after following this thread and the related announcements as of late, and looking back to last oct/nov during the infamous 'the sky is falling and its VISA's fault' incident, i find one thing incredibly ironic... back when everyone was freaking out about VISA's "sponsored merchant" edict, most seemed to think that it was the small paysite operations that were being unfairly targeted and squeezed so badly... now w/ this latest commandment handed down from VISA, it seems the large programs and high-volume operations are in much worse danger then the mom/pop shops ever were..

This new development will clearly benefit small and medium sized independent niche sites. Webmasters will no longer be so quick to send traffic to the major sponsors because the $35-$45 carrot is going bye bye.

Everyone should just go to rev share only now. It'd be the smartest thing to do.

This industry is very resilient and filled with incredibly creative, bright, and innovative minds and expect to see lots of newly developed sponsor work arounds and marketing gimmicks in the months ahead to compete for your more valuable than ever traffic.

So it's about time to switch all your sponsors to % instead of PPSU....

shap - glad to feel like I'm not in your 'line of fire' so to speak :) In regards to my chargeback rate with ibill - a couple of things.

1.) We don't own or operate any paysites, other companies do that and are our clients for the sale of traffic

2.) We have to work WITH them to allow them to meet any guidelines and policies they may have (in how traffic is sent, etc...)

3.) It is iBill's job to manage chargeback rates as much as it is their clients.

I know that at any point of a transaction we are involved it there is ALWAYS ethical business practice and proper disclosure. We don't do business with shady people and won't be involved in shay business practices.

Lets just agree on one thing, this industry has done this to ITSELF. Sponsors, billing companies, webmasters, and even the customers have brought us where we are. Now it takes TRUE leaders to attempt to correct our misguided direction and bring us back to where we SHOULD be :)

I wish for a day when there are no trials period and its all about getting surfers to PAY for what they use...

Lenny,

I agree -- however i believe danni pays $30 per signup.

The problem is Pay Per Signup programs. I'm not saying these big guys are scammers intentionally. However, their whole business model is built around screwing someone over. Whether it's webmasters, surfers, processors, someone is getting fucked but one person not getting fucked is Visa. Epoch said it best, pps business model is not one they encourage. It's simple. It attracts the wrong people to do business with you. Open up a partnership program and stand behind your product. Dump free trials, dump trials, dump cross sales. Those are the people you want to do business with. They aren't scrambling, it's business as usual for them. The only exception, if they are like us, is the damage this will do to the processors. We aren't worried about our CB level. We are worried as to whether we will watch our processor go under.

Brown Bear - you eve send traffic to a pay per sign up program ? If so add yourself to the list of contributors and don't be so quick to point your finger.

BTW - just cuz you wouldn't want to get your rocks off to a Global site doesn't mean others won't. I bet you and I don't like the same exact music, movies, or food. I appreciate your opinion but that is all it is :)

Also, only 50,000 members / mo ? Better rework that assumption LOL

I agree

Also, I'd expect to see one or more of the large sponsors go under in the months ahead. When traffic is reduced to their sites, the cb ratios are going to look incredibly high as sales plummet.

Be very, very careful with your money if you're sending the bulk of your traffic to just one sponsor. I'd immediately spread your flow around to several so you're not as vulnerable to any single sponsor. The cash flow situation could get stressed for even some of the big players. Don't get left holding the bag.

KRL - I agree with you whole heartedly on innovative minds and new marketing schemes to get traffic. Don't think just because we are trying to correct a downward spiral doesn't mean we don't have some innovative stuff up our sleeves :) Hell our corp name is Innovative Ideas hehe

BTW - shap the same stuff you are criticizing the same stuff we are trying to STOP!!! So, show a little faith and see the good that is being attempted here. Visa has forced our hand, but it has also opened a window of opportunity for those true market leaders to try and stop things that perhaps never should have happened. I hope you understand where I'm coming from :)

Yup, I have sent traffic to PPS progs in the past, but I got out of that years ago and now I run multiple paysites where the chargeback rate is under 0.60% So I guess I was guilty then, but at least I saw the error of my ways and changed.

So 50,000 members a month is way off? Care to enlighten us with some more accurate figures of how many signups a month ARS does? :Graucho

I totally agree. Over the next 6 months we will see who the good guys are. The truth is about to come out in a really big way. Not only for sponsors, but for processors as well. And to be honest that scares us more than anything. The fact that epoch has banned ibill has to have you more than a little nervous. It definitely doesn't paint a pretty picture for ibill. I've spent the last 6 months watching the processors and of the big 4 i must say CCbill seems to be the safest bet BY FAR!

