No, YOU say that.

Now name some "reputable scientists" (and if you mention the names Duane Gish or Henry Morris I will throttle you) who do not believe in macro evolution.

You know that whole "burden of proof" thing? Please find me a well respected scientist that thinks the missing link HAS been found.

I just gave you THREE "missing links"

Find me the same about the "creator" you blieve in!

jDoG

Please give me the name of ONE respected scientist that believes those are indeed "missing links".

I asserted a belief. You told me I'm wrong. The burden of proof is on YOU.

:thumbsup

What I would like to understand from you people believing in creationism is this..



How do you explain that everything we know... I mean EVERYTHING.... can be brough back down to a list of very specific combination of Elements.... YET, make some very different beings, different species, or even different materials.... but all made from the exact same elements...



Why then, if everything is basically coming from the same place (same basic elements) is it so hard to believe that somewhere, along the line, something changes and makes something different....

Where is the BOTH option?

I was looking for that ;)

Stephen J. Gould (deceased)... and tens of thousands of others.

Before you make a bigger fool of yourself I suggest you do some reading: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/

I don't have time for this now, will be back later.

The burden of proof lies with the person making the assertion.

Mutations, baby. Mutations. :)

The same way Alfonseca (pitcher for the Cubs) has 6 fingers on each hand. The same reason random plants and animals of all species turn out albino. You inject various environmental stimulants, and you can have an unlimited number of outcomes. Your thinking does have a solid base, but you're not looking at nearly all the possibilities.

Here are some crack baby frog equivalents. But nature does the same thing...give mother nature a couple hundred million years and it will cook up crazier things than this.

http://kindtimes.com/img/deformedfrogs.jpg

Because 1-) It has already been millions of years and there is STILL no proof that one species can produce a different type. There are no fossils, no records... nothing indicating that anything has ever or will ever produce a completely different species, like the ape theory dictates. That missing link has never been found, because it did not happen like that. It's not a small scale because I am not talking about recent science experiments exclusively, I am talking about since the beginning of time, there has never been a species that produced a different one.

2-) A single human cell and a fish cell for example, are not the same. So if you take a cell from a fish and attempt to impregnate a human female with it, it will not work on so many different levels. The DNA of human cells is different than other living species, so no matter how long those cells are given to reproduce, whether naturally or scientifically induced, those cells will NEVER create anything other than it's own kind.

What you speak of does not make either of those examples a completely different species. If Alfonseca has a child, chances are they won't have the same birth defects as him. He is in fact STILL a human, he is not a new species.

The albino theory is simply an aesthetic difference, it still does not make plants or animals a different species. It's like if 2 black people have a white looking baby, the baby is still human and not a new species of mammal.

I already showed this idiot this on the last page....He rejects it....No need of arguing with ignorance

It's gradual. You don't have a donkey flop out a york terrier. You're correct. But given environmental changes...animal bodies adapt differently. Given hundred of thousands of births of a species in new environments..the ones with the most survivable characteristics are the ones that are most likely to survive and reproduce.

Have you ever seen the 13 yr. old girl that can climb walls, etc..and has beat all the women in almost every climbing even event? She's faster, more agile, has a longer reach, etc.

She moved to Africa when she was only 4...and her only real friend and influence was this pet monkey she had. Well...she learned to climb trees, jump form one limb to another, etc. But since she was so young, and her bones were still impressionable...here hands and body grew different than yours and mine.

Here arm span is longer than her height. Not extreme..but more like that of a monkey. If you look at her fingers, her joints/knuckles are oversized and her fingers look different. Here grip is unbelievably strong. She's just a regular girl..but she has amazing capabilities.

I'm not saying she partially turned into a monkey...but I'm saying our bodies, and those ov other living things, are built to adapt. The ones that do it best survive the best. And if this girls was part of a tribe..and they lived in isolation for thousands and thousands of years doing monkey like stuff..they would probably look different, and have different capabilities than you and I.

Evolution is a very, very slow process. But sometimes it does get jump starts...such as environmental changes (ice ages, etc), isolation, radiation, chemical reactions, etc.



