Please dont bring up NCG here, do not give my tour a bad name because your affiliates cant send good traffic. I do NOT want this to go down this way Donny.

You want to complain about what youve made on that tour in public?

I put plenty of dollars of my time in doing LOADS of promo, and hosted galleries, no mentioning recruiting affiliates and trying to get you affiliates.

You want to go into this like this?

This is in fucking credible.

You said it yourself, you "tested" my tour with your traffic, and it did 1:171, then you let affiliates push it and the conversion goes to shit, gee go figure, dont fucking pin that on me. My shit converts and ALWAYS WILL.

period on that.

Branding may be a good explanation.

Donny did not buy a "site template" he purchased an "alternate tour" to be used BY HIM with HIS AFFILIATES, nothing more.

he can twist that around all he wants, the fact is right there.

You did not buy a "template" you bought a tour.

It's the truth. Add me to ICQ and I'll give you email addresses to clients... you can ask for yourself. You'll likely be impressed with my client list.

The only thing that even gets CLOSE to a contract is my invoice. It reads something like this:


Quantity Description Price
10 Sets exclusive: "Tanya" $150 per set



My ICQ: 92432224

Donny I think you should just step away and say no more until you speak with your partner. You're not doing yourself any good.

We have all agreed I wasn't aware this was happening. This all happened within the last two weeks. Less than two weeks, actually.


But even Fletch admitted that he could see how TFCash would think I had full rights to the template by purchasing it.

Sorry to hear that bro! We can break out the Cajun Mafia and go do a 187 on some foos!

I CAN EXPLAINE THAT.

The theory is simple.
A work is a work, and when a work is createdthe termsof the work are done via disclosure and agreement.
IE: The creative is to be informed of the matters relating to whats to be developed.

For example disclosing what the intended design is for as a work should it be a template proper disclosure would be informing the artist that it is a templated design that is to be utilised repeatedly.

Another example would be to tell a band they only need to write a single song for project X.

Turning around and taking the Song and applying it to various other X's without permission is a violation of Copyright without authorization of the creator of the song.

IE an artist may only want on his music to be on CD only and disallow any radio play. That might be off the wall but without permission the lease of the work to radio stations would be prohibited without consent.

I probably should step away. I'm sitting here drinking more and more beer and getting angrier and angrier.

I'll be using contracts with designers in the future, that's for fucking sure.

Note the use of the word "template" - I really wish you understodd the grand scheme of things going on right now Donny.

Its a shame you dont.

You can call it a template all you want.

Want me to bring up you mentioning taking the site KnkyChloe from your partner because of issues and RE-LAUNCHING it UNDE YOU AND I?????

Just a couple months ago.

I dont think you understand what youve done.

Well, if you get out of line I am not playing.

I am completely sober.

You want to get drunk and go off, thats cool.

But dont involve me.

See you in the morning when you arent drinking.

I have nothing more to say

I am way too drunk to understand the words coming out of your mouf..... er.... keyboard.

I just ICQ'd you.

this thread got really strange.
I thought maybe it was going to finish up tidy on all ends and now it's gone fucking loco...LOL

Donny it is 11 o/clock at night here.

I have LITERALLY been dealing with this since 8am.

thats more than fucking 12 hours on this shit.

I dont want to get on icq, and not when you are drinking. Nothing good can come out of it.

Wait until you talk to your partner and do what you feel is right.

Youve never fucked me before, somehow I hope this time it works out the same.

Please dont make this nasty. I want to just go watch a movie or something, I dont need this anymore tonight.

Donny's drinking. And angry that someone is slandering my name. I've never fucked anyone over. Now I get this. Taken straight to the boards. I'm pissed. I changed my FTP login password.

Fuck this bullshit.

Eros - This thread is a total tragedy and with all the designers on GFY that sell there services this thread had better be perminantly book marked and burned into your minds and maybe re evaluate the value of your talents.

GET OFF THE COMPUTER.

GO WATCH A MOVIE.

GET SOME SLEEP.

I'm taking that advice. Thanks. The thought actually never crossed my mind until you mentioned it.

If someone else posts requesting a reply from me, please point out to them that I'm offline for the evening.

Most of the time I don't even look at drama threads... But I did this one because fletch started it. So here is my 2 cent...

I have been dealing with TF Cash for 4 years now... I shoot a lot of content for him on a regular basis. I have always been treated fairly and in a professional manor by him. I myself would be upset if someone had a business problem with me and took it to this zoo of a board before talking with me personally....

Taking it to this board was not the way to get the misunderstanding corrected. And I'm sure could have been had people just comunicated...

