Exactly what people in ex Yugoslavia were telling for so many years, living under official parole of "brotherhood and unity", living, working and marrying each other. Then it happened and reality showed how wrong they were. Of course, no everyone is the same but it is incredible how a small % of them can start things going in the irreversible and wrong direction.

to take this discussion back to a point of sense I will answer you this question.

the thinking mistake is that you use 2 different answers for the same question.

this is exactly the rhetoric that makes people believe in a god because they look for someone who "made the nature" because it have to come from something but replace it with a god that suddenly does not have to come from something but exist always.

when you give the same right to the nature you do not have to go any further.

the human mind needs a beginning and an end for everything. and everything in between is called time. therefore there is a before and an after in our world view.

but this worldview is already refuted today by quantum physics.
actually we already know today that there is no such thing as time at all and never was.

however IF there is time it is dependent on space.
if the big bang theory is correct, then there was no space before it and therefore no time.
so there was simply no "before".

in the world of quantum things behave differently. things can be at different places at the same time and they can be dead and alive at the same time. these thought games like those of schrödiger´s katze are more than 100 years old and have been regarded as pure philosophy until now. quantum physics, however, has already proven them even if we don't know the reason for it yet.

there is also no logical reason why an omnipotent god would create creatures like he doesn't want them to. if he were so omnipotent then he could certainly do it perfectly.

in this new knowledge that we are just beginning to understand there is also much more of what we wanted to protect ourselves from through the image of god. because the great fear is the end after or the ultimate end. but the world of quanta shows us that there is no ultimate end and that now again agrees with the traditional physics, because in this physics energy CAN't disappear but it only changes its state.

so the answer simply lies in the divisibility of the number zero. because you CAN divide the zero into 2 different poles. this is also the wisdom of religions like buddhism. buddhists don't have a god - they never needed him because they believe in this divisibility of the number zero. and once you start to deal with it you will see that our whole life would not exist without this divided zero. this not only explains electricity and gravity but also happiness and unhappiness.

believe me - you don't need a god to be happy and fearless.
the only thing you need is a little empathy and a logical mind.

God is Dog spelt backwards. I believe in my Dogs :)

because they have been kind of "equal" and had a common enemy.

as soon as you have one that thinks he is better you will see that everybody else will follow.
and as they are smart enough to understand that they have to be in a group to be stronger, they will build a group. and if the group wins they will split the group in smaller and smaller parts.

the biggest problem to build a unite today is that too many people have been forced to live in one. they never have seen the importance of a a unite and always looked at the differences instead the commons.

we are far away from being perfect but IF mankind survives (what i actually doubt) it will be ONLY POSSIBLE as a unit.

everyone that works against that works against the human future.

people who believe in MAGA don´t understand that it means: make alle the rest of the world our enemies!

and this is EXACTLY what radical islam is made from.

So explain why peopleof different ethnic back grounds are killing each because they are different.



Are Buddhists killing Muslims in Myanmar? Yes and your exposed as a liar, no and your exposed as ..........

I told you multiculturalism doesn't work, you proved it.

When a book that is presented as the truth, starts with lies. I must question the book and the people telling me it's the truth.

Was it a message from a god or orders on how I live for the benefit of the people telling me it's the truth?

simply because they are on your education level or even lower.

again you show that you are just a troll with no knowledge of anything you are talking about.

this conflict has to do with EDUCATION and human rights.

the rohingyia have lived there for thousands of years and the united nations classifies them as the "most persecuted minority in the world".

according to the 1982 citizenship act, the rohingya are not considered one of the 135 (!!!) indigenous population groups (even when they lived there since thousands of years) and are therefore not entitled to myanmar citizenship.
as stateless persons, they have no rights whatsoever. They therefore have no opportunity to attend school, are not allowed to move freely within the country and are not free to choose their profession or spouse.

are you really wondering why this people are starting to fight for their rights?
but because they are muslim it is fucking easy to declare them terrorists because brainwashed uneducated with a voting right like you will believe it.

they will be used as a new example of how bad islam is even when this conflict there have NOTHING to do with religion.

