you feel safer today than a year ago, with 2 world leaders now threatening nuclear war on each other.

You're smarter than that.

People feel a certain way because of what they believe to be true. I don't believe any of the premise of this thread is true. Therefore, no - I am not afraid of any of this and I do feel safer because I believe in the logical end game and not headlines.

the threats aren't headlines. they're actual threats made be the 2 guys with access to nukes and war.

moreover, boyish threats aren't a negotiating tactic, they're a low thought bullying tactic. More moreover, the threats obviously failed and continue to do so. trump even continued to threaten nuclear war in his break-up letter to Un.

that's not art.

I'm not seeing what you are seeing...
North Korea has been threatening us for decades. Trump on the other hand has simply stated the obvious: NK would be decimated in any kind of war (nuclear of conventional) with the U.S.

Also...the entire tone is 180 degrees different today. The North Koreans are not threatening at all and are again making peaceful overtures...thanks to Trump calling their bluff.

It's all over the news today about how Pelosi and other Democrats look like fools because they IMMEDIATELY (just like a lot of partisan people on GFY did) started ridiculing the President publicly when he pulled out of the meeting.

And then within HOURS the North Koreans came back with their hats in their hands and a conciliatory tone...making Pelosi and others look like the fools they are.

The world DEFINITELY is "safer" today (if that is even a real thing) because Kim Jung Un tried to gain some leverage on the U.S. pre-meeting. Trump easily handled him (decades of experience in real negotiations) and the dance continues.

Mark starting this thread is a prime example of a very smart guy jumping the gun and letting his emotional feelings (hatred) of Trump cause him to look...not so smart.

I had really hoped this kind of nonsense would STOP. But we are over a year into Trump's presidency and there seems to be no end to the hatred of the man.

I don't think Pollack is art, either - but people buy it for loads of money. As you pointed out in another thread - ultimately, art is in the eye of the beholder and it speaks to whomever it speaks to.

The threats are headlines - or better yet, they are in the script. This ride will be more fun if you just enjoy the show - or the art.

Robbie was saying that Trump deserved the Nobel Peace Prize.

Now Robbie is saying Democrats are getting ahead of themselves by saying there's no peace.

Robbie was stupid enough to post that he thought Trump deserved the Nobel Peace Prize for NK despite never meeting Kim Jong Un . :1orglaugh fucking moron :1orglaugh

there are a lot of different topics in this post!

both sides have threatened nukes within the last few days.


in reality 2 men threatening nuclear war on each other is not safer than them not doing so. It's not better than 1 guy threatening nukes and the other not.

I don't care for pelosi as much as I don't care for trump.

the tone is no different, regardless of rhetoric, NK is adamant and otr that they will not denuke.

there is no denuke dance.


mark does that.

I am at complete odds with a POTUS making boyish nuclear threats as a negotiating tactic. get rid of your nukes or we're going to nuke you is also childishly illogical and clearly hasn't accomplished anything.

just because trump claims it's art, doesn't make it so. just like there is no art in war.

there is no beauty (art) in recklessly and callously threatening nuclear annihilation.

https://media1.tenor.com/images/59d1...5da5/tenor.gif

I think you are ignoring the fact that threatening war and threatening to attack Seoul with artillery, shelling the area to "kill millions", firing rockets over Japan countless times, attacking/sinking vessels in the area to kill civilians, threatening the destruction of the USA almost daily, having a national position that they are still at war with the USA, having refused for years to work with the US/IAEA, having kicked them out, having lied countless times about enriching nuclear materials, having lied about facilities and capabilities, having threatened the USA BEFORE Trump was President with nuclear war many times, being a major selling of weapons to terrorists, the single largest counterfeiter of currency on the planet etc etc etc etc etc etc and then saying "Trump called his bluff and we're now all in grave danger" is a little disingenuous... as if there wasn't a real threat for 3-4 decades already and they aren't 100% impossible and ALWAYS making threats day and night as they improve their capability to carry them out.

The threat ONLY exists because they were never effectively confronted.

The only reason any shit country wants nukes is to get a seat at the nuclear blackmail table for their own gain. Before they had nukes and the US threatened to cut off their aid (oil, food, medical), they responded with "we'll take that as an act of war".