I'll sure TF Cash will be in tomorrow... and he will work with you guys to get it resolve...

Thanks
Denny
Studio Twenty Eight

This is something I've been working on myself over the last couple of months...remember my "do you expect designers to turn over psds" thread?

I've written a new tos but still have to add some mor einformation, and am working on my project manager programming an "electric signature" of sorts...where when they put in an order *which is now automated* they can't proceed until they agree and electornically sign the TOS.

:thumbsup

Fuck I am glad I dont form business partnerships with people I met on gfy over icq..


I read the first page and can not read anymore

well this sucks, good luck to all involved. Donovan wouldn't screw anybody intentionally but this is a messy one.

partnerships especially when there are others in the background suck.

yep seems to have gone to hell in a handbasket

for those on the night shift.

Damn! Thats a fucked up story, and it once again showes that you cant trust anybody based on just reputation.

Good Luck to you 3!:thumbsup

Great advice.

The resolution:

DonovanPhillips (02:28 PM) :
Are you there? I talked to Todd.
Message was sent. User is Offline.
The message will be delivered when user goes Online.

FletchCore (02:29 PM) :
Hey just walked in with lunch, sitting down to eat and got your message, so what happened?

FletchCore (02:29 PM) :
what did he say?

FletchCore (02:31 PM) :
i really do not care what your old school friends think, Donny we ALL HAVE FRIENDS.

FletchCore (02:31 PM) :
Mine spoke aloud on the boards. period.

DonovanPhillips (02:31 PM) :
He said: "first of all, what did he copyright? The tables? Because none of his graphics were used". The he said, "secondly, going onto the boards is not a good way to get me to meet him halfway." And then he asked "who put the 'copyright 2004 kinkychloe.com on that? you or him".

DonovanPhillips (02:31 PM) :
and I told him the truth: you did.

FletchCore (02:31 PM) :
and

DonovanPhillips (02:32 PM) :
And he confirmed what I'd thought, that he also considered my purchase to have been for exclusive rights.

FletchCore (02:32 PM) :
okay so how will it be resolved?

DonovanPhillips (02:33 PM) :
He told me that if you'd like to talk to him that would be fine. But that he doesn't see how I can call you a friend if you go to the boards without talking to me.

FletchCore (02:34 PM) :
What does this have to do with the resolve? I care not to speak to him, I am going through you.

FletchCore (02:34 PM) :
I didnt do ANY BUSINESS with him, i dealt with you, YOU are his partner, not me.

FletchCore (02:34 PM) :
If I have to deal with him it will not be on a friendly level, simple, tell him if he needs to tell me something email me but I have no need to talk to him. Facts are facts, simple

FletchCore (02:35 PM) :
If he is not going to play it cool I have no reason to negotiate. I stated my stand, you can take care of this.

DonovanPhillips (02:35 PM) :
He feels he has no need to contact you, but said you can contact him.

FletchCore (02:35 PM) :
So he is not going to anything????? Is this what you are saying, simple YES OR NO????

FletchCore (02:36 PM) :
this can be handled so easily yet you guys want to play with me. I do not get it

FletchCore (02:36 PM) :
now youre trying to hold board shit over me like i feel threatened? Like i fucked u0???

FletchCore (02:36 PM) :
You knew about it and didnt give a shit, you know damn well you werent going to tell me anything about the copies.

FletchCore (02:36 PM) :
yes or no Donny, is anything going to happen, I need to know.

DonovanPhillips (02:36 PM) :
Fletch... his point is that the designs are so different that even if I didn't buy the rights, you wouldn't have a claim.

FletchCore (02:37 PM) :
His opinion is wrong, so be it.

FletchCore (02:37 PM) :
I hope the site designs will be worth the repucussions

DonovanPhillips (02:37 PM) :
Page 1: only the tables are the same. All graphics are different.

Page 2 and beyond... nothing is similar.

FletchCore (02:37 PM) :
you had this in your hand and you chose to totally fuck me.

FletchCore (02:38 PM) :
obviously neither one of you has any respect for me, my work or anything and this has been a scam. You people have no concept of design, of "work" and you think you can stomp on my livelihood???

FletchCore (02:38 PM) :
i cannot believe you are telling me, I think you decided to partner up with me straight to use me for board persona.

FletchCore (02:38 PM) :
when will you make your goodbye post?

DonovanPhillips (02:39 PM) :
If I was trying to stomp on your livelihood I wouldn't have ever given you a percentage of the NCG tour.

FletchCore (02:39 PM) :
You have stomped on me for months now.

DonovanPhillips (02:39 PM) :
I will likely not leave the boards. This is not resolved yet.