Similar happened in Europe when Slovenians under supervision and advice from Germany took the rights from the people they didn't consider "loyal" enough. Over 200 000 people, where some of them eventually lost properties. It was a silent and masked ethnic cleaning supported by EU.

Anyway, those people didn't start killing each other because of that.

The Bible has been tampered with by people like you.

The quran hasn't. And guess what the Quran tells us about how the earth was created?

https://www.whyislam.org/on-faith/th...ern-science-3/

Next...

we don´t have to discuss that with facts that are history.
you can go to the roman empire to find excuses and similarities. that does not make it any better.

germany is still fighting today for the so called "deleted" but we have learned that power of weapons will not lead anywhere.

Dude god doesnt rape little girls. Evil men do. God just gives cancer and aids to infants

How do you mean it won't lead? Most of the world got what they wanted with weapons, exclusively. It is happening right now as we speak.

In the example above, I've just made a parallel because you justified they are using weapons. I've found an example showing that other people didn't in a same or similar situation.

ANyway, Muslims should not be mixed with western civilization as I am concerned. These are totally incompatible worlds and values. I've visited enough Muslim countries and I should be totally blind and deaf not to see those differences.

I'm a Christian - albeit, not a very good one. These days I only go to church when I'm visiting family. I cannot speak for all religious people, but I do struggle with my belief. I have doubts. To Thommy saying religious people are looking for easy answers is complete bullshit. There are no easy answers, but there are lots of hard questions. But in the end it's about faith, not choice - or "need" as you put it.

For the record, I also embrace science. Have you ever noticed that the creation story of the bible corresponds with the events of the big bang, the formation of the earth, then land masses, and then evolution from aquatic to terrestrial animals and ultimately man? Pretty cool.

Do you believe in alternate universes? Did you know the concept was initially theorized by scientist because the universal constants are such that intelligent life can exist in our universe. If any number of these constants was not just so, then intelligent life would not be likely. Since this seemed to indicate a divine creator, the multiverse idea was put forward to suggest that this is just one of the universes where all of these constants hold true, while in others they do not. Read more here and here.

I see a lot of people saying that religious belief is a sign of low intellect, but I think those persons who only see this as an either/or situation are illustrating their own cognitive inflexibility.

interesting standpoint but i ask you something.

if there is something what we can not explain yet - why do we have to create a god and pray to him ?

can we not simply admit that we don´t know it and that IF there would be a god that wants us to pray to him, the very easiest way would be to show himself and tell it?

how can a god that can do all and everything be so stupid and create us the way we are and later send us to hell because HE made us so unperfect?

as i said we do not need a god - there are many many other explanations by now and most of them are not to improve yet (same as god is not to improve).

but if something is yellow, quack quacks and waddles like a duck, then it takes a lot of fantasy and simplicity if you think there would be an elephant around the corner.

the bible says nothing about what we call science today.
maybe it can be found in some writings that the church keeps under lock and key, because they are the part of the puzzle that would show the whole thing as obvious dazzling.

i don't want people to take their religion or their belief. i know that many people need it to hold on to something.
and as long as they don't try to force anyone else to believe it or see it as a dogma for everyone, it doesn't make them worse people.

Paul doesn't want to "understand" anything.

It seems this thread was just created so Paul Markham could belittle religious folks :2 cents:

Yep, he's a bit of a wanker.

Another humorous claim of Islam. ... Something that I've heard time and time again from people who know nothing about the Judeo Christian beliefs and have not read the Torah or Old Testament.

Even better is "Gods promise" according to mohammed that the Quran is better... because THIS TIME, Gods word won't be altered because God will protect it... because mohammed said so. After all,,... you know, God couldn't protect the Torah or Old Testament for some reason and allowed it to be altered apparently. I mean, it was after all, the word of God and somehow this all powerful, omnipotent being who created time itself was on a mission to get everyone to praise him and worship him and spread his word (usually for some reason, through reluctant, illiterate and uneducated goat herder) .... but God couldn't just produce a book or tablets or anything himself for all to see and read and God couldn't stop either previous books for being "altered". Then of course mohammed proclaims the Quran (a book which is literally 1/2 about how to murder, enslave and prosecute non believers) to be "the perfect book and unaltered word of God". After all, nothing screams "loving, merciful and forgiving" like marching 700 people out to a ditch and cutting their heads off.

