Donny - fuck the ICQ - pick up the phone and give him a buzz :thumbsup

Thats really shitty .
Guess you'll have to write it off as a lesson learned .

Good luck fletch .
Hope something good comes of it .

Donny and I have spoken on ICQ for awhile now. Obviously this runs deeper than just between he and I.

Today is Monday and its a holiday, I can wait until people get back around to straighten this out but it will be dealt with.

I will start a thread about the outcome or progress.

I really hope for the best, but experience sometimes teaches us otherwise.

Either you are away or you are ignoring me. I just sent this:



DonovanPhillips (12:53 PM) :
I BCC'd you. I would say that ICQ conversation really makes him 100% aware of the situation, wouldn't you?

DonovanPhillips (12:54 PM) :
Still there?
DonovanPhillips (12:56 PM) :

I need to tell you, I really want to post our ICQ conversation:

URL TO ICQ CONVERSATION WITHHELD FOR NOW

in that thread. I am very disappointed this went to the board, but since it has, I think everyone should read that. What do you think?

Donny - I thought you and Fletch were buddies - ???

If that's still the case, why don't you guys get on the phone with
each other and get to the bottom of this? I know that this is a
high-tech world, but some things need to be handled over the
phone, not over ICQ. :2 cents:

I have a question here.
I understand your frustration.

And don't like to see anyone getting ripped off.

For example say I went you and paid you to design my site. After all payments were made, would I be allowed to change/Mirror that site, using the template you created, with different images to give it a totally different look?

Just wondering, and dont mean to get off the topic of your issue.

3 reasons:

1. I need to leave to take TeenKarma back home (6 hour round trip for me)

2. his number is at my office and I'm at home

3. I thought we had a better relationship than to go directly to the boards over something like this... and since I'm obviously wrong and Fletch wants to take this to the court of public opion, ICQ logs show the "public opinion" group a little more detailed information.

Donny I was not ignoring you, I was taking a shower!

hahaha

I have been dealing with this since the minute I woke up, after our ICQ log I decided to take a shower ;)

Post the icq if you want here:

http://www.donovanphillips.com/images/fletch/

"we" do but I have no deal with your parner.

You told me he is copying my design on sites you are not even part of.

This, folks, is exactly what I believe to be happening in this case. My partner knows I paid Fletch (more than he asked, actually) and likely assumes we own exclusive rights to the design (as is the case when purchasing exclusive content). That would give him the right to duplicate the design, as is the case with TGP gallery templates.

BUT... since my partner is not in town today (being a holiday) I can't ask him. The new tours were done without my knowlege. I simply can't answer Fletch's questions today because I DON'T KNOW WHAT MY PARTNER HAD IN MIND. Simple as that.

Donny if you plan on posting in this thread I assure you to not try and change facts.

You didnt pay me more than I asked for that design.

from icq:

"DonovanPhillips (12:04 PM) :

I do think you should mention in the thread on GFY that I told you what happened between my partner and I and asked how much you wanted for KinkyChloe.com and then paid you the amount you requested. I think I actually even paid more than you asked.

DonovanPhillips (12:04 PM) :

Or was the "more than you asked" with something else?

FletchCore (12:05 PM) :

I am really not sure, but I do not think it was this project since I had designed this with thinking of percentage. I wasnt paid out until I was told I was no longer part of the deal.

FletchCore (12:05 PM) :

the more than you asked was definitely something else."

I was working on % not a flat pay at that time, you know that.

THE AGREEMENT WAS THAT WAS A ALT TOUR for teen chloe, not a template to be used on multiple sites that you are not even part of.

And for the record... all my present single girl sites are in partnership with TFCash because the owner is a friend of mine, one of the best people in the business, and knows the "teen" niche.

DonnysMoney.com is my own program, seperate from my single girl sites.

I am now shutting off my computers and taking Karma home. I'll be gone at least 6 hours but will address any issues that need me to address them when I return.

I promise I will resolve this to the best of my abilities as soon as it is possible. It's just not possible at the moment with some of the involved people being out of town for the Holiday.

Damn, I hate being directly involved in drama.

(No hard feelings against Fletch... at least not enough to make me change my mind that he's the best designer in the biz).

hmm so I suppose its Fletch who is at fault for not getting it on paper from you that kinky chloe design was not to be used on other sites.

He was told you would be using it for an alternate tour and just took your word on it.

Template designs are a whole other thing. You cannot compare this to some rehashing of a $15 gallery template.

How would you feel if someone bought content from you and just assumed it was exclusive to them and gave copies to all their friends to use? I would think a professional content producer as yourself would understand. Guess not.

Damn the situation is sticky, if it wasn't in writing.

If he paid for it, then the design really isn't fletch's anymore. It is shady, but they can replicate it as many times as the want.

Hope you guys can work it out.