There is no choice anymore. IF the world wants to finally kill this cancer, the time for talk is over. We've been nice to them for at least 3 decades and got nothing in return but threats while they starved their own people to death and murder any opposition in macabre public executions, using anti-aircraft guns to turn a body to goo while the ruling elite watches.

They have no cards to play that don't end in economic collapse, collapse of the regime or their total annihilation. They literally have no cards left to play. They never did. Their only move at this point is to negotiate their survival. They can only be forced to the table when its made clear that there is no more Obama to give them a free pass on being assholes and making threats. The US, Japan and Korea let China use NK as a surrogate to play games. They all tried to appease and work with NK, while being threatened and lied to the entire time. Even Bill Clinton was actively drawing up plans to bomb them for their behavior.

No, we are not in more danger because a fat kid with no moves left is making the same threats they've been making for almost 3/4 of a century.

They've been forced to the table... not because they care, but because they are losing their grip on their people and they're broke. (Amazon has a shit ton of docs about NK and i love watching them). It's time to either break them and force them to the table or force their collapse. Obviously SK and Japan are of that same mind.

Not if you believed it when you threatened it.

There is art when it's done in the movies. You even get an award for it. And re-elected.

I'm not ignoring any of that. You're ignoring the fact that the nuclear threats are new. NK hasn't had nukes and therefor, could not threaten with nukes prior to recently. I haven't mentioned conventional war because trump isn't threatening conventional war, he's childishly threatening nuclear annihilation.

they weren't forced to any table. it wasn't trump's idea to have a summit, the idea of a summit was floated to him and he jumped at it less than 45 minutes after the idea was posited without any due diligence.


I've watched plenty of those docs as well. I'm not scared about a nuclear war, but that has nothing to do with the current childish rhetoric and nuclear threats making the world less safe that it was before. I'm having a difficult time with smart people not realizing that a war of words between 2 world leaders threatening nuclear war on each other is less safe than not threatening nuclear war.

that's something we should all agree on. as humans.

I think that we should all agree on the fact that when someone has been threatening your destruction and that of your allies for decades while you've done everything possible to assist them and give them chances, that at some point you completely pull the plug and call them exactly what they are and put an end to it.

This is an issue of national defense and the security of 3 nations being directly threatened continually by NK.... with decisions being made by people operating with 1000X more information than you or I have.


But anyway...
"You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you"
-Leon Trotsky


:)

I firmly believe some Trump supporters would welcome nuclear war.

The only reason we disagree on this situation is that we operate under different assumptions. If I believed what we are seeing was real, I would agree with you and that this kind of talk certainly makes us less safe. However, I don't believe that at all. I believe this is part of a script that is extremely well planned and shows an incredible insight into the minds of the opponent - because the same play works every time.

I don't see it that way at all.
The North Koreans have actually said over and over that they WILL nuke the United States.
They even made a propaganda film with CGI showing Washington D.C. being nuked (back during the Obama Admin)

Trump did not openly threaten them in the last few days. His letter is very, very good in my opinion.
He is respectful to them and at the same time puts in a reminder of our incredible military power.

That is what the Asian culture understands: Strength.

Hell, most cultures understand that. From the Middle East to the Far East.

The decades of our leaders acting like pussy's in their tone has led us to wars all over the globe, terrorists attacks, etc.

Nobody has to go to war, but acting too "sensitive" all the time when dealing with others makes you look weak. And when we are perceived to be weak...we get hit.

That is Trump's strategy. He wants to deal with the world from a position of strength.

We have already tried (for decades) to send in our diplomats with their limp-wristed subtlety and delicate wording. And what did that get us?

Think about that for a second.

Look at what President Obama's policy was towards North Korea for instance: "Strategic Patience" is what he called it.
I call that "kicking the can down the road" and doing nothing.

As President Trump said: This should have been taken care of a long time ago.

I do believe that Trump will resolve North Korea. Either with diplomacy or war.
And that's not Trump's "fault". That's the way it was going to go eventually no matter what.

I'm thinking that Trump may be the ONLY President we have had in modern times who can get this done diplomatically.
He will speak the language that they can understand...and not the expert diplomatic pussy gibberish that has failed our country for so long.

what would be wrong with trump using diplomacy and world coalition pressure to get NK to sign the UN treaty on nuclear weapon prohibition? Seems a smarter play than threatening nuclear war.

