i don't know fuck all compared to brad but one definate downside to partnerships now is that if they go over the CB rate too much and are shut down, there go all the rebills. its not fun to start all over. i haven't used partnership proggies in years but im gonna give some a try now, just gotta choose wisely i guess.

Exactly. This is good for "indy" sites (aka one-site operations). I run one at (true) 50% partnership, and my affiliates make, on average, $27.50 per sign-up. Suddenly VERY competitive. And most of us indy sites have cb ratios well below 1% now so it business as usual.

I'm surprised frankly to hear that the big programs can't maintain $30 payouts AND a 1% cb. There's still all sorts of advantages that the big programs have over the indy sites that have no effect on cb ratios.

Maybe some of the big programs will opt for partnership over reducing pps payouts?

On the other hand, partnership programs don't use the same scam tactics to remain profitable, so the chances of a revshare program getting shut down is much smaller.

Yup choose wisely by picking up someone that as been doing it for a long time without shutting down... EVER !!!:2 cents:

Good point... But with these rules I bet we'll see a few PPS get shut down too.

Hey there Anna_O you sexy swede :)

I don't know about PPS getting shut down, there's alot of things even small site owners can do to lower cb%'s....honest advertising, good customer service and of course proactive fraud control all play a big role in reducing cb's.

Well there goes the PPC game. There's no way I can maintain a worthwhile ROI with payouts like that. I think we'll see this 1% chargeback issue effect mainstream programs like google adwords.

change is good

I agree - although it's possible that some bidders will drop out and we'll see bids settle to a lower level. Maybe this will be the motivation to mine for those ultra-obscure keyphrases too.

I never ran a paysite and don't know the "secrets" to making money off having one but I do have some questions. Now don't jump down my throat, I think they are very fair questions to ask.

If the webmasters are taking a $10 per sign up cut in their pay, are these paysite operators also getting that $10 (average) cut in each signup. What I mean is are they still getting richer by the day while us webmasters are taking a cut in our pay?

Also I can't swallow the idea that joe surfer looks at his credit card statement and sees $39.99/month and says "FUCK THIS I'M CHARGING BACK" But a charge of $29.99 is okay and he won't charge it back. If he got scammed into it, he'd charge back no matter what the amount was wouldn't he?

After reading the post about the $39.99/month PLUS the $30/month and $40/month cross sell "SCAM" which is what it is if the boxes are already checked. No wonder so many ppl charge back. Why would somone pay $110/month for porn which they were tricked into in the first place?

Someone commented that it's mostly fraudulent webmasters that cause the chargebacks, won't they still do it if it's only $29.99/month to join the site as opposed to $39.99? So the change in the pricing for the site in general makes no sense to me.

Now that some of the bigger programs announced their $10 less per signup, I think others will just go with this figure even if they could carry on their biz with only cutting $5 per signup but now they know they "CAN" cut $10 per signup because others are.

Just some questions I've been thinking about again, do NOT jump down my throat, I'm just looking for a discussion on this to enlighten me as well as others that probably don't get "the paysite game"


Anyone have any comments on what kind of traffic usually causes the most chargebacks? Is tgp traffic worse for chargebacks than avs sites etc?

not really just bids are going to have to be lower, and engines that have min bids are going to have lower then

Yea I'm sure google or overture will lower bids because a few porn sites are lowering their webmaster payouts...Cum'on Think Mc'Fly.
:ugone2far

Good questions

And why are you changing next week if the visa change is effective october 1st?

Boy oh boy, this will be an interesting fall.

DH

because cb's do not show up for months after the initial charge.

Do you always troll?

Someone posts valued info and you post a smart ass reply.

Way to go sport, you're doing your job :thumbsup

CPC is coming back baby.

Instead of repeating what has already been said. I'll be quick & concise.

Ditto. It's time that payouts went down.

It's about damn time. You guys have been scamming surfers for years. It's time for it to end. Every big company treats the surfer like the enemy. "Fuck them get their money." What type of way is that to treat your clients? Had you treated your clients with respect and honestly we'd all be making lots more for many years to come. Instead those few pricks are cashing out and leaving us to deal with their mess. Thanks!

What's funny is that most program owners have been wanting to make changes like these for a long time now.....lower prices, lower payouts, less cross sales/upsales....the problem was if they did it they'd lose their webmaster base to another program.

Now VISA just gave everyone a good reason to do it, and the changes can be made now because EVERYONE has to make them.

100...1

Let's go back in time
http://www.gofuckyourself.com/showth...pagen umber=2
Read down where Mr Fantasyman himself said


I guess my facts were right after all Ron.
Free trials are bad for this industry.
Cross sales are bad for this industry.
Pay per signup programs are bad for this industry.