FletchCore (02:39 PM) :
You do NOT know how much work I turned away to work for shit for you.

FletchCore (02:39 PM) :
I could have done other things instead

FletchCore (02:39 PM) :
And now in the end im left holding nothing from you,

FletchCore (02:40 PM) :
you got tours and promo and have the audacity to complain to me about this shit????

DonovanPhillips (02:40 PM) :
How did I complain?

FletchCore (02:40 PM) :
You are right, is not resolved, and every letter i type on icq is a waste of time

DonovanPhillips (02:40 PM) :
I paid you, plus gave you a percentage.

FletchCore (02:40 PM) :
you and your partner made the choice.

FletchCore (02:40 PM) :
Expect DMCAs and papers Donny, thanks you and good bye

DonovanPhillips (02:41 PM) :
You wanted to know the conversation. You blew up before you and I could talk between US. Good bye it is.

DonovanPhillips (02:41 PM) :
I guess.

FletchCore (02:41 PM) :
No, you told me off, you told me you and he didnt not want to resolve it. you chose not me.

DonovanPhillips (02:41 PM) :
Since he is unwilling to budge, the next step is you and me. But if you want to just go to the boards, so be it.

DonovanPhillips (02:41 PM) :
Let's take it there.

FletchCore (02:41 PM) :
No, why dont you take care of me then?

FletchCore (02:42 PM) :
Your friend is worth that much, pay me off?

FletchCore (02:42 PM) :
I rather not go boards but dont tell me to fuck off about this Im not budging

DonovanPhillips (02:42 PM) :
He put those tours up last week as a test. If they do well, he plans to keep them. If not, he plans to replace them with something else.

DonovanPhillips (02:43 PM) :
The stuff I'm telling you now is just information relayed from my conversation.

FletchCore (02:43 PM) :
I dont care.

DonovanPhillips (02:43 PM) :
After it's all out, you and I can discuss how to deal with it from there.

FletchCore (02:43 PM) :
you will either take care of me or you both will be dealt with

DonovanPhillips (02:43 PM) :
You don't care? so you want to make irrational decisions based on PART of the information?

FletchCore (02:43 PM) :
you can square away with him after like Dean Capture said, you know thats the right thing.

FletchCore (02:44 PM) :
No, all i really give a fuck about is you, a guy i was doing business with is reponsible for a bunch of replications of sites i design for him and only got paid and FCKED out of a deal. you owe me mroe than just this bullshit runaround

FletchCore (02:44 PM) :
you take care of me, my mouth is closed, all is good see you in hell, i care not

FletchCore (02:44 PM) :
but you seem to want to talk more than deal with it.

FletchCore (02:44 PM) :
you brag about your money but you cant take care of me? its all bullshit, its all greed

FletchCore (02:45 PM) :
this fucking problem could be solved in no time, you guys want to test the tours and "see if you want to keep them?" gimme a break,

DonovanPhillips (02:45 PM) :
Talking is part of reaching an end.

FletchCore (02:45 PM) :
You just admitted you guys are testing the tours with my design, you owe me, period.

DonovanPhillips (02:46 PM) :
Fletch, my partner does not think it's your design.

FletchCore (02:46 PM) :
like its some trial or something?

FletchCore (02:46 PM) :
Then you need to either take care of me and forget about it, or he needs to change his sites

DonovanPhillips (02:46 PM) :
Page 1: tables are very similar. fonts are similar. Nothing else is similar.
Page 2: everything is completely different.

FletchCore (02:46 PM) :
where did he get the idea for the layout? you and he do not know anything about copyright. if he used my design as a example he is still stealing

FletchCore (02:47 PM) :
bottom line is, did I even upload a zip for you??? Did I even give you the PSD files?? the original layout is and has been on my server. You downloaded it without even getting a zip, so technically I never even gave it to you. You do not want to get technical.

DonovanPhillips (02:47 PM) :
You think you deserve full price on 9 sites because the tables on page 1 are similar? Is that the case?

FletchCore (02:47 PM) :
Look, i dont feel like geting into all this.

FletchCore (02:47 PM) :
You can either handle like a man or a crook.

FletchCore (02:47 PM) :
You choose

FletchCore (02:48 PM) :
Then what is your offer???

DonovanPhillips (02:48 PM) :
What do you think is fair? Consider the facts. It is a TABLE. It is NOT a copy of a DESIGN>

FletchCore (02:48 PM) :
You are missing the point, the ENTIRE layout is mine. What were they looking at when designing? My tour, GUILTY

DonovanPhillips (02:49 PM) :
What was copied? A table at most.