I was actually worried about the same thing myself....my top sponsor has a 0.2% CB ratio, but that won't do me any good if the processor goes tits up and I lose my rebills.

I was told that with the new visa regs (the ones that required everyone to register their company and urls)
IPSP's processes for sponsored merchants.
VISA will tell the IPSP to stop processing for YOU if you're out of compliance, and as long as they do that they'll still be good to process for everyone else.

shap - they banned ibill for a lot of personal reasons that have sparked from business interests. I know the issues they have with ibill and frankly I have them too. They aren't banning them because of any other reason.

This isn't doom and gloom and this isn't the end of anything...

This business will go on, hopefully the next few months will show a lot of clean up and we can look back at these few days as the turning point of the things to come :)

I hear you Lenny. Let's hope that's the case. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if Visa saw a trend for certain IPSPs having a larger percentage of clients in violation and in turn fining them. I've done research on everyone of our chargebacks for the past few months. We have found a MUCH higher level of fraud going thru ibill. I can't see Visa letting processors pad their pockets with CB fines (imposed by the processors themselves) and processing fees for scrubbing less. They'll have to make sure the IPSPs are doing whatever they can to avoid chargebacks.

Shap, you are 100% wrong.

Danni's Karups, etc. don't have a chargeback issue (maybe) because they have almost no affiliate program. Yes, they have a program, but not many webmasters use it.

The issue is the larger per-signup guys, like us, that have a competitive payout and have to have trials to convert the traffic. Then we have to maximize the revenue to keep the payouts high so webmasters will still send traffic. Those smaller guys don't do any of that.

Mike, Marc, Roger, and the rest are doing the right thing.

shap - ibill's legacy system was a HUGE cause of problems. Have you been using their Nex Gen system at all? Much cleaner...

Wow... that's a horrible thing to say. You've basically said you're not interested in repeat customers. You want to grab the surfer, cram a few overused pics and plugins down his throat, milk him for all you can and then move onto the next person. And you wonder why you have chargebacks?

Any business is about making money. But you need customers to make money. And to make more money, you need to keep the customer happy.

You just basically admitted that you're solely interested in fucking over your customer for a few bucks.

Lens - good to see you around. So my burning question to you? What will you be lowering your payouts to? LOL j/k

Will you continue to charge $39.99 per month? Will you lower that monthly rate and in turn adjust your payout to remain profitable?

Danni doesn't do trials. Full signups convert 25 - 33% of what trials do.

psyko514 - I didn't admit that at all. First of all my customers are WEBMASTERS, not surfers. I don't own or operate paysites, those companies are my clients!

Secondly, everyone person on the face of the planet owning a business (all for profit businesses) are in business to MAKE MONEY!!! Are you telling me you really got in this business with the goal in mind of giving guys the absolute best 'whack it' material? C'mon ... You got in this business to turn a buck.

That said, I am a COMPLETE consumer advocate, and as long as you offer a product for a price they are willing to pay, you are doing a good job. If they don't want it, they won't buy it! Just be ethical in your business practices!

Great to have Marc's insight on this. We should chat on the phone tomorrow about biz.

And yes, we will be lowering most rebills. We will also be announcing a new program and new payouts before Internext.

Lens I never said Danni had trials. I said she pays $30 per signup. Is a non trial signup no longer a signup?


The point is the PPS business model is ALL WRONG! That's it.

I don't think Marc really wants to fuck the surfer, but the ARS/Global paysites certainly aren't worth what they're charging.

I can't believe so many people are trembling and moaning about payouts going down.

I see these announcements and I think "You mean we're no longer going to train the surfer that he gets to see the good stuff for free? We're going to tell him that he has to pay for it?
HOT DAMN, BABY! COUNT ME IN!!"

Then again, I get excited over change - I see it as an opening of opportunities, not an ending of what was there before.

Big thumbs up to Silvercash and ARS for being the first ones to step forward and lead the industry in a positive direction. :thumbsup :thumbsup

Are you saying there's not enough there to whack off too? I've been to their sites, and there's a year's worth of orgasm's in there.

You can every naked pic on earth in a site, and some people will still say it's not enough.

Brown Bear - thus the price change down to $29.99

I hope for a time when we have no trials and even lower monthly fees - but at the same time we MUST be competitive.

