Noone has told them that there aren't actually horny MILFs in your neighbourhood waiting to fuck you. Scam has always been profitable, and will be.

But if looking at only the numbers, I'm not sure either if the business is contracting that much. The number of paysites had really grown at some point, so customers got spread out on a lot more sites. Maybe there aren't as many new paysites opening now, but there's way more other channels to pay for porn, cam sites, pay for clips, customs, private cam shows on skype, whatsapp, and who knows how many other networks. And more and more young people from more and more countries are willing to pay for things on the internet, and billers are making it easier for them. Hopefully at some point we'll be able to sell porn to all the Chinese, Russian, and Indian people. ;)

I ain't complaining ...

:2 cents::2 cents:

Im all for cutomers getting what they want, BUT.....

The only TRUE, HONEST product out of all of these would be a Paysite, with NO Trials and No cross sells. Thats about as straight up as it gets.

I love how people come down on Dating because the girls aren't real, but they will promote a $1 trial pay site with a cross sell or two, LOL. Lets be honest. The point of a trial is NOT to let the user test the site to see if they enjoy it and would like to then pay (Im sure some small sites take that approach, but 99% do not).....its to get them in the door for as little as possible, then PRAY they forget and don't cancel.

If a pay site really wasn't trying to trick the user, wouldn't it be the right thing to send an email saying, "Your trial is up in 24 hours, If you don't cancel you will be charged" Or better yet, why not do a FREE trial WITHOUT a negative option???? Give them a 3 day free trial and if they like it, let them pay, if not, access is shut off?

Anyone doing anything other than straight up monthly billing with no crosses is playing in the gray area and being a bit shady. Just the way it is

That is true. Pre-checked cross sells is not a nice business practice, porn paysites have their own shady practices too. The worst are the ones that will have 2-3 pre-checked cross sales to shit sites with old leased content, but fortunately that is rare. There are really lots of honest pay sites, but it's hard for them out there.

As for trials, I think they're acceptable if they can be easily canceled up until the last minute before the rebill.

There's one more reason for trials though, and it is legally collecting valuable emails, and then legally selling them things. Sites have tried the free trial thing in the past but it didn't catch on, so I think it's not that easy to to make money on those freeloaders. I think it might be doable though - you could start by limiting free trials to tier 1 countries. And only giving them a small part of the member area, making the emails not too expensive to obtain.

I agree 100%.

Just like we do at Big Tits Claudia Marie

No trials, no x-sells, no rip off.

So rare these days...

:thumbsup

Why would you consider a cam site to not be honest and legitimate? In most cases the user can surf the site and profiles without an account. The per minute or show pricing is clearly marked. Depending on the site the user can purchase credits in advance or if open ended billing they must authorize each transaction.

Out of the three product types listed cam sites are by far the most up front and honest. Also the one with the highest ceiling and brightest future.

It's good you clarified that.

I think the heat you took in this thread (from me and others) was based on the assumption that you were talking paysites.

As an affiliate my paysite joins are approaching zero. My dating joins are holding, with lots of work though. Like Robbie said it's going in a sideways direction instead of up.

Paysites are not dead.
Paysites are the only sites that create CONTENT.

If paysites are dead then porn is dead.
Paysites are not dead.

If paysites were dead people like Ma Dalton would be out of business.
I am FUCKING SICK of hearing affiliates say "Paysites are dead".

Paysites are not dead.
Imagination, skill, focus and hard work are dead.

Keep in mind that in a recent discussion with Ma Dalton over tubes, he informed me that the tube sites are now buying content from him to fill their tubes with. :)

Please don't bring reality into my late night weed-fueled rants. :D

heh-heh!

:pimp