(CONTINUED NEXT POST)

(RESOLUTION CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST)

FletchCore (02:49 PM) :
The design is considered a body of "work" its copy, its html, its code, its graphics, all MINE

DonovanPhillips (02:49 PM) :
I'm asking you what you feel is a fair price for a table?

DonovanPhillips (02:49 PM) :
I don't think it's worth $4,500.

FletchCore (02:49 PM) :
we are not negotiating about tables, you can either be a man or crook, seems you are chosing slowly but surely.

FletchCore (02:50 PM) :
i put off that much work working on shit for you

DonovanPhillips (02:50 PM) :
Okay... take it to the boards. You are being entirely unreasonable.

FletchCore (02:50 PM) :
well whatn is your offer?

FletchCore (02:50 PM) :
you want me to make up an offer?? no, you call it, ill accept or not. simple

FletchCore (02:50 PM) :
i will be reasonable.

DonovanPhillips (02:51 PM) :
I'm thinking.

DonovanPhillips (02:52 PM) :
Hold on one second. I'm going to call someone for an opinion.

FletchCore (02:52 PM) :
i really wish youd just be real instead of trying to please other people aside from me which is who you should be

FletchCore (02:53 PM) :
im not a fucking criminal, im not a crook. you must admit that I have done nothing but be creative and eager about these projects

FletchCore (02:53 PM) :
i even STOPPED accepting tours from other people for you man.

DonovanPhillips (02:53 PM) :
I now need an opinion. I'm not operating on emotion or good will with you anymore. Now it's business. And there will be no more between us after this. I need to know what 9 tables are worth so I'm going to ask someone I trust.

FletchCore (02:53 PM) :
you HAVe to realize my angle, this fucking broke man,

FletchCore (02:54 PM) :
you rent really paying for tables Donny, you are paying for copying MY COPYRIGHT DESIGN

FletchCore (02:54 PM) :
you do not have legal right to allow copies, its simple

DonovanPhillips (02:54 PM) :
My good will ended with you end to professionalism. You took this to the boards without contacting ANYONE.

DonovanPhillips (02:54 PM) :
That is SO unprofessional.

FletchCore (02:55 PM) :
youre trying to call my work nothing but crap tables? you are insulting me while trying to negotiate, im unprofessional?

DonovanPhillips (02:55 PM) :
It was very unprofessional to take this to the boards, then threaten me.

FletchCore (02:55 PM) :
you can handle it, please why dont you,

FletchCore (02:55 PM) :
the unprofessional part is the entire situation

FletchCore (02:56 PM) :
so offer
/?

DonovanPhillips (02:56 PM) :
I'm going to handle it. Professionally. By getting an experts opinion. I'm having the designers that have the office next to me come over to give me an opinion.

FletchCore (02:56 PM) :
please get back to me when you can.

DonovanPhillips (02:56 PM) :
The do graphic and web design here in town and for companies including IBM.

FletchCore (02:56 PM) :
the grief and sttress this is causing me, and the clients I turned away for you is making me sick to my stomach DOnny.

FletchCore (02:57 PM) :
I really took you for more than that.

DonovanPhillips (02:57 PM) :
I'll be paying them for their expert opinion on this matter.

FletchCore (02:57 PM) :
Ill be waiting, simply get their opinion and hit me with the offer, show them all the sites and say you copied the design LAYOUT, not just tables.

DonovanPhillips (02:58 PM) :
I will be very honest with them.

FletchCore (02:58 PM) :
I have to go, I have clients that are following this and are sad to see this happen, you wont believe the support I have gotten.

DonovanPhillips (02:58 PM) :
You wouldn't believe the same support I've gotten.

FletchCore (02:58 PM) :
emails to deal with and clients to chat with, just hit me with offer

FletchCore (02:58 PM) :
Public support is the best ';-)

DonovanPhillips (03:00 PM) :
They'll be coming to my office in about an hour. I should have an offer for you in two hours.

DonovanPhillips (03:31 PM) :
I go to talk to them early. I went to their office. Just got back.
Message was sent. User is Offline.
The message will be delivered when user goes Online.

DonovanPhillips (03:31 PM) :
They are literally right next door. It didn't take long at all. About 20 minutes total.

FletchCore (03:32 PM) :
and?

DonovanPhillips (03:34 PM) :
The very short, condensed version (again, these guys do incredible stuff for places like IBM - which is one of their clients:

They said you no legal rights in this case. I explained that I didn't really care about the legality, I just wanted to do what's right. They said that if I
REALLY wanted to compensate him, they wouldn't pay more than $NUMBER DELETED AT FLETCH'S REQUEST to $NUMBER DELETED
AT FLETCH'S REQUEST per site.