Even funnier is that you guys have absolutely no clue what your own religion is even based on as you've spent ZERO TIME studying the other 2 Abrahamic religions, ...you've just been told time and time again that a delusional pedophile warlord who got a lot wrong in his 1/2 assed references to Judeo Christian stories and the earlier so called "prophets" and then randomly proclaimed everyone else wrong, not him.... cause "God said so". You know, because God said so, to.... you guessed it, mohammed... and we know this cause.... mohammed said so.

And in that, you have the circular logic which is the fundamental basis of Islam.

I am the messenger of God because God said so...
The Quran is Gods word because I say so...
If you have any questions, refer to rule number 1, or risk getting your head sawed off.

"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith, I am nothing."
"Oh," says man, "but the Babel fish is a dead give-away, isn't it? It proves You exist, and so therefore You don't."
"Oh, I hadn't thought of that," says God, who promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
"Ah, that was easy," says man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white, and gets killed on the next zebra crossing.

(C) Douglas Adams

BTW... to me, all religions are a product of evolutionary biology and evolution. Religions on the whole serve a vital purpose, though that need is of course fading rapidly in the last 100 years or so.

There is a lot about our brain and how it works that causes beliefs such as these. This is an extremely complex discussion but The Biology of Belief is one of many great books on the subject. Religion is wired into our brains just as appreciation of aesthetic beauty, appreciation of music, appreciation of dancing / tendency to dance etc. And to those who claim they aren't religious, you'll find countless firmly held beliefs in their lives which are no more or less rational and whose minds are not easier to change. Ultimately it's a discussion about personal identity, not "reason" and "logic".

Religions are ALL the same at their core. Moral laws, actual laws, how to handle food to mitigate disease, how to maintain good hygiene to mitigate disease, how to handle dead bodies to mitigate disease, how to interact and treat each other as a group, how to fight wars, and ritual and group activities which inspire greater loyalty to the group, inspiring those who fight to fight with more ferocity and less fear etc etc etc.

We are of the VERY FEW truly cooperative species who will cooperate outside of kin altruism. One unrelated primate will not work with another primate for them to save themselves and their offspring. To quote someone else, we are "90% chimpanzee, 10% bee"... meaning we are highly individualistic and pursue selfish goals most of the time but we also tend to fall in with the group when the survival of individuals is at risk.

With the advent of agriculture and larger and larger settlements, came 1000s of new religions, all of which, almost without exception provides the foundations for improved cooperation in larger groups of people in larger and larger cities... we went from bands of 10-20-30 hunter gatherers to 1000s living in tightly closed spaces. cooperation as a group, and those groups who cooperate best, enhances greatly, individual chances of survival.

A simple fact is that people treat each other better and get along better (on the whole) when they believe that they are both being watched 24/7 and believe they will ultimately answer for everything they do and say.

You can't believe in evolution and deny that any species sheds what doesn't work and keeps what works. Religion has existed since the dawn of man. That's not an accident.... it is an essential part of a small groups ability to survive and thrive.

As a species, we are at a crossroads. The millions of years old rules of survival have been tossed out the window in just a couple centuries. Societies are breaking down. Marriages are breaking down. Family values are breaking down. Even male and female identities are breaking down. Even the very idea of genders is now being blurred. Who knows what the future holds for any religion,... the simple fact is that they are dying. There will always be people who believe in "something else" or "a higher power" in their quest for meaning and understanding as its in our genes. But if it wasn't for the fact that certain populations were pumping out shittons more children and then forcing them into religion, it would mostly fade away.

One indisputable truth about mythology in cultures is that the harder their life is, the more they fall back on mythology. The safer they are from attack, the safer they are from starving, the safer they are from disease, the more abundance of food there is, the more mythology starts to fade and play an increasingly diminished role in any society. It's not a coincidence that Islam dominates the worlds harshest environments and most miserable places to live.. it is what generally gives them purpose and meaning and helps to ensure they can more or less live peacefully together without worry about a neighbor fucking your wife, killing you for food, taking your property etc.