For 13-year-old Tori Allen, the youngest of the top U.S. boulderers, the sky's the limit, because she can climb like ... well, like a monkey
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/fea...wardly_mobile/

And for the same reasons, it would be easy to believe that some entity CREATED life using basic "building blocks" to do so... the same group of elements to make different "products".

thank u

Exactly. I agree with you. But mutations are just THAT, blips in the normal structure of things. If one other thing went wrong when either of these cases, it might be passed on down to their offspring. And it might happen only once every 15,000 years..or it might happen every third generation. There are unlimited possibilities...

We can argue forever. I've just been studying it for some number of years now, gathering any info I can in any direction. Looking for some kind of answers..and after talking to people from all over the world, I can't even pretend to think evolution isn't possible. That's silly. I still don't know how everything was created either. Who says it had to have a beginning anyways? As a whole, we humans are still very stupid...so anything is possible.

People who don't accept evolution are those who do not understand it. They ask questions such as:

where is the half-monkey/half-man?
Why can't we see things evolve?

These are questions 7 year olds would ask. Sad.

I already asked him for proof of his creator aliens, several times.

To Donovan, a theory with no evidence proves itself, while a theory with a mountain of evidence and a few holes is totally lacking credibilty.

It's a jump to believe that humans evolved from apes, but it's not a jump to believe aliens landed and made us.

But show the missing link, the scientist that have shown that proof!

jDoG

Again, she is still a human and not a new species. Even if she had children and hundreds of generations of children after her, that all shaped their bones to grow that way, they would all still be humans. Human anatomy is much deeper than just physical appearance, i am sure you agree. Just because an entire clan of people have hair all over their body and down to their ankles, does not make them a different species, nor will they ever evolve into a new species. Sure it's possible that if a woman and man start creating children that have longer arm bone structure and what not, but underneath the exterior, they are still a human species and will never produce anything other than human species, unless they can alter their DNA and genetic make up as well. All through history, there has NEVER been a case of this happening. Humans may have evolved in their appearance, but there is no proof that we are the product of another species. We may be SIMILIAR to other species, but it's not possible for a species to give life to anything but their own. There's no evidence of it and no matter how hard science tries to force it, it has not been done yet. Maybe in the future it could be possible, but as of now... it hasn't happened naturally or forcefully. So to think humans or any other creature, has evolved from the same cell or from other existing creatures, is unlikely and cannot be proved by either records or fossils, same as creation.

If humans evolved from other species, there would be "halfway" points, such as half human/half apes etc. Like you said, evolution is slow... so therefore, there would be other fossils and archeological finds of remains that would provide evidence of the missing link, but it has never been discovered and I don't believe it ever will be. So ruling out creation would be just as naive as ruling out evolution, because there is no exact proof of either. Faith is not fact, that's why it's hard to prove one's belief, compared to one's findings.

Again, I believe in evolution, as a universe and planet, but not as another species to form another. People produce red hair, blonde hair, black hair, blue eye, brown eye, light skin, dark skin kids... but they are all still of human species, like pit bulls and maltese are still the same species, even though they don't look alike. If humans start having purple and green polka dotted kids with 6 toes and 9 fingers per limb, that would still be another race/ethnicity and not a whole new species.

I understand what you're saying and agree with a lot of it. Each species does have genetic safeguards built in to prevent it from breeding with other species. But we are continualy pushing those boundries just in our short time investigating and experimenting. Yes...there are no kept records of any bizarre instance where the rules of DNA are broken, but we haven't been able to keep records for very long. We couldn't even records pictures or sound 200 years ago. Things will most likely be different going forward.

I do not understand your thinking that there haven't been any mid-way points between ancient primates and humans. Yeah, it's difficult to put all the pieces together. And the whole evolution idea, our research techniques, and dating technologies are all very new. But bit by bit, the gaps are getting filled in. The following ARE all theories..I understand that. But they all show beings that don't exist now, and continue to get closer to our form.