I hear ya! :thumbsup

Not true.. Unless they worked out a deal for copyrights as well, the design is fletch's no matter how many times people pay for it or how much.

I'm a little surprised how this has played out and with who, and I hope it all gets resolved. Fletch has been dealt with VERY poorly here and I'm hoping everyone can make ammends.

i would get the other sites closed due to copyright infringement.....!!


that really blows mate AND I hope you will not give up without a dirty fight!

Being the business partner on the other end here with Fletch, it kind of went like this:

Fletch gets hit up with a partnership deal that sounds really great, and is ready to spend lots of his own time on the projects. Pictures of multiple models are shown to him, all girls needing sites, it all sounds great. Figures are discussed and it would have been a nice long term partnership.

So then Fletch then spends time working on this first site design and then turns it over.

Next thing ya know Fletch is being told that the specific girl (chloe) he designed the site for was chosen by Donny's partner to be added to his program of girl sites. It was then explained to Fletch by Donny that this other partner pays a lot of $$ to Donny for his content and that he was obligated to give him first choice of his models for single girl sites.

The other partner wasn't interested in sharing any of the % with Fletch, said he had in house designers and didn't need Fletch's kinky chloe design. So, again it was said that it would just be an alternate tour for Donny's affiliates.

So Fletch is told this deal still stands in regards to the sites needed for other girls, yet that is something else that never came through on this deal either. It really makes me question the intentions here from the beginning.

Anyhow if you've read this far and grasp this post...

Next I recall next in the chain of events, we noticed Donny had made a copy of the kinky chloe layout on his new site amateur market site. When confronted, Donny tells him that since he knows Fletch is so busy he didn't want to bother him to design the site and just had his friend do it. Uh, again ok.

So far all is cool in the chain of events, even though it still kind of sucks. Donny tells Fletch he can go ahead design an alternate tour for NCG along same partership lines, without this other partner involved, which he does. All goes ok with that, but another issue in itself.

So here we are now and this other partner has changed all of his old cookie cutter girl site designs to a knock off of the same original fletch/kinky chloe design that was supposed to be part of a revshare deal and then became an alternate tour. These same sites copied by the guy who didn't want to pay Fletch a % for his work, gee go figure. Although I do still hope at this point it is a misunderstanding, it surely does not look that way.

This is how I see it. Sure there are other little facts here and there.

If its just a misunderstanding and not about money and screwing people over I am sure Fletch will be compensated.

At this point I have very little faith and figure they will just alter the tour designs minimally and carry on.

Lesson learned.

You could very well be right, I did a quick search and it seems to be why explicit written contracts are suggested.

Each party could conceivablely claim copyright and back-up their claim.

The other problem is the replication...if that itself would be a violation of the copyright of that original design.

I think, in fairness, it is a bit stickier than most "you fucked me!" threads.

[edit read the cherylula response]
Fuck it, there is too much info to even render an opinion on the matter. Use contracts.

Sorry to see that you were screwed, Fletch . I have seen alot of this type of threads hanging around here the last few years but I am shocked to see it about you and Donovan. :(


Threads like this one is way I am afraid to reply back to a MAJOR sponsor that wanted to partner up with me on my sites.

Donny, always liked you but this shit stinks and you know it.

You were on here yourself boasting about how you were paying Fletch because you believe blah blah blah.

If you can't tell, he's now getting fucked royally. Regardless of what you do now that shit wouldn't sit well with me ever.

Pay the man what you originally agreed and move on with your business. If your "friend" expects you to fuck over a business aquaintance because he doesn't want to share the cookies you should tell him to stick it up his ass.
:2 cents:

I warn you now. no matter who what how much you trust them.

contracts, writing. my uncle has a team of lawyers and hopefully I can get him to write me up something really good so this never happens again.

I am having something drawn up before I turn over another piece of work to anyone.

I retain PSDs and never even delivered them, this was all a deal in progress that kinda got sidetracked because I was cut out and it kinda kept rolling.

It basically comes down to me being hit up to not only design 1 solo girl site, but a flock of them. I even mentioned this deal to a VERY SELECT few on this board.

Now it seems I was cut out of that loop and not only was I cut out, my work was then used to FINISH the deal.

that is simply how I see it in its most simple terms.

lesson MORE THAN LEARNED.

contracts and signatures from now on.

This is like the sword of damocles in my side, this act will make my entire workload more trouble now because I will not let this go, not forget it, and now my other clients who never pull shit like this will have to deal with the consequences. While I wont have people sign shit for gallery orders, a disclaimer or something is more than in order.

this entire thread makes me sick to my stomach, and won't be forgotten.

Welcome to the day that separates a real designer from the wanna be's Fletch.

Its a hard day for a designer when they realise the power of there own designs over business's that stand to take advantage of there creativity.

