for the average user the content is already out there and is free

Obviously not a waste for those creating them.

Thanks! :thumbsup I always appreciate hearing that.

I may be talking out of my ass here, but .....

..... is there anything preventing Paysites from setting up FREE "user uploaded" tubes available in their memberships areas, of which only their paying members can be "users" afforded the luxury of likewise uploading content that may coincidentally be produced by companies owned by the corporations that also own the Thieving Tubes; of which non paying visitors can surf through but only with limited viewing privileges of let's say 30 seconds per clip?

Your potential members wouldn't be paying to access FREE content nudge nudge wink wink, but instead be paying for the luxury of having a remote server to store, access and share their favorite videos like done at said Thieving Tubes.

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I thought not.

Seems to me that fighting fire with fire, offering your members more and accumulating additional sign ups to offset increased server expenses makes more sense than partnering up with and selling your soul to the Devil - all the while ( collectively ) chipping away at His profits.

The pharmacy at a ''superstore (Meijers-like WallyWorld or Tescos)'' refills one of my prescriptions for free. Why? To get me into the store -- I will buy $30 -$60 of groceries there and get 1 month -- of one common generic med -- refilled free. They Robo-call for me to reorder then Robo-call in a day when the script is ready for pickup. I do go there and buy and spend money every month :thumbsup

Use free to sell something ...

Hey Duke. Damn really? I didn't think we had a bad thing going between us. I'm sorry you feel that way.

I know i've made comments about certain niches. Those were just my views. Obviously everybody can draw their own conclusion from it. It's never been a personal attack just a view on the niche.

I'm sorry I came across like a douchebag. I haven't heard many people say that as I try to be nice to everyone. I think it was a misunderstanding. I've always hated shows as I've never been comfortable at them. I'm bad at cutting a conversation short when I have to be somewhere else. Still no excuse for it. I apologize it was never intended.

Ethically Ruthless? Damn i've opened a can of honest in this thread. Would love to hear examples of being ethically ruthless besides working with tubes early.

That is the key. Same way we ran Twistys. Earn their trust and deliver value to them for a long period of time. That business model can sustain ups and downs of the biz

No No No.

You conduct business honestly but work harder than anyone.

Sorry

:thumbsup:thumbsup Awesome! For a second I thought I added another person to the list of people who don't like me.

It's tough to spend that $30.00 a month on a subscription. So I think if you overwhelm them with quality and quantity you may have luck? Researching, lurking, trying to see if pay sites are worth it, I guess depends on how much you've spent. As long as you have something that someone gets turned on from then you have a sale.

Personally I like The Habib Show over let's say X-Art or Nubiles. Why? Sleezey. It's pure real life looking drug/booze fun. I would spend money with that than a teenage virgin-looking model masturbating with a carrot.

Plus I don't want to see a European girl trying to be cute speaking the Queen's English. Normal-- spent $40.00 on motel, $20 on cigarettes, $100 on booze, $5.00 on cheap condoms with a girl from the club, Craigslist or escort. That's real life...

That shit is free to watch at tube sites... But watching without having pop ups and other distractions is worth it.

That's like saying "I'm not a murderer!",
"Except for those people I killed a while back" :disgust



























Come on, you set that up and I knocked it out the ballpark! :1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh




.

I bet WR private webcam shows will be top of the offer soon! Plus some jerking hardware for full interaction model-user, that will cash out money from cocks...

I have to say those buy a DVD or movie options like Third World Media is killer. Very damn appealing.

VR is too expensive to buy if you're just starting.

If I had some dough. VR, DVD and 4K and high def would be my investment. And of course a little bit of skinning to make site look better.

Casino whales pay more for more chips, webcam whales pay more for more money. You can not do exactly that with paysites. Well you can - charge per scene, not monthly subscription. Would that be such a hit for your revenue?

If you have a variety of things making money. I think a Paysite is good. It's hard to compete.

You can use a straw to drink $2 bottled water!

That's synergy folks. :D

Why did this thread turn into a shit-fest against paysites ??

I was hoping to hear some ideas on how to make them more profitable, not make me want to slice my wrists and watch the life leave my body :Oh crap :1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

I suppose so long as it's user uploads, or no one can prove otherwise, and the site responds to DMCA notices. Seems OK. Of course, it also helps if the company and site aren't based in the US.

This is the sad state we're in today.

