I can't believe this is real.
At first I started to laugh but then I started to cry realizing it is this bad.

reading this thread i thank god obamacare was created to kill off well off white males.

Wow. Those are awesome skills! I can't tell that video apart from the debate below.

This may teach you something about socialism.
It's a cartoon from 60 years ago so the dems can probably understand it.

Can someone explain to me why making money with money should be taxed less then making money with actual labor. I've been making money with money most of my life and can't seem to understand how profit is different then profit

Also lots of clueless people on how real estate works in this thread. 1031 exchange and cash out refi. If you do flips then who cares that's just short term money so just cost of doing biz

"President Franklin Delano Roosevelt acted against the ferocious opposition of the ruling class of his day, people he called economic royalists, Roosevelt implemented a series of programs that put millions of people back to work, took them out of poverty and restored their faith in government. He redefined the relationship of the federal government to the people of our country. He combatted cynicism, fear and despair. He reinvigorated democracy. He transformed the country.

And that is what we have to do today.

And, by the way, almost everything he proposed was called â??socialist.â?� Social Security, which transformed life for the elderly in this country was â??socialist.â?� The concept of the â??minimum wageâ?� was seen as a radical intrusion into the marketplace and was described as â??socialist.â?� Unemployment insurance, abolishing child labor, the 40-hour work week, collective bargaining, strong banking regulations, deposit insurance, and job programs that put millions of people to work were all described, in one way or another, as â??socialist.â?� Yet, these programs have become the fabric of our nation and the foundation of the middle class.

Thirty years later, in the 1960s, President Johnson passed Medicare and Medicaid to provide health care to millions of senior citizens and families with children, persons with disabilities and some of the most vulnerable people in this county. Once again these vitally important programs were derided by the right wing as socialist programs that were a threat to our American way of life."

Senator Bernie Sanders on Democratic Socialism in the United States - Bernie Sanders

â??The most hated sort, and with the greatest reason, is usury, which makes a gain out of money itself, and not from the natural object of it. For money was intended to be used in exchange, but not to increase at interest. And this term interest, which means the birth of money from money, is applied to the breeding of money because the offspring resembles the parent. Wherefore of an modes of getting wealth this is the most unnatural.â?�

Aristotle, Politics, Book One, Part X,

one reason can be illustrated by following hypothetical example:

- you buy a $100k house (at a time when a "car" costs $20k, so you can buy 5 "cars")
- inflation rate is 10%/year
- so 10 years later you sell that house for $200k
- naive person would think you made $100k "profit", but really that $100k is "phantom profit"
- you get taxed 50%+ like Sanders proposed on that 100k "phantom profit" and so you end up with $150k
- you try to spend that $150k on other goods and notice that your buying power is far less than what you had 10 years earlier... ("cars" went up 200% too, so they now cost $40k, you want to buy cars now, but can't even buy 4 of them when 10 years earlier you could have bought 5 with your capital)

so when all is done, you had your capital frozen for 10 years and end up with negative real rate of return on top of that... :helpme

there are indeed some tricks to minimize the damage... but 1031 has many limitations, cash out refi is great if interest rates are low, when they are high it doesn't work that great anymore...

Ок you convinced me.

You're in russia.

I'm not here to convince you. I'm actually not here to convince anyone.

That quote shows that the negative label of socialism doesn't apply to Bernie Sanders any more than it applies to the good ole USA.

Well, I'm more interested in the process of implementation of socialism in a capitalist society.
I was not trying to denigrate Bernie. I just have too biased toward socialism.

I do agree that both Social Security and Medicare have become socialism.

Was/Is Social Security supposed to be socialism? Not the way it's written. It's supposed to be the govt. saving MY money and giving it back to me when I retire.

It has BECOME a socialist program because it was instantly used to pay for people over age 65 who had never been a part of it. So for the first few decades...the govt. handed over working people's money to retirees who had never paid a dime into the system.

And now we have todays workers paying for yesterdays workers retirements instead of the way it was supposed to be.

Typical govt. stupidity.

That's why Social Security is always on the brink of bankruptcy.
Bureaucrats already have "solved" the problem they created themselves by proposing to raise the Social Security tax limit. That will remove any aura of legitimacy of Social Security as it was originally intended and turn it into an outright welfare program for older people.
Socialism.

