the ndp will waste money. they want to increase spending, increase taxes to corporations(fail to see that businesses create jobs) and hope that they bring in enough money to offset increased spending. they're making assumptions that they'll bring in enough.

pretty dangerous stuff for a government to do, especially when the economy is doing ok.

it would be a long day in hell before i vote ndp. business drives the economy, not government.

I like Paul Martin, but have to vote conservative. Liberals spend way too much of my money. Being self-employed already means I need to put away far more money than the average person who qualifies for pension benefits etc., so I'm voting with my wallet.

:2 cents:

I used to be a Liberal.. but after all the shit the past few years.. fuck em.

I am not sure who I will vote for right now.. probably conservatives.

I agree that business drives not only the government but the entire economy, and of course many on the more socialistic side fail or refuse to see that. I guess one of my points is that there needs to be a better choice than just "the big two" parties, because going with either one means giving up a lot in certain areas and on certain issues.


At the moment I'm leaning towards the conservatives. Time will tell. I'm smack in the middle of a staunch liberal riding though, and the largest French community west of Quebec.

http://www.soyouwanna.com/site/pros_...uebecFULL.html

EIGHT ARGUMENTS FOR SOVEREIGNTY

1. The identity argument

Quebeckers are a people. Not all peoples need their own sovereign state, indeed, Quebeckers have for a long-time tried to operate within the Canadian federal framework. But Canada refuses to grant to Quebec its status as a founding people and the tools it needs to develop fully. It is time to come to terms with Canada's inherent incapacity to think of itself as a multinational state. It is time to cease dreaming that a constitutional negotiation is still possible. It is time for the citizens of Quebec to create a state that reflects their reality. This state, which seeks to encompass all those wishing to be its citizens, will be based on territory and a common language, it will recognize as constituents its First Nations and anglophone minority, and will continue to offer to immigrants citizenship in a community which fully respects their contribution to it.

2. The linguistic argument

Because a charter of rights inspired by individualist principles is entrenched in it, the Canadian constitution allows the laws of the government of Quebec to be contested before the courts. Quebec's linguistic laws have been constrained by this state of affairs. Sovereignty will place in a representative government responsibility for the promotion and protection of French. We would be in a position to adopt those laws we judge necessary, all the while respecting the rights of individuals and of the francophone and anglophone communities. The survival of French in Quebec is now assured; once we have the means of managing all aspects of the linguistic issue, we will be able to enhance the capacity of all the citizens of Quebec to live together.

3. The cultural argument

Even if small in number, Quebeckers include creative people who have made their mark on the world. But it takes an appropriate climate for people to continue to dedicate their life to culture. Governments, as well as businesses, must stop regarding financially supporting culture as an act of charity. Moreover, one must never forget that culture transcends the economy: it provides vital symbolic anchors; it nourishes the imagination of a community. In order to do so, it needs the freedom provided by its own assured space. One way such space can be provided is by a community self-confident enough to take pride in the creative people who disturb its complacency.

4. The solidarity argument

By giving themselves a country, Quebeckers will be laying down the foundations of a genuine solidarity which will encourage understanding among citizens even when their interests diverge. Solidarity creates a context in which individuals can see beyond their individual interests so that they are willing to do their part. This national solidarity is not just an idealistic slogan: it has real economic and social repercussions. It is generally agreed that the most serious economic and social problems facing Quebec are unemployment, poverty among women, school drop-outs, youth employment, the maintenance of social programs, the deficit and the debt. The solutions to these problems require that the various social actors work together, and that every affected individual, enterprise, and organization accept to play their part. In this sense, the decision to become sovereign constitutes in and of itself a societal project, concretely reflecting the solidarity of the citizens, their desire to work to establish a more just society.

5. The political legitimacy argument

It is only a fully legitimate government that has the margin of maneuverability necessary to deal with difficult social and economic problems such as deficits, debts and recessions. If the federal government have been founded on real solidarity rather than on the abstract concept of a Canadian nation, it would have had sufficient legitimacy to set in motion starting in the 1970s the minimal budgetary restrictions on social programs. Instead, and because it lacked the required legitimacy, it fell into electoralism, acceding, on occasion, to unrealistic expectations of the electorate, and giving in to demands of various pressure groups, as well as the lobbies of business and foreign investors. Quebec sovereignty will confer much greater political legitimacy: political power in Quebec will be the expression of a community which has taken on a common project.