The movie Exodus touches on this topic expertly. 10s of 1000s of restless people who had escaped Ramses were all grouped together asking "now what". Some were clearly going to start fighting for power. Cliques would start to form. Tribes within tribes would start to form and in almost no time, they'd be fighting each other.

Moses then ducks out of sight and comes back with the 10 Commandments - What "God" said. Don't kill. Don't steal. Don't fuck your neighbors wife" etc etc etc. A basic legal framework to start to shut these behaviors down and help them coexist and operate more effectively as a large group. In that situation, is it relevant whether or not there is a God? whether the Commandments are really from "God" or is the very point that they multiplied their chances of survival a 100 fold through agreeing to this simple belief?

Does it even matter?

I guess you missed the part where I spent 10 years in Catholic school, that also had Jews... And we all got along and had to learn Christianity to pass.

Trust me bro, I know a lot more than you (as proven by me destroying every one of your walls of deflective texts) and you have NO IDEA what you're babbling about.

You're an islamophobe. Which is ok. That's your right.

:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

You all just got theologically trolled . . .

:1orglaugh

No, you've just randomly proclaimed yourself "winner" and me an "islamophobe" without any debate or being able to refute anything i've said whatsoever... just as before that you randomly proclaimed yourself "winner" and me a "racist" while failing to explain either.

you are 100% full of shit.

i'm not afraid of islam... i'm just honest with myself about what it is and what it demands of its followers, who actively murders men, women and children in crowded public places and even mosques and which book they use to justify it.. and with regards to that book, I am honest about who was telling the story


you're just a feeble minded asshole who has nothing to say other than "you're racist" and "you're an islamophobe" because you're not smart enough to actually argue a point without getting smashed.

you cannot argue at all against the facts that mohammed was a rapist, a liar, a murderer, a thief, a warlord, a slave merchant and a child rapist. in fact, there are many out there offering substantial rewards if you can refute those facts.

"We're all Gods children! God is all loving and all merciful and all forgiving and all compassionate... oh, speaking of which, I just bought 3 of Gods children at the Medina slave market the other day"

Uh huh......

At least the devout Muslims in Saudi Arabia finally outlawed slavery..... in the 1940s.

Ok I'll help you understand.

I was always anti religious all my life.. Pretty hardcore anti religious...

Then something happened in my life where I needed something to happen that was impossible for me to make happen through my own means...

so I just prayed for it... for a while..

and it happened... coincidence? maybe... But all I know is that I prayed for a very specific thing that was out of my control... and I got it.

so at that point.. I chose to believe.. Not hurting me any to believe..

But it might be hurting you if you don't. :winkwink:

curious , which religion you were born into ? :winkwink:

Muhammad was human. He made MANY mistakes. Quran doesn't say do as Muhmmad did, Quran says do what God says. There is no quranic verse you can point to that say "rape, kill, etc". All you can. Do is point to "he say she say" secondary sources proven in the Islamic world to be full of fraudlent statements and to be approached with caution. Those are called hadiths, and different sects of Islamic has different sets of Hadith collections, etc. They are just stories.

-The official Islamic punishment for rape is death

-Lying is prohibited in islam

-the punishment for stealing in Islam is getting your hand cut off

-you guys equate slavery in Islam to that barbaric shit authorized in Christianity. Reality is, Islamic slavery is the equivalent of mordern prisoners. Every country has prisoners lol. Sauce: https://islamqa.info/en/answers/94840/islam-and-slavery

-as far as being a warlard, what are you? A hippy now?

-as far as the fucking the kids thing, all 3 abrahamic religions allow it. Don't make me post the Bible verses. I'm trying to be civil lol. Difference is Islam says "follow the law of the land you live in". If it's 18 where you live, it is against Islam to break that law. Not for christians and such tho, who make up the vast majority of child molesters on the planet.

...etc, etc.

Just admit, you're an islamophobe. BTW, it is Haram for me to deal with pork (squealers) so, I ask Allah for forgiveness and I'm out :-)

all religions are "just stories" you brainless twit. You are aware that the books were written by men right? God for some reason didn't bother to create a publishing house and just left it all up to illiterate, uneducated goat herders to figure out.