Becomming aware of creative abilities value and protecting it is a very good day for a creative graphic artist.

All the hardcore design pro's come to this day so welcome to the next level FletchXXX:thumbsup

You do great work I have seen alot of it and admire your style bud. Its going to be interesting to see how you position yourself in the comming months from this event.:thumbsup

Um... wow.

I have a strong feeling this will get even uglier.

Agree, someone should be busting balls to make this right.

We'll see but I doubt it.

Took me a while to read through all this... There is allways two sides of a story but it indeed sounds like Fletch got fucked over. :( Threads like this one shows which people to do biz with and who to avoid. Hopefully Fletch will get many new clients after this thread, I know he is one designer we'd turn to if we needed something done. :thumbsup

like i posted in another thread i trust NOONE, but you the oNLY one i trust, i don't why anyone would try to fuck you, you good shit, fuck these hoes who try to fuck you....Fletch XXX keep doing you.....:glugglug

Id rather not see it turn ugly or uglier.

I have plenty of info, facts, conversations... icq history, everything to back me up. I wont go into any of that but it goes MUCH DEEPER.

People have been emailing me info on laws about this and all I can say is this:

Donny mentioned this guy thinking he had "exclusive rights" well, designers retain FEDERAL COPYRIGHTS to all work unless explicity stated in an Exclusive COntract. Also what that law states is that, unless you have exclusive contract for the design, you do not even have the authority or legal right to have it copied in any way.

technically, the design is mine unless stated otherwise in a contract, we have no contract, the work is mine and no one but me, and me alone has the rights to allow someone to copy it.

Its basically as simple as that.

I dont want to see this get any more nasty than it has to. I only want what I deserve. Compensation and the respect I am owed for my work.

Damages can be awarded anywhere from $700 to 30,000 per infringement. I do not want to see it get nasty, but I have complete faith I am right, and should not have had to deal with this.

Enlightening aint it!:glugglug

I'm very surprised that DOnovan, a content guy, wouldn't be more verse in copyright law, since the same laws generally apply to any work of art, be it a photograph, a design, a drawing, or what have you. I'm disappointed and the whole thing is very shitty. Hopefully everything gets worked out to an amicable ending. Good luck Fletch!

Man I'm really sorry to hear you got fucked over. It seems this industry is full of conmen and charlatans ready to rip off anyone who they feel can be of benefit to them.

To see it happen to a man of his word like you pisses me off.

I hope this all gets sorted out ASAP and you get what what you were promised and deserve.

:glugglug

I just got back from taking Karma home, and Jesus Christ, now I'm furious!! Fletch's girl gets on here and makes me out to be a complete untrustworthy asshole.

Let me tell you, first of all, that a person that is sneaky or crooked is also suspicious of EVERYONE ELSE.

I am not like that. I have only spoken to Fletch on the phone and in ICQ and I trust him so much that I gave him complete FTP access, not only to one folder on my server, but to ALL of my sites. He could have fucked me at any time. But I knew he wouldn't. Why? Because I just knew.

Like I said, a person that is shady would never trust another person. Think about that for a second before replying.

Next post will address the issues. This post is simply addressing my integrity. Hold off to read the next post before replying.

Here is what happened:

* I have several models interested in doing single-girl sites with me.

* Chloe (see KinkyChloe.com) was one of those girls.

* I wanted to cut the designer in on website revenues. I wanted Fletch to be the designer because I REALLY like the guy. He is a straight shooter and tells it like it is.

* Fletch starts on the design. Meantime, TFCash, that has done business with me for several years and spends six figures per year with me on exclusive content expresses an interest in her. I tell TFCash that I would like to have Fletch do the design and receive a percentage.

* TFCash is not interested in this... they have their own designer.

* I let Fletch know what is going on. I tell him "I can either tell them that I'm keeping the model for myself and working with you, promoting the model through my own program.... or I can pay you for your work. Charge me more than normal... and I'll use the KinkyChloe design for my own affiliates to promote".

* Fletch is disappointed, but says that he understands my position since TFCash is such a big client and personal friend. He tells me to go ahead and pay him $500 for the design. I make him think about it for awhile to be sure. He thinks about it and is still willing to part with that site. I tell him that I feel really bad about the situation and that he can create an alternate tour for NakedCollegeGirls, that I'll pay him $500 for the NCG alternate tour, and that I'll set up a seperate CCBill account for the NCG alternate tour and pay him 25% of sales ON TOP OF paying him for the design. He says he's happy with that.

* The alternate tour Fletch makes for NCG converts at 1:171 the first weekend out, with my own traffic. Then I release it to affiliates and the overall conversion ratio drops below 1:2,000. I am stunned, but I REALLY don't want to hurt Fletch's feelings, so I don't tell him how bad the conversions are...

