There will be the overseas processors trying to dodge the rules, and that's already happening. I'm sure a lot of people will go with them until Visa and MC chase those operations down.

Someone on this board (I forget who) predicted that MC/Visa will eventually only approve processors where MC/Visa completely control the billing interfaces and such, leaving no discretion for third parties.

I think that's a good possibility down the road.

You know what? It's crazy for me to even bother with a comment. Especially when I haven't read the rest of your nonsense, nor will I since by the time I get home from LA tomorrow it will be gone. And by the time I go to LA in a couple hours, no one will care.

But at the end of the day, it's a fuck all shame that I have to come out and call you stupid.

I'm just not as big of a person as I thought.

Such is life.

OK, I take it back. I did read this thread from the bottom up. Then I got to this post and I realized I was right to call you stupid. Stupid. Stupid of me to bother reading the rest of your drivel.

So I'm not.

Have a nice evening.

If I was an Epoch webmaster I would only want to know the following...

<b>
Have the fines been paid in full ?
Have the chargeback generating sites been offloaded ?
</b>





Unless I was satisfied with the answers, as a businessman I would have to presume this is going the same way as WSB. There are a lot of horrible similarities.

Kimmy: I have three words for you.

CASH FLOW PROBLEMS

That's the bottom line. Everything else is bullshit.

It's nice that you're still a loyal cheerleader, but maybe you should be looking for another job.

I hope for your sake that Epoch and Epassporte are truly seperate entities ....

At least in the cash flow department.

It might be "stupid" to count on these people for your future.

Call me what you like but I don't work for, much less blindly defend a company that has cash flow problems.

THAT would be stupid.

The lawsuit says MC is fining Epoch $2,500 per day and that MC is demanding that they completely restructure their business ...

Namely, host all of the websites that they process for which, I assume, would be impossible.

So, even though Epoch says they are in compliance, apparently MC doesn't agree -- which is what this most recent fine and, consequently, lawsuit is about.

The thing I dont understand if Visa currently is the card of choice on the net as we were told when it was time to pay the $750. Why dont these processors stop processing Mastercard, if its going to ruin them ? Also start pushing discover signups, have a pop up on the site" ever think of getting a discover card "and it goes to the discover website.

So basically Epoch have been in violation, and MC alledge Epoch are still in violation. I would guess that means Epoch absolutely has to win this lawsuit.

I'm am just guessing here, and could be completely and totally wrong. But obviously Epoch will have known about this for some time. I wonder if Epassporte is their 'get out of jail' card for when Epoch goes under ? Never hurts to hedge your bets...

The problem is revenue.

The lawsuit says that 40 percent of Epoch's revenue comes from MC.

So, if they lose MC, that's a big drop in revenue and would potentially cause more financial problems.

It's probably not as big of a problem for a company like Intercept/Ibill, which has a ton of revenue from other non-adult divisions.

But it's apparently more difficult for a company like Epoch.

Yeah, according to the lawsuit, Epoch's problems with MC go back to 2001. So it's been an ongoing problem for a couple of years.

I agree that they're probably hedging their bets with Epassporte. Although if Epoch goes under, they may have some trouble selling Epassporte.

When Epoch had financial problems about three years ago, it took them a long time to recover and rebuild their reputation with webmasters. I assume the same problem would apply in this situation.

Chris, thanks for the update, It's nice when a company keeps it's clients and everyone UPDATED on things going on. Class act and will continue to get our biz.

chris(pornoman) if you have some time, ICQ me or email dannyh at simplecom.net got something you might be interested in:)

well, we don't use epoch presently---but i am impressed with this no nonsense approach in dealing with their webmasters. an upfront approach when dealing with money issues is always best.

i like their style, and IF they prevail against MC we should all kiss their feet.

but if they don't ?

Wow. All bow to the almighty nevermind.

Apparently she can predict the future and knows more about billing than even those who actually do it.

You remind me of an every idiot who likes to play smart cause it makes them feel good about themselves.... I SWEAR THE EARTH IS FLAT!!!