Strange way to "spread a message" of such vital importance... 14 to 30 centuries later 3 Abrahamic religions are still trying. God created the earth in 7 days but couldn't send a simple message to more than one person at a time, more than a dozen times in 1400-3000 years. Maybe God is just shy? But then again, he doesn't mind burning entire cities to the ground or killing every man woman and child in a city to make a point. So many odd contradictions.... then punishing those who never heard the message to begin with.

in Islam, both the Quran and "these stories" are used to justify mass murder, killing innocent women and children, slave trades, sex slaves, child brides, pedophilia, lying and cheating etc etc etc.

And not that it matters because you're just going to talk in circles... I don't defend any religion and their heinous past. I don't defend Christianity. That's all you and the typical irrelevant "whataboutism" response which is all you're left with.
'
What one religion did has absolutely nothing to do with excusing and summarily dismissing the obviously heinous acts of another.

Just the fact that Islam could condone slavery and modern Muslims dismiss it cause "everyone was doing it" should be a red light to any person with common sense. At least Christianity had the fucking sense to create a new "messiah" and an updated message which corrected a lot of this stupidity and obvious logical contradictions. Islam came along and doubled down on the fire and brimstone, eye for an eye, God is a vengeful God ,... based on "revelations" which mostly served to enrich mohammed and his inner circle.

For anybody truely interested in the Quran tho ,whether interested in real Islam or just want to actually know what they're talking about when debating against a Muslim, here's some cool shit you'll find out:

-the Quran accurately describes the speed of light

-accurately describes the blurred vision and nausia of space travel

-accurately describes the missing pieces of the Bible only recently discovered

-accurately describes the known scientific age of the universe

-accurately describes human embryos and how they form

-accurately describes the different parts of the human brain and their function

-accurately describes evolution, what the sun is made of, atoms, plantary orbits, tectonic plates, etc etc etc.... I can go on forever.

This is 1400 years ago. What islamophobes called Muslims crazy for, all turned out to be scientifically proven lol.

That's something to think about.

To help us give you a better answer, what is your exact race/ethnicity so we can get a better understanding of what angle your are coming from for this thread.

Race/Ethnicity Example - Italian, french, German, Chinese, Israeli, Spanish, British - by descent

:1orglaugh

Roman Catholic.

I personally am religious because I am a god of my own reality you feel me

Thoughts you project, manifest into reality because humans can bend spoons and don't even realize it.

Agreed. So why do you want more of these people to mix in our community? After all you so multiculturalism works.



I saked if Buddhists are currently killing people in Myanmar. You then troll us with great reasons why they are killing. Are you denying the fact I gave or givingus the reasons and agreeing with me?

https://www.google.com/search?ei=t7J...iz.BO1xCnSIaZk

This will show my original statement is correct.

I prefer to read the Quran for my views on what it says.

Clearly the views of primitive Man.

Also this is interesting.

So why laws on blasphemy because people reach different conclusions to Muslims?

Why did it take so many tries for an omnipotent being to create Homo Sapiens?

Why were Homo Sapiens created so long after the creation of the Earth, when dinosaurs evolved into birds, sharks, crocodiles and other creatures have been on Earth for 100s of millions years?

https://www.islamicity.org/8028/the-...lahs-creation/

""...(Such is) the artistry of Allah, Who disposes of all things in perfect order."

Evolution proves that perfect order is not the way evolution works.

pauls ability to learn anything is demonstrated by his photography...dude failed at pressing a button :1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh :1orglaugh:1orglaugh

paul should open a youtube channel for entertainment..."1 minute alzheimers expert on any subject"...you give him a complex subject he knows shit about (any subject really) and he googles for an answer and gets confused :1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

paul has the magic ability to skip decades of research other scholars spend on a specific subject and just "google it" :1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

Explain why god allowed so many Humans to exist before exposing himself?



And why he needed so many tries at getting it right.







Surely this thows out the window the idea of creation by ""...(Such is) the artistry of Allah, Who disposes of all things in perfect order." And I've only included the Humanoid species, the examples across the animal kingdom are so many Evolution can't be denied.

Why are you even here Paul? What purpose do you serve on this forum?