I'm done for now. I'm going to eat a banana and watch the World Series.

:winkwink:


First modern Homo-sapien - 30,000 years ago http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/cromagnon.html

Homo sapiens neanderthalensis - 50,000 years ago
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/chapelle.jpg

Early Homo sapiens (archaic) - 250,000-500,000 years ago
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/petralona.jpg

Homo erectus - 1.6 miliion years ago
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/15000.html

Homo habilis - 1.5 to 2 million years ago
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/stw53.jpg
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/1813.html

Australopithecus africanus - 2.5 million years old
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/sts5.jpg
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/taung.jpg

Australopithecus afarensis - 3.2 million years old
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/lucy.html

It's pointless to argue against the uneducated. You'll just get retorts of "I believe this, I believe that..."
People of Science and those who study Evolution believe in OBSERVABLE FACTS, not in leaps of faith as Creationists do.

It is obvious to me that folks in this thread who are disbelieving of Evolution haven't done enough true studying and reading on the subject, and are prone to quoting mistruths often spewed by the Creationist and Intellegent Design people.

That's where creationism is flawed....


Who created the 'species'... we did... we said.. oh look, this one has more hair, and is from this tall to this tall and weighs this much.... cuz right now, we look at them and , well, what's similar is put in the same category... what has the same DNA markup will be in the same category...



But take that 1 million years ago...... take a family that keeps having long armed children... the children keep climbing all the time... for food, they need to get higher and higher to get the food... etc... well, after a few generations, this trait will start getting out... others that moved away will NOT have those traits as they don't need it... but they might grow different traits... for instance, they might need to run away from some predators... so they'll grow bigger legs..

Give it 100,000s of years, after 5,000 generations, then someone looking at both of these might NOT think they are the same....

DNA markup between us and fish are WAY off... but fish/human connection would be in the 100s of millions of years ago... but if you look back at the dna markup of our closest cousins you will see it matches to a great extent...


anyhow, am out for the night, no point arguing as I will not beileve that humans were created exactly as they are now... and you won't see the light ;)

The one thing that all those in this thread arguing against evolution have in common is a basic ignorance of the subject.

If you are going to argue against something it's a good idea to actually KNOW something about it in the first place.

Arguing from ignorance is as pointless as pissing in the wind.

"Nothing in biology makes sense, except in the light of evolution"
Theodosius Dobzhansky (1900-1975)

Bullshit.

The Earth is an open system. We receive energy from the Sun. The second law of thermodynamics applies only to closed systems.

i really don't know...it's very confusing!http://www.addis-welt.de/smilie/smil...le-domanda.gif

i admit it freely - i did not read this entire thread

but...

evolution is a form of adaptation. you can raise fish or mice and watch it happen. over a period of generations, they will change to fit their environment.

50 evolving beaks

http://www.pbs.org/safarchive/4_clas...101_beaks.html

"Adam & Eve" type creationists piss me off. That's the biggest god damn horseshit fairlytale. It's nothing but a myth to tell children so you don't have to put forth the effort in explaining how we really got here. Lazy fucks.

Science has repeatedly proven again & again that evolution is how we came to be. Don't believe it?? Well.....the human brain has a pretty hard fucking time comprehending large numbers, but with evolution you're talking about billions of years. An incomprehensible figure. Cells and organisms had ample time to mutate, randomly and out of necessity. That's the way it happened.

However...

I'm not completely close minded...It is feasible that a higher power placed the cells on what we now call earth. Feasible, not likely though.

Quote:

"Never , in my wildest fluctuations , have I ever been an atheist"

Charles Darwin.

:Graucho

It would be funny if it wasn't so damn scary.

Good article:

Scientific American- 15 Answers to Creationist Nonsense

Nice :thumbsup

:thumbsup

Bingo.

Creation or Evolution ?

We were created and we evolved

Basically it can be explained by physics.

Some say that our beginning was created by an end, but that's questionable. However there is no denying this basic law of physics:

For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

For existence to begin, a force had to cause the beginning.