Why dont you stop making predictions?

Or is this your genious husband who was in the biz in 96 that's giving you all this inside info? hahahaha

Hooper,

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Nevermind, why don't you give us some insight into you experience as a webmaster in the adult business or explain to us lowly beings your background in credit card processing. You are extremely opinionated yet for all we know you could be working in the local Burger King. Unless you have run adult websites, had to deal with members trying to rip you off. Processors like Ibill doing their best to damage webmasters profits or servers that have to run 24/7 without so much as 5 mins down time then really your comments mean little. Lets hear your experience of this industry ?

Epoch are without doubt the best processing company i have had the pleasure of dealing with, they are standing up for the webmaster and themselves and as far as i can see are the only ones doing so. Mastercard and Visa are imposing unfair trading practices on the adult industry as a whole, not just Epoch but all online processors a 1% chargeback rate is both ridiculous and unfair when compared to other industries that have 5% or more and do not face this sort of restrictive practice.

Nevermind you obviously have some sort of resentment to the adult industry and your biased against it is very plain to see, you jump at any chance to put it down and are the voice of doom and gloom every time a tit bit of news is released. Unless you can openly tell us here at GFY what your involvement is in the adult industry i for one will consider you posts the ravings of some ill informed person who has some private vendetta against sex on the internet and treat you posts with the disdain they deserve.


Cris, Clay, Rand, Amparo you are great people thank you for taking a professional stand on these issues and thank you for keeping us the webmasters informed, i am behind you 100%

Cindy xx

OK, here's a natural extension to this thread. Personally I hope Epoch will prevail but the very fact MC/VISA have a lock on our money as well as the internet, and MC/VISA isn't being looked at askance by the FTC for monopoly violations, says something about the chances of success, I'm afraid.

IBill/Intercept does not have seem to have deep pockets. They can't even pay us, and as I understand it they're up to their eyeballs in debt and other problems, caused in part because of the WorldCom fiasco, to the point where we've noticed transactions that took place *after* the resolution of it are still unpaid. 85% of their processing is adult. They can't chuck it without stripping their entire operation down to almost nothing, and as it stands now they apparently have trouble keeping their statistics server online.

So far, at least two IPSPs I know of have gone under, and Dutch Billing just introduced immediate new rules that make it pretty much unworkable to do business with them.

What to do? It seems clear that as a minimum the IPSPs will have to completely restructure or die, and perhaps even VISA/MC will not be an option for adult merchants in the future. We got our own merchant account just for this reason but there seem to be concerns there as well for the future given the earthquakes that keep coming, starting with the VISA registration fees last year.

There are no other options that look trustworthy. Anyone have any ideas? Anyone more than just a little nervous at the way things are proceeding in general for payment solutions?

-doug

cmon Cindy. You must be either a paid iBill basher or on the epoch payroll.

Which is it?

Wrong on both counts i am just a lowly webmaster working to earn a crust just like most webmasters here. But i truly believe Epoch are a fantastic company and that Ibill and my past experience with them sucks the big one.

I also praise Bot Buster.com openly on GFY i suppose i work for them as well ?

Cindy xx

bump

a hunid

[QUOTE]Originally posted by nevermind
[B]

Actually, I agree.

But when people have screwed me in business, I go for blood with everything I've got.

*******************************************

I'm really behind on my reading today, so I may have to post again, but I agree with Nevermind on the above. And when I find out how you are, I am going to go after you for defamation and slander.

Your facts are for shit and your motives are becoming more clear every day.

More later, maybe...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chris Mallick
[B]:drinkup

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chris Mallick
[B]You think a judge is really going to give a shit that someone was posting negative things about Epoch on an adult message board?

Maybe.

Having a few of our own merchant accounts for non-adult internet stuff, I can confirm that VISA/MC and their issuing banks have gotten pretty ridiculous. Anyone who has applied for a domestic account with any online business in the last year has probably been through what I have, their definition of 'high-risk' has expanded to include a lot of things.