The only reason that socialism has survived in Europe is because the United States federal govt. is full of power hungry bureaucrats who want to be the "policeman of the world" with a huge overbloated military.

If the countries in Europe no longer could count on the U.S. to protect them militarily...and had to spend their own money on their own military...it would be a different story.

And even with the U.S. doing that (and fucking our citizens out of our money to do so), European countries are still on the verge of defaulting on loans because they simply can't afford to pay for so many people on the dole.

Want to see what socialism will do to a country? Just look at Europe for your answers. If you like what you see...then I would say that you are socialist and should be proud of it.
If you don't...then you are a capitalist...like me. And I'm proud to be one.

Most everyone does. I do too. I'm not a socialist. Bernie Sanders is not a socialist.

I'm glad you used Social Security as an example of Socialist policy.

Social Security was doomed to fail from the get-go, but it worked at the time because the baby boomers saved our asses. There were more people paying into the system than collecting benefits. But now that the boomers are at the age where they're the ones collecting benefits, it's no longer sustainable. It used to be 100 paying into SS, and one person being paid benefits. Now it's 1 person paying, and 10,000 people collecting. It can't work. Just like Democratic Socialism (or any type of Socialism), it may "fix" things for a short while, but it's not sustainable and will eventually come crashing down.

Socialism is a quick fix that may look good to a select group, but as a political or financial system, it is proven not to work. Eventually the guy breaking his back making good money will realize he can have the same standard of living as the guy sitting at home doing jack shit. The next thing you know, a huge majority will be at home doing jack shit, and a minority will be responsible for the majority. Like Social Security, a Socialist-based program, it's unsustainable.

Lame spin attempt. My point in posting the quote was clear, to show that historically this country has embraced social programs and in a big way. Some have worked, some haven't, and that has absolutely zero to do with the fact I pointed out.

Medicare for everyone.

No spin job. You posted a quote by Bernie Sanders regarding how previous presidents successfully ushered in socialist policies. And I pointed out how those socialist policies are now failing. I generally agree with you on almost everything you post in regards to politics, but I just can't see eye-to-eye with you on this one.

The reasons for the social security issues are vast and complex, including such things as life expectancy and minimum wage and plenty in between. The program has faced bigger issues before and emerged from them.

Either way, I'm not here to sell Bernie Sanders.

But the only thing you've done is point out that social security could be facing a funding issue.

That's certainly not an argument against Bernie Sanders or the fact that this country has embraced many social programs small and large for a very long time. It's not even really a solid argument at all against social programs in the USA.



Vote for whomever you want, I am. I'm not here to sway voters. I went otr stating bernies my guy. I like Bernie, you do not. cool.

There is nothing "complex" about the SS issues... the issue is pretty damn simple, it was passed as a program that people pay into, then get their $$ back in retirement...

... but then some brilliant socialist(s) came along, said "we have all this $$ in the SS fund, lets start paying it out"... in effect stealing the $$ from the fund that was supposed to to go for retirees that paid into it few decades later...

... that $$ is now long gone like a fart in the wind, so now more brilliant socialists are proposing to "fix" it by raising SS taxes and/or income limits... and then on top of that they try to muddy the water by calling the SS issue "complex", when it was simply theft by their socialist buddies that occurred few decades earlier that is the root of all the SS problems... :helpme

screw you crickett, I'm voting demo this year, not that facts matter to a socialist. Here it is, answer me what you say to the families of the millions of people that were tortured and killed for socialism?

You're wandering aimlessly through threads again - you want the other thread wherein you and I are having a somewhat one-sided battle of wits.

Yep the socialist Reagan
Ronald Reagan and The Great Social Security Heist : FedSmith.com

I'm not going to argue with you after I just finished reading the social security program's annual report and forward looking statements along with a couple analysis of that from both sides.

Right. Speaking of wandering aimlessly, heads up, this is the thread where the adults can disagree with each other without the snarky baloney you seem to need to wander aimlessly in here to try and spread.

that article shows exactly what I just said, that the $$$ was stolen and that that is the root of all SS problems...