6. The decentralization argument

In recent years, decentralization has become synonymous with organizational efficiency. In the context of a sovereign Quebec, decentralization will strengthen the powers of regional units closely linked to economic activity. In the short-run, decentralization of governmental institutions will result in savings from the elimination of duplication. In the longer term, it will increase efficiency because it will bring decision points closer to markets. This decentralization must nevertheless proceed with prudence and fairness: it must not make government power more irresponsible or arbitrary; it must instead aim to place power in the hands of the citizens affected by the decisions.

7. The argument of equality between the national communities

The Canadian government has not adequately acted to assure that economic development is distributed equitably between the main national communities. As a result of federal government policies over more than 30 years (national energy policy, auto pact, centralization of R and D support, absence of protection for pharmaceutical patents, and -- obviously -- high interest rates) the Toronto region has become the nerve centre of the Canadian economy. In contrast, a multinational central state would take into account the principle of equality between the peoples which constitute it. It is time to take control of the political and economic levers held but not appropriately exercised by the federal government.

8. The constitutional argument

Following the illegitimate repatriation of the constitution in 1982, Quebec found itself excluded from the Canadian family. By this constitutional coup de force, Canada restricted Quebec's power to act on language (the Canada clause) and imposed a charter of rights based essentially on individual rights and which confided considerable powers to judges nominated by the federal state. It imposed this without a referendum, and against the expressed wishes of Quebec and its national assembly. In doing so, Canada violated the pact on which the federation was originally founded. Since that time, all negotiations designed to reintegrate Quebec into the constitutional fold have failed, thus demonstrating the irreconcilability of the aspirations of Quebec and Canada. Canada now sees the Quebec people as a cultural minority among others, even though Quebec is, and considers itself to be, one of the country's founding peoples. There is no other way to resolve the dispute on this fundamental question than for Quebec to become sovereign and adopt a constitution that reflects its true nature .

lol....:helpme

[QUOTE]Originally posted by CDSmith
[B]What NDP overspending? They've never been in power federally in all my 41 years of life, when have they had the chance to spend anything?


I don't want to even give them the chance.

BG

Oh man.. I don't even want to start on the follies of separatism....
I DID see an interesting sign on the Bonaventure - from the Quebec Teacher's Union...
Basically, it said 'stop immigration.. immigration destroys quebec culture, and wastes money...'
hahahahahah

Eitherway, it's amazing how racist Quebec is...
Indians, Asians = lower life forms...

Eitherway, separatism is bad... as has been seen twice now, more than half the province does NOT want to separate... and it would be a HUGE waste of money....
Quebec government is already corrupt..
Look at the huge tax rates, and then look at the quality of medicare, and the quality of roads (regulated by the province...)

As soon as you hit the US boarder, roads become smooth..
As soon as you hit the Ontario boarder, roads become smooth...
Throughout Quebec, you can hide children in pot holes!!!

I think I'll vote for whoever is willing to spend more on infrastructure and not waste it spending resources to separate :)


And provincially, NDP threw BC into huge debt in the early and late 90's...

Bravo for the great post. Die-hard separatists are so redundant, annoying, insideous and, well, basically they lost (twice) in two referendums yet they STILL will not shut the fuck up about separating. Basically I say the remaining separatists can get on a barge and paddle to a deserted island and start up their own country there. They are living in Canada on Canadian soil, either deal with that and be happy or fuck off out of here.

Trouble is, no other country on Earth would want them, including France.

But in this discussion we're talking federally. You can't compare provincial NDP parties to federal parties. Here in Manitoba we now have an NDP government and they are actually doing quite well in fixing up all the shit that the Filmon regime (PC) pulling over the previous 8 years or more. I was so happy to see them get ousted and booted out of office it wasn't even funny, and the Liberals of Manitoba were almost wiped off the map a few elections back, they aren't in a position to form government here yet. The NDP aren't spending like maniacs here as far as I can tell, but they do seem to be keeping the majority of Manitobans happy.