Nobdoy else will say but I will. CyberErotica, ARS, CEN, Silvercash and others have been running scams and questionable business practises for the past 6 years. They've done it to keep up and keep paying the top dollar to their partners. It was a shitty business model to begin with. All marketing no substance. Not one of these companies has a site worth what they charge. That's why we are all screwed right now.

Thanks Guys :thumbsup Great Job!

Looks like Ron still disagrees with you Shap
http://www.gofuckyourself.com/showth...hreadid=151604

Shap, before you open your yap with false info pleae read this post, I still say the same thing!!

Well I think some of the programs should explain why the affiliate payouts being so high was a problem for their business model. I think webmasters are starting to get the wrong idea... that the programs have to reduce the join price to keep under the cb ratio and the programs are just downloading the cut to the webmasters. Thats not the reason that affiliate payouts are changing.

Would some of the big programs that posted here please do a good job of explaining this proper (I wont put words in their mouths)

As well not one person mentioned that a paysite has the DUTY to keep members and make em happy. I firmly believe that a program with more then 25 sites cant POSSIBLY have different members areas in each. I have been in lots of the biggies and each is just a clone of the next with the same big content (the important stuff like movies is just the same plug ins in all the sites) and you cant tell me that a surfer dude that signs up for a site in the same system (well fuck the members areas are so similar across the board) that they dont get pissed off and decide to charge back?

This has happened in the for women area in one program months back... so many chargebacks that it made it impossible to pay the pay per sign up model. They got inside the members areas and all but a small area was different... obviously a surfer is goign to feel pissed off.

The entire industry (except for a few select small niche sites) is based on GET THEM IN THE DOOR and hope they stay more then one month and throw the kitchen sink at them. No pride in providing the niche they want... no pride in providing unique sites. No pride in the members areas.

Members areas have to be worth it for people to say okay I had enough but it was worth my time.

and no charge backs

I challenge the big guys who have posted here to talk about their members areas too. 100+ sites? you cant possibly have unique sites and avoid surfer dude from getting into more then one of them and being pissed.

It's funny. You don't see
Scoreland changing their payouts or tours.
Your don't see Danni Ashe worrying about anything?
How about ATK? No worries there.
Karups? No worries.
Denys? No worries.

Notice the trend? It's called Q-U-A-L-I-T-Y. Maybe you guys should look it up. Stop worrying about you damn payouts. Spend a few months beefing up your generic sites and add some quality. Treat your clients with respect. Maybe then you wouldn't be on a watch list. I'm amazed people are congratulating Marc De for making a post. HAHAHAHAH ARS Is the number 1 enemy to the industry at large. They've got ibill in a HUGE hole. They are putting epoch in that same hole, which is why they won't allow ibill clients. What is there to congratulate? You guys can stop the ass kissing now, you are kissing the wrong top dog.

I've got no beef with ARS or the others. This is just the damn truth. Anybody who doesn't believe me, read over the new Epoch restrictions. NO Free Trials, LOWER Cross Sells, and encouraging NO PPS programs. It's time people open their eyes and treat this industry like a fuckin business.

Sure Ron. Besides, I thought you didn't own CE anymore and your contract is almost up. So you've got nothing to worry about what I post. If they still have free trials come Dec 31st then i'll shut my yap. My guess is CE will put jettis out of business or stop free trials before then.

Lets not just sit around and point fingers and sponsor programs as being the evil that has caused all of this. Do you know how many chargebacks are webmaster fraud and consumer fraud?

There were companies with VERY Shady business practices but to lump every single PPS sponsor together as being scam artists is ridiculous.

The fact is this industry HAS needed this change. Lenny2 you are right. This simply helped force a model change that is very badly needed. Unfortunately this is but a minor change of the still larger change that must take place. At least it is a step in the right direction.

Competition drove this industry where it is. Webmasters wanting more and more per sign up, webmaster programs pushing and pushing and trying to do all they could to achieve profitability while paying more and more. It was a self destructive situation that will hopefully begin to repair itself.

Oh, good point

How does this affect the BYOT style programs? One would expect that they would be a prime target for chargebacks, considering that most of the tours are pretty much 100% lies.

shap - don't talk unless you know what you are talking about. If you have no beef with me than don't post your assumptions that we put ibill in a crunch and are putting Epoch there as well.

The facts are we HELP ibill and it was their own fault they did what they did with a nameless other client. Also we don't do business with Epoch so how exactly are we doing the same to them.

Stop trying to point the finger at the big bad sponsor programs. I can appreciate you spiel on quality. There is some truth to that but there is also truth in saying some of the larger companies do have some nice members areas with LOADS of content.