* Fletch gets busy with other clients and I get busy on my own stuff and we don't chat as much on ICQ.

* TFCash finishes the first TeenChloe.com design. I fucking hate it. I tell them so. I tell them Fletch's design looks much better. Since I brought up Fletch, TFCash asks if he's still okay with me purchasing his design. I told him that Fletch is disappointed but has been really cool about it and that I have made other agreements with him on sites unrelated to TFCash.

* Life goes on. I feel bad for Fletch, but it was ultimately Fletch that made the decision to allow me to buy the design and work with him on other projects instead. If he hadn't approved it, Chloe would have remained just between he and I. I put all the cards on the table and let Fletch choose.

* Right before my vacation TFCash releases the new designs in discussion. They look very similar to the design Fletch did for KinkyChloe.com. I don't have time to talk to Fletch about them because I'm leaving for vacation.

* I get back and have angry ICQ messages from Fletch saying he'd like to resolve this with me and not go to the boards. I get these messages 2.5 hours after he initially sent them. But by then he's already gone to the boards.

* I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THE REASONING IS BEHIND THE NEW DESIGNS BECAUSE I HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO TALK TO TFCASH!

Now... I'll continue and answer other questions in my next post.

Donny I don't think you are an untrustworthy asshole, nor am I really trying to paint you as that. That is just my perspective here.

I am with Fletch just about 24/7 and am not just some bitchy girlfriend.

I really hope this all gets resolved, but honestly when were you going to bring this to Fletch's attention that your partner was duping the site layout? I mean come on, you already duped a copy for amateur market, so we pretty much assumed you were aware of the other sites creations.

Anyhow hope it gets resolved.

I have been selling exclusive content ONLY for 7 years (with the exception of approx. 10 sets I sent to Ounique for resell).

When I sell a set of exclusive photos to a client, that client has FULL RIGHTS to the photos. I have NO RIGHTS from that point on. The client can resell them, give them away, or distribute them on the strip in Las Vegas to all who pass.... it's their choice. The photos are no longer mine.

I am very familiar with copyrights as related to what I do.

Now, if everyone would READ THE FUCKING THREAD they'll see that I DO NOT KNOW WHY HIS DESIGNS WERE IMITATED. I had nothing to do with it.

TFCash has been buying exclusive content from me from the beginning of my career in the business. I can only ASSUME (REPEAT ---- ASSUME BECAUSE I HAVEN'T SPOKEN WITH THEM AND DO NOT KNOW WHAT THEY THINK) that TFCash, knowing that I purchased the design from Fletch, believes that copyright laws with designers is the same as it is with content providers.

TFCash also knows that I am very generous and that what is mine is his... if he wants to use it. IF he assumed that I have the same exclusive rights on this DESIGN that he has when he buys content from me, he would know that I would allow him to use anything I own.

He also knows that I hated his designer's work and loved Fletch's.

I can see why he would do what he did without thinking twice about it.

I can ALSO see Fletch's side.

BUT READ THIS. TWICE. THREE FUCKING TIMES IF YOU DON'T COMPREHEND IT THE FIRST TWO TIMES:

I HAVE NO FUCKING IDEA EXACTLY WHAT TFCASH IS THINKING BECAUSE I HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO ASK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now.... knowing TFCash, I do know they are not scumballs either. They are some of the best in the business. I know there is a logical explanation for this. I JUST HAVEN'T HEARD IT FROM THEM YET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Got that???????



And to be completely honest with you, I had no idea that copyright laws for Designs are different than the laws I go buy when selling exclusive content.

I got back from my vacation on Friday morning. An hour later I found out that I'd been arrested in Las Vegas Thursday evening (yes, the night before I got back from my vacation--- when I was 700 miles away from Las Vegas: my little brother passed himself off as me) so I had to deal with that most of Friday afternoon. Around 7pm on Friday evening, Karma (from TeenKarma.com) calls and says she's free for the weekend to shoot updates. She lives 3 hours away and is IMPOSSIBLE to get in touch with, so I rush over to get her. We shoot for the weekend. I called TFCash on Saturday to discuss both Karma and the new designs. No one is there. I continue shooting Karma. Sunday, same thing. No one there. Shooting Karma as much as possible.

Monday morning (this morning) I log on to ICQ to message my cousin. I get Fletch's angry messages 2 and a half hours after he sends them. He says he wants to talk and not go to the boards. But by the time I got the message it's too late. He already has.

I still haven't been able to contact TFCash to get the story.


Jesus Christ. I can't believe this. Duped on Amateur Market??? I already went over this with Fletch. Now all of a sudden he's DUPED on AM?

How much would you like me to PayPal you for that? Let me know and it will be done. I thought this was a non-issue.

And I STILL can't believe this is on the boards.

Donny you seem to have a lot of troubles with your little brother. What's his problem?