If 1,000 came in for a free product that costs the pharmacy money and bought nothing. The pharmacy would soon go bankrupt. You use something, that's free or very low costs, to throw traffic at sites.

Agree. Paysites and Cams have to offer a lot more than a girl who can't talk English well, is doing it for real with emotions, and connecting to the consumer. I liked The Habib Show just wanted more contact with her talking to the viewer. Personal preferences I guess.

To gain a customer's trust and loyalty the product has to be worth it. This side of porn never thought that was true. There were few sites that paid enough to gain trust. Did Twistys pay as much as the offline market? That's around $4,000 per solo girl and treble or more for a BG video, with the producer retaining copyright?

Not having a go at you, just stating the obvious. Only those with a content producer as part of the ownership, were able to produce a real quality product. We all know them and many are still here. It was only the demise of offline that some sites were able to get the top shooters.

Even then members were able to download the whole site in a month and cancel. Then return in six months and download all the updates.

The only way forward is to offer something of real value that's live every day. Then the problem is creating it and affording it.

:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh ha, ha, ha, Porn Nerd just won this thread :thumbsup

Our paysite has all of that and a whole lot more. It will be the best site on the web. You wait and see. You have no other choice.
Everything is interactive. They can dress the girls. It will take months just to try all the features on the site and use them.
Still perfecting the menu system out but the ones who have tested it think it is great. The girls have not paid for a bite to eat since we started running tests
When the girls yawn the fans will know. When they take a sip of lemonade they will know.
One big draw is watching TV with them. Watch their favorite shows with them and talk about that shit when it is over. Sounds gay? Well it is but they love anything that brings them closer to the girls.

I've watched movies together with my ex over skype when I was traveling. Pretty cool. Especially when I didn't feel like talking and wanted to eat in the meantime.
I can see the appeal to this.:thumbsup

Have you seen bees knees before? Put that shit in a microscope and look closely, you will see a picture of our site. It will be the fucking bees knees.

We have been doing custom videos for 17 years. They get to write the script, pick the clothes out, They can even send outfits, toys, whatever for the girls to use in the video. This has always been a big part.
I mentioned before they can even cook dinner with them. 24/7 cams have been around but not like this. Cams work so well now. Where the girls go the fans go too

Well, if you cannot sell something (in sufficient quantity) get a job for a wage or retire :upsidedow

That pharmacy is in a store that makes money -- the local pharmacy shoppe is a distant memory. Things change ...

Sounds good :thumbsup

In 2005 I wanted to limit the content shared in preview but was "required" to place 12 or 16 images in galleries. Would have preferred less. So the industry has been "killing itself" via "overexpsure" for a long time.

Or "killing the little guy".

Anyway, there's still always room for "one more", and there are still lots of ideas outside "the box".

Have to change? Sure, in some ways. However all I see here is a bunch of low end shooters in a massive industry not able to capitalize on the available market.

Even the largest of companies are struggling to find quality shooters, they are all constantly looking to upgrade on them, sadly the talent is not within their circles. And they do not want to risk going outside the box.

The poor thing about a closed off/private industry like this is that new talent does not find its way in.. and I do not mean female talent. I mean behind the scenes. Even the best people at what they do would be considered extremely low end when it comes to mainstream. Their eye for good porn, their judgement when it comes to what models they should cast, the work they put into recruitment, their knowledge of what the market wants in terms of lighting (they always seem to be years behind), their research into equipment and just general drive they have when it comes to improving. The industry needs to open it's doors to the outside and let someone other than basement dwellers who have been here since the early 90s who managed to cash in early call the shots, shoot the content, etc. However, nobody is willing to take that risk in a declining industry, so it just inevitably falls harder than it should. I still see the same cookie cutter shooters who haven't produced a modern twist on porn in 20 years, shoot just about every scene still being made today, most haven't even been a key factor in the success of any site. How can things really trend in any other direction?

I hear the major companies CONSTANTLY talking about how they want to shoot in higher quality, shoot like blacked, etc etc - however why are they not doing it? the ones that are now, why not sooner? and the ones that are, why are they falling short? Its not rocket science. Did they really think that talent was the best? do they really think they made them look their best? do they look as good as they do on x-art/blacked? no, figure the details out. I do think the production teams are a little separated from the owners. Production teams are basically given a budget to produce a scene, that production team will shoot that as efficiently as they can so that they can profit the most. Not the best way to conduct business. Nevermind that, the company will continue to purchase them as they are good enough to generate a product, they dont exactly aim as high as they should and they dont exactly have the drive to step outside the few select shooters they know either. No different than producers dont waste their time with recruiting talent, you get some no shows, etc - Producers aren't willing to take that risk, which leaves us with an industry with a lack of new good talent

I could go on and on, while there is an obvious decline, paysites are FAR from in bad shape. The VERY few that have an eye for above average content are doing very well for themselves, especially given how much it costs to launch a site. Profit margin is still insane.