I don't think it's particularly relevant who was the president at that time or what political party they belonged to... but if you are not comfortable with my use of "socialist", lets just use politician/bureaucrat instead... but that doesn't change a single thing, it still remains a fact that you can't trust the government to a run anything, including a simple program like SS...

(and that article isn't even 100% accurate, it implies that shadiness started in 1983, it started way earlier... I can't be bothered to look up exact dates, but it's not like it matters anyway...)

Woj, are you arguing against socialism or government?

both, I think one implies the other... you can't have socialism without "big" government, nor can you really have "big" government without socialism... I'm not against the "government" in some anarchist sense but I prefer the government to have smaller role in our lives...

Do you think it would take that much more government to have free public higher ed in America?

Al Gore: "Lockbox."

:D

Since I am a high school dropout I will answer that question: No.

I don't think that is the right question... I think it should be established if it's even desirable to have tax payers pay for higher ed of others in the first place... and I'm far from convinced that it actually would be a good idea...

what's so desirable about forcing one person to pay for higher education of someone else? what's wrong with paying for your own higher ed?

How do you feel about government getting involved in "venture capital" type of activities? Someone wants to start a business, should government be involved in funding companies? After all, if they succeed we will all benefit?

How is getting higher ed different from starting a business? you are proposing funding a student for many 10s of thousands of $$... would you be as open to fund anyone that wants to start a business for similar amounts?

Perfect! This is what I need!

"Hey Gov't: I want to start my own blowjob business. I need 100k to hire the ho's. What form do I fill out for that?"

if it's a good idea to give some kid $100k to go to college for perhaps no other reason than because he thinks it's a cool thing to do, why shouldn't Mr Porn Nerd get 100k to start a legitimate blowjob research company? who knows, maybe he will discover some new revolutionary way to perform blowjobs that will change mankind forever?

I think that when we all aren't arguing over this we can all agree that there is a "sweet spot" where govt. is big enough to really be of service and govt. is too damn big and overreaching.

In my opinion we overshot that "sweet spot" a few decades ago and need to dial it back a bit.

Other people are of the opinion that we need to go further in the direction that we are heading now and anyone thinking otherwise wants to go "backwards".

We all have our own individual experiences and reasons for having the opinions we have on the subject I suppose

School Taxes
 

That's because someone before you paid their property taxes for you to get an education.

As for "Capitalist" Korea, they have universal healthcare.

FICA taxes are 15 1/25%. 1/2 each paid by employer & employee. However they are capped at earnings of $117,000. Self employment the person is taxed the entire 15 1/2%, but the person gets to deduct 1/2 of the tax.

Socialism
 

My local "socialist" government runs the water & lights. My rates are much lower than the "capitalists" across the river from me.

I don't have the energy to read the entire thread tonight; but ....

My legacy to the world is my kids.

:thumbsup

Yeah, otherwise I'd love to see that.

Lots of us went to private schools.

Holy crap, I could not watch the entire thing, but fu-u-uck

Yeah, without interest at that.

All I know is I am hiring Woj to be my blowjob business lobbyist.

:thumbsup

The level of propaganda it takes to convince people that the level of socialism being proposed is anything like Communism. Must make Joseph Goebbels spin in his grave. :1orglaugh

When one splits the States by votes, one sees a lot of poor people must be voting for Republicans. Turkeys and Christmas spring to mind. All confirmed by the fervour they greet Sarah with.

Well off, white males can afford to get robbed by private insurance.

So I could have landed in the US before my 65th birthday and claimed a pension?

Can you explain how someone can suddenly get Social Security and Medicare without being part of the system?

I kind of get what you're both saying.

When Social Security and Medicare were constructed it was at a time when most Americans had well-paying jobs, the tax revenue was high enough to support the low cost of demand. Since then Governments have sold the ideal of free trade. Allowing companies to export those jobs to the Third World and replace a job making a product to selling it a mall.

Also, companies basing themselves in places like the Cayman Islands to not pay the right level of taxes.

To add to this Governments insist on importing cheap labour to put citizens out of jobs or lower wages.

Agreed it's the Governments fault and most of you, opposed to change, are saying they should keep doing it. This isn't a US situation, it's Worldwide. We need to stop companies basing themselves in places to dodge tax, tax imports from countries dumping cheap goods on is and sue any company employing illegal labour into bankruptcy. What a fine American he is.