FletchCore (03:34 PM) :
So do you want to compensate me?

DonovanPhillips (03:34 PM) :
Yes, I do.

DonovanPhillips (03:34 PM) :
$NUMBER DELETED AT FLETCH'S REQUEST

FletchCore (03:34 PM) :
What is your offer then?

FletchCore (03:34 PM) :
For principle $NUMBER DELETED AT FLETCH'S REQUEST

DonovanPhillips (03:34 PM) :
I'm taking their high number.

DonovanPhillips (03:34 PM) :
Okay, $NUMBER DELETED AT FLETCH'S REQUEST

FletchCore (03:35 PM) :
FIne, done, lets put this shit behind us and be on our way Donny.

DonovanPhillips (03:35 PM) :
By check, with a memo releasing further liability on the check.

FletchCore (03:35 PM) :
that is fine.

FletchCore (03:35 PM) :
of course

DonovanPhillips (03:35 PM) :
Who do I make the check out to and where do I send it?

DonovanPhillips (03:35 PM) :
I have your address, but don't know if you want it made out to you or your girl.

FletchCore (03:36 PM) :
PERSONAL NAME, ADDRESS INFO DELETED AT FLETCH'S REQUEST


DonovanPhillips (03:36 PM) :
Cool. I am loading the printer with a blank check right now.

FletchCore (03:36 PM) :
Ill sign whatever and mail it back. You have my word on this,

FletchCore (03:36 PM) :
Can we please keep amounts and all personal info from the boards?

DonovanPhillips (03:36 PM) :
The cancelled check will be all the signed docs I need, because of the memo.

FletchCore (03:37 PM) :
Let this go undisclosed,

DonovanPhillips (03:37 PM) :
Okay. No amounts or personal info.

FletchCore (03:37 PM) :
I will make a thread saying you have taken care of me, at an undisclosed amount you can use the design however you want.

DonovanPhillips (03:37 PM) :
Okay.

FletchCore (03:38 PM) :
See, noone will look bad Donny.

FletchCore (03:38 PM) :
Wasnt that hard to clear up.

DonovanPhillips (03:39 PM) :
What's your tax ID number again? I need to add that to Quickbooks for 1099s

FletchCore (03:40 PM) :
SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER REMOVED

DonovanPhillips (03:45 PM) :
The check is now in an enveloped, stamped, and placed into outgoing mail.

FletchCore (03:46 PM) :
Great

FletchCore (03:46 PM) :
Off to do some work, later

And that concludes this drama that never should have made it to the fucking boards to begin with... and which has resulted in my decision to no longer do work with a very incredible designer. Now I have to find a new one and am not happy about that.

I want to be compensated for wasting my time with this :)

Where do I send the fucking check?!?





























(can you tell I'm not too happy with my name being unnecesarily drug through the mud?)

Donny - from what I can tell there were mistakes made on both
ends of this issue. Fletch should have been a little more patient
in dealing with the situation and waited until all efforts were
exhausted to bring it to the boards - he chose to go to the
boards first before trying to resolve. That sucks a big one but
now you know how Fletch is.

Bringing shit to the boards is the fastest way to create drama, sig
views and in most cases... get your problem taken care of
quickly. It is not however the most professional way of doing
things.

Aside from all of that - I think you did the right thing in
compensating Fletch for his work. Apparently you thought you
did the right thing too or you would have told him to get fucked.
I personally would have liked to have seen you make him an offer
last night before that whole thread got out of hand. I would
have liked to have seen you guys get on the phone with each
other, discuss the details, talk about resolution and keep
the partnership alive. That my friend is what "partnership" is
all about. Partners don't always agree, but usually they find a
way to agree to disagree and then move on. It's a shame that
you and Fletch are not able to do that - but for whatever reason
it's just not meant to be.

I'll give you two thumbs up for stepping up to the plate and
doing the right thing though :thumbsup :thumbsup

Okay, looks like there has been resolve.

Although not on the best of terms and after much unnecessary headache, looks like this is over. I don't have anything to say.

done.

I have work to address, and cant hang on the board tonight. So that is all.

It was impossible to resolve this last night, Dean, because I had no input from the third party involved.

And speaking of him, he wants me to be sure that I publicly state that HE thinks Fletch had NO legal OR moral rights in this case and wants everyone to know the money did NOT come from him. I promised I'd let everyone know.

Sorry to hear this bullshit is happening to you Fletch. I reckon you should out these fuckers.

You're a little fucking late there tiger.

Wow that was heated, but at least its resolved now.