It's on its way to being codified as International law.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty...uclear_Weapons

I'm open to hearing reasons why not.

Yeah, we see the idiotic posts of people like you, beerpatrol and bladewire every single day. There's no doubt that you guys all believe a great deal of stupid shit that has no basis in reality whatsoever.

Watching the left melt down every single day is now one of my greatest pleasures... 8 years of self righteous "we are right about everything and if you dissagree, you're a racist hillbilly" has now been met with reality and you are firmly in the minority... and even more comical, still losing ground right now heading into mid terms and you continue to ratchet up your "We hate Trump" rhetoric, never realizing that it's your immaturity and intolerance and hostility to free speech and democratic elections that is causing your problem as a party to begin with.

http://shoebat.com/wp-content/upload...ppresident.jpg

Robbie, Trump's letter has a nuke attack threat in it. it's very passive aggressive.

They aren't new, they were doing this in the Obama years. I know you are not a blind Trump hater, but you are letting Trump's lose cannon image skew your view. The person you are quoting is right. China is done with NK's shit, everyone has had enough and now baby Kim has to come to the table. Trump holds all the cards and good for him for walking away. He doesn't need this meeting and like Robbie said look how quick NK changed their tune, maybe, just maybe Trump and his team might have this one right?

https://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/06/w...ler-nukes.html

A reason would be that they've violated every single agreement in the past which is what has brought them to this place and made them a nuclear country. No agreement is going to steer them from their strategic goals. Thats been proven countless times already.

That seems like a great place to start ;)

The best indicator of future performance is past performance. ;)

I disagree with how North Korea has been handled by the US government for decades. It's been kick the can sitch for a long while now.

But there's a lot of space between kick the can and threatening nuclear war. It should be completely unacceptable for the POTUS to verbally and childishly threaten nuclear war as a negotiating tactic.

I don't think people even took the time to look. NK signed this type of thing in 1985. They broke it time and time again. Now Trump breaks the Iran deal and it's the big bad Trump that doesn't keep his word. Not the North who go broke and need food every 6 months and for 30 years everyone says ''be good here is some food'' they shut up till that runs out then they run their mouth again to get fed... rinse and repeat. Now Trump has China on board and NK realizes they are finally going to have to have a real talk here.

Albert Einstein is broadly credited with exclaiming “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results”.

Maybe just maybe, Trump talking tough is the reason they are actually willing to make some serious concessions. Because god knows it hasn't worked for 30 years your way.

but trump can hold their feet to the fire of an agreement because...trump?

they're both agreements. the difference being one has the backing of the world and would be codified into law, the other can be broken, just like trump did with iran.

but they are not willing to make any nuclear concessions.

Maybe this time when no aid comes their way and people start to starve and his regime is in trouble he might change his tune? Trump won't cave like other Presidents have, Kim knows this.

A picture of Kim with Trump and a meeting that goes nowhere is only advantageous to Kim. So good for Trump walking away, but the same people who just 2 months ago called Trump a moron for flirting with the idea of having the meeting are now calling him an idiot for canceling that meeting. Up is down and down is up these days.

North Korea has done this over and over again. We've had multiple agreements with them and they've always fallen apart. But in this case Trump rushed in looking for what he thought was a quick win with no consideration to the past history and how complicated this is.

To date I have yet to see any indication Iran has violated the agreement. In fact, the only country who has violated the agreement is the United States. We cannot just pull out of the agreement because Trump doesn't like it or thinks Iran is in violation; According the agreement itself there is a list of steps that must be taken before a country can withdraw from the agreement and the Untied States failed to abide by the agreement.

To make matters even worse, the agreement is still in force, we just aren't a part of it. On top of that, our allies aren't in step with us and have shown no sign of supporting us with this agreement.

Emotions run high around trump, I understand.

I have to draw a line at childish threats of nuclear annihilation.

The agreement was done by Executive order because it wouldn't have passed properly. So Trump had ever right to get rid of the agreement. I mean you can't even inspect their Nuclear sites so can you even know they are abiding by the deal?

I guess the question is: Unacceptable to who?
Us?
North Korea?

Who gets to tell the President that what he says is unacceptable?