As 'nevermind' seems to espouse, VISA/MC have the right to 'protect' their customers. They could easily do so by spending some of their trillions in revenue each year to upgrade and update their networks, add security features that deter fraud, and provide internet merchants with a standard platform to process transactions. Instead they choose to levy fines. They have had years to adapt to the widespread fraud online, but they have yet to come up with even a workable solution (Verified by VISA is 'optional' for merchants). Instead they advertise their 'zero liability' (a.k.a. a license for law-abiding citizens to commit online fraud) and place all the weight of the problem on the backs of merchants.

VISA/MC prefer to bully the merchants around, let's hope Walmart Sears et al. can put a dent in there. I've rambled enough, having been on the fine/penalty end of things I can say it's ridiculous, the cost of doing business is bad enough without dealing with arbitrary bullshit.

But yes, I do think companies like Epoch should stop processing for a lot of the people they do. They need to put their feet down and stamp out a lot of the shady practices they let their 'clients' get away with in the name of the dollar. Those surfers will still sign up for porn sites, they'll just do it at reputable places and everyone will be happy.

- Titus

Bravo Titus :) Thats where most of these problems have come from.
Two more thoughts been reading this thread too. First to the person who spoke about ibill not having deep pockets, ibill probably has the deepest pockets of them all (thats why you dont see them on here, when you have that much money this is very petty stuff)
Secondly I understand Chris ,this faceless person is annoying you but to issue threats of suing because" you said bad things so I am coming after you "it is beneath a CEO like yourself, makes your company look like its two guys in a basement and its creates the doubt maybe she speaks the truth. You're better than that :) .

if you just got fucked for a few mil, you'd have cashflow problems too, wouldnt ya?

they are s steadfast company that is here to stay. i have been in their offices in marina del ray, toured the NOC, saw the security measures they take, the call center, the whole schpiel, they were expanding when i was there too... they've got my seal of approval and i use them as the primary processor on all of my ventures....

rock on chris!

First off...Paycoms tag line of being ROCK SOLID is not a frabrication but a true to life statement about their company. THEY ARE ROCK SOLID.

Some of the webmasters in this thread are missing the bigger picture; the outcome of this claim will benefit all webmasters as a whole whether or not they process adult or non adult and whether or not they process with Paycom.

This is a big step in the right direction and the fact that they may be asking certain webmasters for a little breathing room is a small price to pay for larger checks and checks in general in the future.

Its not about today, its about being here tomorrow and for many years to come.

Go get em Chris!

The Faceless Person.

One whom finds enjoyment on posting wrongful information about reputable sponsors, processors, and others cowardly.. By doing this, they hope to boost your own ego and gain respect from their peers.

On a business built on reputation, they have no regard for the damage that is caused by false allegations.

False claims and slander is taken VERY seriously.

If you want to take something publicly, I would suggest you make your information know.

:2 cents:


BTW.. who are you nevermind?

I am a honest adult webmaster. I don't abuse free trials. I don't have misleading tours. I don't use shock tactics on my web pages. I have absolutely no trouble keeping my chargebacks AND refunds below 1%. Well below.

Am I happy that a certain section of the adult industry, both webmasters and IPSP's, have caused the card companies to introduce more administration and charges for me because certain webmasters & IPSP's can't control their chargebacks ?

Fuck No. No one should be.

Fuck anyone who is unable to control their chargebacks. You have caused these problems. <b>You ARE the problem</b>

'Benefit other webmasters' Give me a break.

The best quote in this thread....

they will win.. visa/mc hasn't done shit in years and years to prevent fraud.. the internet is growing faster then anything else and they are just sitting on their ass collecting their money.. watching everyone like hawks like a referee and slapping on penalties..