This was possible when the manufacturing industries of the West could afford to pay for it, or couldn't hide their money.

epic :1orglaugh

Can you give us examples of what SS payments were paid out to?

If it was paid out to hospitals, invalid benefits that's no problem. The money goes back into the US economy to keep those in real need alive and provide jobs for people who will buy from you.

If it was to fund a war overseas, it gives jobs to soldiers and arms producers. Funding farmers keeps the prices of food down. However if it was to go to a company to rebuild a plant in Iraq, it's lost.

If things like healthcare, private insurance against being made redundant because your job is now done by a girl in China or a migrant in the US or developing cancer. They will charge 100% more and try to find a loophole to not pay.

This whole debate is about How do we pay? Because for sure you have to pay.

Roads, police, fire, health, education, control of big business, pollution, industrial waste and as much as possible. Can go into the hands of private companies. And if anyone thinks that's better, I have a bridge to sell.

It excludes the best in favour of the richest.

Such as a pension run by a company or a Union in the pocket of the Mafia?

I read the article.

So instead of ring-fencing the funds Governments robbed the people of their money. Reagan was a Republican, you might as well put a fox in charge of the henhouse.

Tax cuts do not stimulate an economy when the money is spent on imported goods. It puts money into the pockets of the 1%. That's something a 12-year-old would understand. And yet it's a message many don't get. The 1% understand it.

We all have opinions, the world runs on facts.

Give real examples of where you would suggest cutting back and how the cutbacks would impact you in terms of replacing them via private suppliers. And any positive of negative effect the cutbacks would have.

Half the 18 year olds should be nowhere near a college - they enroll in programs acquiring knowledge that will only be useful shooting their mouths off on Internet forums, most don't even get an undergraduate degree, meanwhile they are now 20 and already in debt with college loans. Donald Trump promises that when he becomes President he will somehow force Apple to manufacture the iPhone and its other products in the USA - industry experts say even if Apple wanted to manufacture in the US they couldn't, a major reason why is the US doesn't have the number of skilled people qualified to do the job - our people are either overqualified/too expensive or underqualified to do the work required. Kids should be in tech/trade schools/community colleges after high school to get the skills to do those kind of jobs.

As for the kids who really are mature enough and have the motivation to go to school and get a degree, here's a list of hundreds of damn good universities in the US with tuition fees between $5-10K a year 2015 US State Colleges and University Tuition Costs Comparison Table - what's the fucking problem with that? There is no reason in the 4 months of summer vacation a kid can't make $5,000 - if the kid wants to live on campus or his own apartment, get a part-time job or Mom and Dad can help out or get a loan. Don't be looking at strangers for handouts, try doing it yourself with some help from those who brought you into this world. If I had my way I'd sterilize everybody over 12, white black and every other color in between, until they are self supporting human beings capable of supporting a child.

Anyway there's not a chance in hell Bernie Sanders will become President of the United States but 20 years from now most of his plan will have come to pass - the US was never the capitalist utopia conservatives like to harken back to, look at the income tax rates in the 1950's - the top marginal tax rate was as high as 90%. There were a ton of loopholes but even so the top tax rate was 50-60%. The US has been on a steady path of increasing socialism since the Great Depression, like the rest of the world's democracies. Reagan and Clinton let the bankers and the very rich get richer and richer without paying their fair share but socialism continued, the national debt is testament to that. As long as the US dollar remains the world's reserve currency I say just keep borrowing and printing money - who's coming to collect on it?

The US needs a flat tax with every loophole the richest and largest corporations and individuals use to avoid paying their fair share wiped out. Trump has railed many times against corporate tax inversions, he's railed against the medical insurance companies, would be very interesting to see if he came through on promises to do something about those.

Bernie would be a complete mess because he'd deliver on the higher taxes for everybody but he'd never be able to pull off most of his plan to pay for his promises while hurting small businesses, costing more jobs, putting more people on the public dole.

Trump isn't the ogre and moron he's playing in this campaign, if he were to get into the White House, he'd reveal himself to be what he really is - a New Yorker, more liberal than conservative, he'd appease the right who got him elected by being tough on immigration, supporting the 2nd Amendment to the hilt, and just good old fashioned American patriotism/jingoism.