And which is worse...Trump using language to get shit done (as Reagan did in the 1980's when all the liberal media were screaming that the things he was saying would lead to nuclear war)...or Truman DROPPING atomic bombs on Japan?

I think what Trump's obvious strategy is, is to use tough talk to gain leverage to find a diplomatic solution.
I'm going to go with Trump's lifetime of real world experience over a bunch of diplomatic nerds and politicians and bureaucrats who have never negotiated anything successfully in their entire careers of sucking on the govt. teat.

Yeah...I'm a bit jaded about bureaucrats and politicians at the moment. lol
Their track record should be enough to convince anyone that Trump's way is a better way that the old and tired b.s. that has failed for some long.

YEAH but Robbie don't you know that Billionaire Trump who owns properties with his name all over them across the globe as well as a long line of merchandise in a variety of verticals is a FRAUD? He has never negotiated a single deal? Even people told us he hasn't.

Becoming a real estate billionaire is EZ don't ya know

Of course!
Everybody knows that Trump is a buffoon who made billions off a million dollar loan from his dad. He just lucks into everything. :1orglaugh

And to those idiots... I say: Good. We can use this buffoon bumbling his way to success for our country. :pimp

For me, the answer to your question is everyone. Everyone should tell the POTUS it's unacceptable.

We're still getting criticized for Hiroshima/Nagasaki 75 years later. We get to have nuclear weapons because we claim to hold the moral high ground.

Trump is trampling on those things as well.

I agree that Trump is trampling on the LIE that we have the "moral high ground".

Just like all the anti-Trump "liberals" are now praising the FBI and CIA to the high heavens (because Trump is calling them out on their misdeeds).

Our country used those two agency's to do some of the most horrible and atrocious acts over the years. And in the time before Trump...the media and the "liberals" were no friends of these spy agencies.
But now? Suddenly they are the "Intelligence Community" and are above reproach.
What a bunch of hypocritical horseshit.

Anybody that knows modern history is aware of how the FBI has done horrible things here in the U.S. and the CIA has been a nightmare around the world.

Our country has NEVER really been "moral". It's been a fabrication to justify invading other country's, secretly overthrowing leaders, assassinations, corruption...and now even trying to rig an election for Hillary Clinton.

I think Trump is the most transparent President we've ever had in that regard. You don't have to guess what he thinks.

With polished fake politicians like President Obama you would get this measured, scripted smooth talk. And then you were left to wonder what this plastic person REALLY was doing behind the scenes.

With Trump...he will TWEET to you exactly what he is thinking and doing.

I like that.

EDIT: By the way...we don't "get to have" nuclear weapons because of some imaginary moral high ground. We have them because nobody can take them from us.
I would bet you that IF we magically told the UN to take a vote if they want us to keep our nuclear weapons...they would strip us of them by unanimous vote. lol

So what? That saved literally hundreds of thousands of lives. Anyone who criticizes that action is dead wrong and has zero knowledge of the Pacific campaign during WW2

He's the only president to lie to the American people and say he's going to show his tax returns and then refused to show his tax returns.

That's not transparent

Trump refuses to interview with his FBI

That's not transparent

Trump refuses to publicly disclose all of his dealings with Russia.

That's not transparent

But to a brain dead trump supporter, Trump has the most transparent president in history :disgust

I agree except for the so what part. What I'm suggesting is that since the criticism about it still exists to this day, right or wrong, we should realize it does exist. Threatening nuclear annihilation, especially in the way trump does, scares the bejezus out of many people.

Putting aside our differences on the man, Trump, the issue here is nuclear weapons and how to diplomatically wield them. callously and lackadaisically trading nuke threats with a madman is not right or good diplomacy.

I think you know what I mean when I said we get to have nuclear weapons. Sure we can nuke the living shit outta anyone that tries to take our nukes. That doesn't negate the fact that the world has given it an OK in large part because we haven't abused it in various ways.

I think we should all be stripped of nuclear weapons in fact. They're an anomaly of history.

Also, the world looks to us for how to manage nuclear weapons right? Do we want to put forth the precedent of making nuclear threats and taunts or do we want to show a better way?

Seems to me it's dangerous to taunt and threaten with nuclear strikes like the POTUS does.