Basically how about this industry actually tries to do what theyre doing right first, before trying to create some new way to offer it. What you're selling is garbage. Just because it's porn, doesn't mean people should be tripping over themselves to buy it. How many here talking about how paysites have declined have created anything that could be considered more desirable than tube content? I haven't seen a person post a thing. Somebody went out and did it finally and was successful. Lets just say I am not shocked. Less people doing it, less people succeeding. The people who have succeeded are sitting on a ton of money and probably have alot better things to do with their money than throw it back into a declining industry. They also have ridiculously high expectations in what type of profit they should get as well, due to them being in this industry during its peak. Bill from NubileFilms will have much higher expectations for his site, than somebody starting out today, perhaps expectations that are a little unrealistic. I have noticed a few companies not interested in continuing to launch products due to their profits declining on their flagship site, its not exactly motivating. However I think alot of them do not realize the profit is in continuing to launch products, its not 1999 before where you could make it rich and make your living on a single brand. You max out a sites by reaching the ceiling, it will inevitably fall over time, thats why you launch another.

People use this lack of successful sites as evidence of their decline, however thats not exactly the case here. Until I see a top notch site produced with top notch talent, exclusive content and with somebody who knows about marketing behind it, FAIL. Then the talk about paysites and their state is a bit strange. Blacked is not struggling to profit.

Feels good to take such a big shit eh? Yeah let it go bro :thumbsup

:1orglaugh

The paysite industry had 10 years to make big money. During that time it worked hardest at giving away free porn. So lost more than they sold. The future is bigger and better Tubes paid for by advertisers.

What's a quality shooter? Not someone with good photographic/film skills. I've worked with people who were trained at film school worked for the BBC. fucking clueless at producing porn. Pornography skills have nothing to do with the equipment.

There are no new ideas to film porn. There hasn't been for 20 years, so forget about that idea. Because fucking hasn't changed for million of years. All we can do is change the models, style, niche, and location.

The problem is ROI. Brian's idea sounds expensive, how many members does he need to make it break even? This has busted loads of sites who tried to over think the wheel.

What is a quality shooter, somebody who is professionally trained AND can figure out the porn market, clearly those people you worked with, couldn't. I do not think it is hard to find somebody. Producers always like to pump their own tires by mentioning how hard it is to have the eye, they also say shooting is hard, they say alot of stuff is hard because nobody is going to admit what they do isnt hard, it takes away from their skill and pay. Fact is. It's not rocket science. Perhaps you guys have never worked a job outside adult. 90 percent of kids these days on instagram have better eyes for photography than adult shooters. You think it'd be hard, I do not. I picked up a camera and figured out how to shoot better than most shooters within a day. I strongly believe this industry is full of people who have a better eye than non porn industry people but their technical skills and judgement of models lacks so much that it takes away from it completely, which makes their end product very limited. You disagree , that is fine. I dont expect a shooter to ever agree with me. This is the disconnect between shooters and owners

I didn't say new idea. I said do it well. I just mentioned things they arent doing well and could.

What is "doing it right", "top notch talent">

Tell us what paysites should be doing. Rather than saying, vaguely, they should produce better content.

As far as models, I cannot because people will surely disagree. And unless I still had the millions a day i had in traffic (to one site) and threw up a poll to ask which photo/model is better, I could not prove you wrong at the moment. So I do not care to get into the debate. Lets just say, blacked and x-art shoot better models and make them look better. Most people dont even see this, its sad. The fact you ask, shows me that its not as clear to you. Its clear to some and theyre raking it in. Its not clear to other companies because they are falling short. Sadly I cannot convince you that people do not have an eye. I can't show you what you cannot see. There are many people who are very good at their jobs who do see this and theyre the ones making money. I wont be surprised to see GFYers debate this. ;) I see new threads of producers posting HOT AMAZING new talent, i open and wonder if they posted the wrong pictures. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, correct. However when analyzing talent for the masses, there is a right and wrong. The people who get it right the vast majority of the time are the people good at their job