The failure of Social Security is very easy to explain, and it's a perfect illustration why Socialism doesn't work.

When social security was put into place, a vast majority of the U.S. population was at a working age, and gainfully employed. It doesn't matter how much money they were making, it only mattered that they were paying into social security. Then we had the baby boomers, which made the fund blow up. So just for this post, I'll make up a number. There were 10,000 people paying into social security for every person receiving benefits. That's 10,000:1, and the coffers were running at a surplus.

Other programs that were hurting, saw the huge surplus and thought, "Hey, we can borrow some social security money to help pay for our program. They can afford it, there are plenty of people paying." -- in essence they robbed Peter to pay Paul.

Well then the Baby Boomers started to age, and the numbers started to shift. The entire paradigm of working Americans shifted. No longer were people staying gainfully employed, but now they had all these fat government assistance programs that allowed them to be jobless, but still retain a comfortable way of life. So now there are less people paying into social security, all the time its coffers are being robbed to support programs ultimately built to empower non-workers. So now for there are 10 people paying for 1. That's quite the jump from 10,000:1. But the same amount of money is being taken from social security and allocated into other government assistance programs.

Now we're at a deficit with the amount of people paying into social security vs. the people receiving benefits. Now it's 1 person paying for 1,000, so 1:1,000. And there are no maths in this world where a system like that can work.

When the Social Security Administration starts to panic and asks, "Hey, can you guys start repaying all that money you took?" -- they're laughed at and told that the other programs can barely afford to run themselves, much less repay the SS funds. So now the politicians have to start cooking the books, and finding ways to pay out funds from an empty account. They're starting to borrow money or impose higher taxes on the working class to cover what they fucked up. Back in the 90's, social security was a revolving door, money coming in immediately went out to pay benefits. Since then, social security funds have gone completely into the red, and they're doing whatever they can to get benefits out. The system is beyond broken, it's FUBAR.

But instead of allocating new funds to put people back to work, they're implementing programs to make people even more dependent on government assistance. Welfare recipients don't pay into social security. In a nutshell, that is what will happen to our economy if any type of Socialist policy is put into place. Sure, most people will feel an immediate positive response. But how long will that really last? I'm not worried about myself, but I'm not trying to fuck up my children's opportunity to a great life. I don't want them waiting in food lines, or depending on anyone for assistance.

From a New York Times article:

"At most public universities, only 19 percent of full-time students earn a bachelorâ??s degree in four years, the report found. Even at state flagship universities â?? selective, research-intensive institutions â?? only 36 percent of full-time students complete their bachelorâ??s degree on time."

And we all know what most bachelor's degrees are worth, not bloody much.

Well if it's a personal residence then as of now you get capital gains waived. Also you cannot 1031 a personal residence and also the main goal of a personal residence isn't investment

Now if you invested in this scenario you'd have to compare your results to other investments to see how it would perform. They would also face 10% inflation and 50% capital gains. Can just abuse roths and tax deferred some more...

If I want to start a business with this money why should I be taxed at 30%+ of my profits then just 15% if I lazily just stick it in the stock market.

Exactly! A bachelor's degree is hardly worth the parchment its printed on. Now imagine the worth of it when they start giving them away for free. Companies these days won't even schedule an interview unless you have a Masters.

that's completely irrelevant, it was sold as you saving money for your own retirement... you paid it, decades later you find out that money was stolen, and that chance of you getting benefits you were promised are slim to none... but they have a fix, we'll just raise taxes and keep the ponzi scheme going for another few decades...

I have no idea how you can keep a straight face and tell me the way it played out is not a complete disaster...

that's a myth, how did you reach that conclusion? For every brilliant kid who couldn't figure out how to pay for college there are 5 that went on a 2 year college "vacation" then dropped out... do these 5 not take up spots that could be used by the "best"? You make it free, and there will be more of these "vacationers" squeezing out more competent students who really had a drive to learn...

and really, it's debatable if someone who is unable to work out how to pay for college is really the "best"... I think the "best" is one that has both "book smarts", but also drive, determination, etc and just a hint of "street smarts" to work out how to pay for college....

1932 was? there was the major depression at the time Social Security was created.