"this person said he didn't sign up.. it was a family member.. slap 500$ penalty"

the only one without these stupid fines is discover.. and it is becuase they can't monopoly anybody around becuase they aren't big enough.. im SURE they would LOVE to have a 1% penalty and start fining people up the ass.. but they can't .. they aren't needed enough and would be dropped quicker then fuck

Maybe thats what we should do , help build discover card membership. Offer discover card discounts with a link beside it dont have discover ? click here and it sends them to their site. Its gets better they have affiliate program, you get $25 for every approved app. Since visa and mc are getting foggy we got to do something, I think if we were responsible for dramatically increasing discover card memberships. They would work much more closely with us. It pays to Discover :)

It's a shame IPSP's don't allow different rates to be charged for different cards. I would happily encourage people to use Discover by charging 10-20% less or something.

Mind you, I'm pretty sure the card companies have it in their contracts that this can't be done.

You are only partly correct in that some webmasters have cause some serious issues promoting sites with little or no content, misleading tours, price switching, failure to stop rebills when requested etc.etc. But my belief, at least in the last year or so is that the credit card companies and some online processor are as much if not more to blame. For example Mastercard Visa have it within their power to investigate fraudulent use by cardholders on the web. On the sites we run and the sponsors we work with we have seen member ship fraud increase 4 fold in the last 18 months, why because credit card companies allow it to happen. Its far easier and more profitable to set stupid chargeback percentages so that all the card company dose is sit on its fat ass and rake in the profits, after all managing the five or six main online processors is far less work than tackling the real cause of this problem.

As i stated above there are some webmasters that are very much to blame for some of this mess, some billing companies should also take part of the blame for their arbitrary refund policy's lack of communication with its clients and an attitude of i could care less as long as i have deep pockets to fall back on.

How can we solve this problem, it isn't easy, CC companies will have to re think their methods and policy's and start communicating its rules to everyone in writing so their is no room for misunderstanding and mistakes. Online processors will have to close down sites with excessive chargebacks, dubious trading practices, illegal content and misleading tours. Webmasters need to be kept informed about everything to do with their sites, if members are unable to access tell the webmaster don't just refund the members fees and hope it will go away. This doesn't solve the problem just masks it for an hour or two. From my stand point i am surprised that after 7 plus years on the web processing $$$ is still extremely crude Adult entertainment is still probably the largest money making venture online and it could be good for all concerned if they just acted in a more unified way and jointly solve this present crisis so that we could all get back to the job at hand , making money ?


Cindy xx

What you guys are really pissed about is that I actually read the lawsuit, and have been pointing out the facts as outlined in that lawsuit.

If you don't like someone pointing out the details Chris --- and you were expecting some blind cheerleading mantra, well --- you probably shouldn't have posted it in the first place.

PornDollar, you obviously haven't read the lawsuit. It might help if you did.

http://www.paycom.net/mastercard/lawsuit.pdf

And BTW Chris, You might want to consult a lawyer on the actual legal definition of slander. You don't even come close with your ridiculous threats.

You can't "slander" someone if you base your opinions on facts, which is exactly what I've done.

I could go through all of the page citations again, but I've already done that on other threads.

Are you now disputing the following facts as outlined in the lawsuit?

* Epoch violated MC's 1 percent chargeback rule for eight months in 2001-2002, a good year and a half after MC implemented the 1 percent rule.

* Epoch says there was other data showing chargeback violations after that, but Epoch says it was reported to MC in error.

* MC says Epoch has violated other rules by issuing too many refunds "in lieu" of chargebacks.

* MC has imposed substantial punitive fines, and is currently fining Epoch $2,500 a day --- demanding they restructure their entire business, or they will cut them off.

* MC accounts for 40 percent of Epoch's revenues, so if MC cuts them off, it could worsen the above mentioned cash flow problem.

Where are the false allegations and claims?

I've expressed opinions based upon the above mentioned facts, as is my right.

If you don't like it, hike it.

:321GFY

This is EXACTLY where I am coming from on this issue.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Hell NO

Got that email... I wasn't alarmed at all. In fact, I felt sort of warm and fuzzy to know that I'm dealing with a group of folks professional enough to inform me of bad news.

Ugh. Fucking outrageous.