Also realize there are OTHER methods than recurring to do this. Be on the lookout, we have something new on the horizon to battle this very issue :)

Lens - hit me on ICQ 46972932 We will chat :)

shap - we pay $50 for monthly memberships. I would offer all monthly memberships if I could remain competitive. However, the value per click in return of offering now trials would make my program obsolete! :(

Carrie - you obtain a very crucial element in the key to success.

Perception is reality. If you perceive everything to be bad, it will be. If you can find the good in any situation, you can manipulate that to your advantage and gain from it. Its the difference between top shelf and the well :)

How are they leading the industry in a positive direction? They're being FORCED to change their ways. That isn't leadership, it's called covering your ass so Visa doesn't bend them over and fuck them for good.

Brown Bear - its industry leading because we are trying to correct some of the self imposed problems WE ALL HAVE CREATED. It takes a leader to stand up and say we are going to make changes and those changes are going cause us to lower payouts and even though that may not help our competitive standing we will do it anyways. Its for the good of us and this industry.

Could you seriously not read that or would you prefer to just continue hating and blaming... ?

Lensman, are you saying quantity is better than quality? They might have a lot of content, but it's crappy quality and its mostly non-exclusive content.

Good point.

Most webmasters forget that they look at porn all day, and just because they've seen something before doesn't mean that the surfer joining the site has seen it before.

How many pics are in a playboy or hustler print magazine? 20, 30? People still buy those every month and get off with them.
Even the worst paysite on earth has more content than that.

Lenny2 - EXACTLY, its all about perspective and ours is so skewed we couldn't even determine was is good and not good to the avg joe surfer :)

Marc, the only reason you're changing is because you're being FORCED to change or go out of business. Claiming that you're "leading" the industry into a new direction is a bit high and mighty of you, don't you think?

The Bottomline is simple. Things are changing for the better.

Let's revisit this thread July 11, 2004. Whoever is still in business then will be doing something right. Things are about to move in the right direction. It will be a bumpy ride along the way, but that's the way things go. The companies doing things the right way will still be around and most likely kicking more ass than ever. Imagine all these members that have had nightmare experiences with websites. Multiple charges etc etc. All this is about to, probably not end, but at least lessen. Hopefully the surfer will start to regain confidence in online porn and we'll all be sitting pretty :thumbsup

It takes balls to be one of the first to lower payouts. I applaud that. That is leading.

FYI: Playboy is some of the highest quality, exclusive content in the world. Thats why people pay $5 a month for a magazine subscription.

Quality people! QUALITY!!!

What would you rather fuck? A Playboy model or 10 nasty skanky crack whores?

QUALITY MATTERS!

Just because a paysite has 100,000+ XXX pics doesn't mean that any of it is any good.

Quality people! QUALITY!!!

Relax guys, the most important thing to worry about in every business is customer demand for your product or service. In this industry we all sell sex and with over 1 MILLION new surfers coming on the Net for the first time every day the everexpanding base of new customers is solid as a rock and the demand for sexual stimulation is invincible.

Change is good. Cleaning up is good. And most importantly taking out the trash is ALWAYS good.

We will survive. We will innovate. We will conquer and defeat the conservative forces trying every way they can to destroy and disrupt our industry. We will work twice as hard and twice as smart to make the porn industry grow bigger and bigger. We are unstoppable because the demand for our product and service is unstoppable.

Challenge is exciting. It keeps you on your toes. It makes business the chess game that it is. You would be bored silly climbing one foot high mounds of dirt every day. Mountains keep you alive, healthy, invigorated and exhilerated, especially when you conquer them. With change comes lots of new opportunities. New fortunes can be made for those that find new ways to do things.

Now is the time to analyze everything in your business from top to bottom. Get rid of the crap, get rid of the things that won't fly under the new regs, create all new ways of doing things, and don't let the stress of it all set you back or keep you down. Fuck that. Kick it back into first gear, put your head and your love for this business up as high as you can and go full throttle!

:thumbsup

Brown Bear - I'm not trying to call myself an industry leader for this. BTW, don't be fooled I would go out of business from this. I'm just trying to 'control' this situation. I'm not FORCED to do anything :) I'm seeing this as an oportunity to make a change that will probably be followed by many because it should be and is in some ways EXACTLY what the card associations want.

You are confusing need / survival with the passing of an opportunity and attempting to reverse some wrongs that have been done.

See it how you will - I know my reasons :)

Which paysite program do you own again?
Surely you must own several since you know everything there is to know about keeping members happily rebilling and not charging back.

Now I know how wrong I've been all these years :(