This business is about pushing traffic and making money from that traffic. Its about the mouse trap - quality and quantity must ride a fine line :) Last time I checked I (and many others) are in this business to make money, not to offer surfers with the greatest self gratifucating orgasm of their life. Nudity and sexual arousal is the name of the game - again I go back to my quality and quantity statement.

Great posts shap

Seen many of the member areas of pretty much all the big sponsors sites at some point. Shaking my head at all those who run multiple "niche" sites that either contain incredibly little or fuck all that corresponds with the niche. Many of'em are being re-done right now, I take it

With the trends of programs to host galleries, sites even avs sites now why do programs keep spending so much money on luring webmasters? Why the webmaster show costs? Why the board advertising? Why not hire freelancers and make all the sites you need? You control it all. Course you have no one to blame if it all goes wrong but heck atleast you control it all. No weak link as it seems to be implied here LOL

I do have affiliate programs but I am content with the select few that find me and are quality webmasters. We make a connection and we do very good business together. Its like having a commission sales person on staff vs. an affiliate program full of the newbies scammers and a few good webmasters.

are quickbuck going to lower payouts as well? i assume that you will lower the price you charge surfers if thats the case?

WOW. I guess thats macdonalds motto too... explains why I dispise the food there LMAO but heck the toys are good and that gets most families in the door. Lets forget the fact that you get what you wanted ... quick food... good service. I guess paysites dont need to actually entertain?

And hold on a second here... we were talking quality paysites... offering something different... NOT RIPING A NEW FUCKING ASSHOLE to anyone who thought by the advertising on the tour that there was something pretty cool inside the sites. No one said you had to wack off the surfer yourself.

But who gives a fuck what you thought last month... visa is telling you the new reality... hold that surfer hand in your members area or all the payout changes in the world will NOT help you keep chargebacks down. I am not talking about huge ass changes... just subtle things.

I think amateur sites are about to RULE!!!!!

Hey Marc. If you aren't using Epoch. Then sorry. I went to all petite and saw epoch there. My bad.

The industry pushed everybody to build the better mouse trap. To come up with the better scam. It's just a fact. The guys who got rich and had the biggest programs had some of the biggest scams. As a result the whole industry is blackballed right now. I worked for xpics. My partner worked for IEG. We saw first hand the rotten scams going on in this industry. We both left those companies and treated our surfers and members with respect in order to build long term relationships with them. We followed the ATK/Karups/Danni business model. Treat each member like a member, not like a credit card. To each their own. The only problem is the high transaction high risk clients put us all at risk. At risk from visa and at risk of our processor going out of business.

If you aren't one of the problems, then my bad. You've got nothing to worry about. However I find it hard to believe, you can say with a straight face, that ARS' chargeback rate (at ibill) has been under 2.5% all year long.

Shap, I'll agree that all of the sites you just mentioned are high quality sites.

BUT

None of them were paying $35 per trial signup either. Half of the sites you listed don't even offer trials, that makes it a totally different ballgame.

Pay per sign up attracts fraudulent webmasters and their fraudulent advertising which increases chargebacks.

Webmasters promoting partnerships have a vested interest in their surfers rebilling at the sites they join, so they tend to advertise them differently.

susanna - again, processors and sponsors alike (folks with volumes of data) will tell you that a majority of chargebacks are realated to webmaster and consumer fraud.

The biggest TRUE problem (that we can no solve) is the chargeback policy and procedures of the card associations. Unfortunately we have no control of that and can only work in our sphere of influence.

Playing the numbers game, you go with what proves to have less chargebacks. Those are, pay-for add ons (not freebies), no free trials, and a lower monthly price point.

I don't own or operate paysites, but I know that there is 24 / 7 customer service, online help desk, LOADS of content, and proper disclosure at all points for surfers experience at Global InterMedia's paysites. There isn't a whole lot more you can do than that.

I agree with Shap. Have you ever been inside an ARS site? That shit isn't worth $9.99 let alone $39.99.

It's all hype and no substance.

and here is what Marc De always answers this type of claim with:

"ARS doesn't own or run any of the sites it promotes"

Thats the biggest pile 'o crap excuse I've ever heard. As if Marc doesn't have the phone number for the folks at Global Intermedia on speed dial. I'm fairly sure they might have 5 minutes to listen to the guy that brings them 50,000 members a month.

I'm not surprised that ARS will have to lower its payouts because it's chargeback ratio is too high. If I was a surfer who joined an ARS site and forgot to cancel the trial, I'd chargeback too.

I'm not saying ARS didn't have a good money making business model, but I will agree that the big programs like ARS are a contributing factor into the Visa crackdown we're seeing now.