I already mentioned in my above post. Research lighting trends in porn. Stay ontop of camera technology. Rent something more expensive if you can't afford it now. Actually put time and money into recruitment. Be more hands on with an inhouse crew, as opposed to giving budgets to contracted production teams, etc. Be stricter with quality control. Spend more on wardrobe. Get better shooters. Actually put time and effort into looking outside your circle for a shooter, test a bunch. Do not hire the first shooter that is CAPABLE of doing the job OKAY. Hire hot girls. Hire girls who are trending. Get them early, pay for their first scenes. Pay for exclusive contracts (if you can). Learn lighting (white houses are good). Learn models good sides, learn what makes them look good. Learn how to style models according to what makes them look their best. Dont cheap out on locations. You get what you pay for, cutting corners and being cheap because youre worried it wont produce as much money before, means you'll get a product that won't make as much as before. This is what people dont get.

The list is much much longer than this, honestly, most fail at 95 percent of these things, then wonder why. Most do not see they fail at these things. They simply do not have any eye whatsoever. So telling them they dont will be lost on them

No one survives editing or shooting for the magazine market without knowing exactly what sells. So your approach is 100% wrong. Can I convince you that I know what sells the best?

It may not be what you can sell the best, many here swear blind their tiny little sites with crap content are making great sales. Some can't convert the best selling sites, which are clearly making money. Pre-online days a content producer had to spend $500 to $1,000s on a days work and not get paid for 6-12 months. Editors were putting together magazines 3-4 months in advance. There was no room for try it and see.

Video production, was, even more, money and a longer return.

Agree about what people here call hot talent. They need to get out of their basements more often and see more girls. :1orglaugh

There are people who do know what sells, they have to. Market surveys are to sharpen that knowledge. The problem is ROI or just paying for talent to model and produce.

Today recorded porn is dwindling. In 1995 99% of the people buying porn bought it because they wanted to jerk off to it. Tubes have taken that 99%, added some of the remaining 1% and killing the ROI on producing anything but live porn. And even some of that's in trouble. Because of free cams and independent girls.

Have you ever been in the porn industry apart from driving traffic?

The #1 problem with shooters and they way they shoot porn? Too much focus on cock in pussy (or asshole).

Guys do NOT want to look at a cock sliding into a pussy 50,000 times for eight minutes straight. In fact, to show how useless most shooters are:

Gorgeous girl, in the midst of pleasure, her face contorted with ecstasy...the shooter IMMEDIATELY pulls away and goes down to the pussy. Man is fondling her beautiful breasts - shooter IMMEDIATELY goes back to the pussy. It's almost as if the shooter is emotionally uncomfortable with anything 'real' or focusing on the beauty of the female form. Nope, gotta be a CLOSEUP of a cock drilling a pussy for eight minutes.

Get it? No, probably not. LOL Carry on. :)

Ryan, you just wrote out exactly what I was not willing to take the time to type. You are spot on. From my experience the sites I work with are all selling like crazy. They all have high quality production value and the consumers are willing to pay for it. I am often seeing budgets in the $6-10k a scene now for BG. Sometimes more. And the sites spending that (properly) are killing it.

From my perspective the sites that are in decline are in decline because the customers want better product. Too many sites are cranking out the same shit over and over. Even the sites (and video companies) I shoot for that are killing it with big budget scenes are looking for ways to improve and evolve.

Pay sites are not dying. The customer is just more savvy and the days of cranking out crap and selling it are over. :2 cents:

Exactly. Funny cause it's so true.

Not ever in my scenes ;) But you are totally correct. :thumbsup

I like you and like your work, so don't take this wrong, but name 3 pay sites (not owned by tubes because they monetize differently) which are paying remotely $10k a scene for pay site content.

Amelia. Hey! I like you and I like your work so I will answer what I can. I have NDA agreements with all the sites I shoot for now. **Edited and sent to you via DM ** And they are not alone. X-Art spends in that range all day long. So thats 3 right there. I am also shooting a $7000 scene this week for a website in Europe. These cost are normal for high quality scenes. My cost alone are almost always over $6000 a day. When you consider that the average cost for a 30 second commercial is $300,000 then these costs do not seem that great. Adult filmmakers and Hollywood filmmakers are starting to use the same tools and the consumer is now used to quality lighting and camera work.

By removing the girls' personality, they kill the reason to buy.