I waited all my life to vote for Chretien and he left! And I really hate Paul Martin!!! So Fuck The Liberals! There's no way in hell I'm going to vote for The Parti Quebecois for a Federal Elections. I don't know/trust the other parties. So my vote goes to the....
http://www.elections.ca/pol/images/mari.jpg

50 Canadians voting

50 canadian all voting liberal

51 :1orglaugh

most of this is nothing more than bullshit. canada is made up of a variety of different people with different cultures. quebec should embrace not only being a quebecker, but also being canadian.

leaving canada doesn't solve problems. governments are not efficient, it doesn't matter where you live.

fact is, the grass may look greener across the street, but once you cross the street you may find out it actually isn't greener than where you left.

Very good point.

http://www.elections.ca/pol/images/mari.jpg

This party got my vote :rasta

this party will not doing anything better than any other party on this point, except conservatism cause there against it

We're different in what? Because we also speak french and we have different views on some subjects? That's crazy. Do you also think that Southerners in the US should create there own country? Afterall they're quite different. What's next? Immigrants who come to Canada should create there own country because they don't have the exact same values? I mean seriously.

Life is not about having it your way and only caring about yourself.

SC will get it this year:2 cents:

If you don't want the conservative party to win, you better vote Liberal. We really don't want people who compare abortion to Nick Berg's beheading to be running our country.

What I dont understand about the bloc is how can they defend the interests of Quebec if they have limited seats in the house of commons. They wont even be in the opposition, just a few dudes complaining and noone is listening or caring Thats whats I dont get. What have they done thats significant? Can someone tell me, because I dont know.

Im still wondering if I'll vote for NPD or Liberals. Im afraid conservatives will turn into another Bush. The last conservative party we had put the country into a huge deficit and the Liberals had to clean shit up.

What are you fucking Crazy......... Liberals ??? Your other choice is not much better eighter :1orglaugh

If any province should seperate it's Ontario. We would be rocking if we didn't have to carry all that dead weight around. We'll invite Alberta and B.C. along for the party. The rest of the provinces can create their own welfare country and speak whatever language they like :)

Seriously though, this election will be interesting. The Conservatives are gaining a lot of ground which I didn't think was possible. I'm not sure who I'll vote for. I was going to vote Liberal, but McGuinty really pissed me off and Martin's guilty by association. Harper looks like he's into bukkake, and I will never vote NDP. So what else is there?

Hahah, sorry pal... Ontario's still racking up debt as well ;-) And also has large equalization payments it receives... Alberta's one of the only provinces making a bunch of money ;)
Alberta, one of the territories, and Saskatchewan...
Of course, the premier of Alberta is a damn idiot.. and mentioned separating at one point.. heheh.. 51st state....

you got that fuckin right!.. they need to actually move the hole government away from frog land ottawa then things would be better off in the long run. look what happened to the jobs and population in montreal and the big corps ran away it;s just a deadend now.. it was thriving years ago good clubs/bands all but gone mostly..:(

there's really know one out there to do a better job than Paul Martin.. :winkwink:

uh llama, last time I went to Toronto, it was 12 degree versus -10 in quebec. Get a clue.

Canada leech and keep.

European Union style is better to me. I never heard of an european country hating another one. But they are all independant though.

uhhhh.. what??? you saying that the roads are bad just cause it gets colder in QC??
hahah

:1orglaugh

You must be talking about Regina. Montreal has never been so alive and economically healthy.

Le bloc colisse:2 cents:

the fact is that all parties are paid off by big business in order to manipulate their agenda's.

Lib/pc/ndp/block - no matter who gets in power, the organizations set up under them are still going to remain the same. NO one is going to get fired in health care or LCBO / hydro - so its merely a surface change.

Oil companies OPEC run our prices - if the government would use our own oil then our prices would drop, but we cant.

so far, the only party that isnt affected by this is the green party because no one has bothered to buy them off.

face it kids - no matter who we vote for nothing is going to change - the people who run this country are not a political party - rather have large check books

100% for it
i dont want to separate from Canada because i hate people from BC or Ontario or whatever... but fact is we have different point of view on a lot of subject just look about decriminalisation of marijuana, in Quebec, a large % of the population is for it, not the case in Alberta by exemple, in a sovereign Quebec, it would allready be done, but cause this is a federal law, we cant :P
The only people i hate are stupid racists calling us "frogs" :321GFY

so we should just break off into different countries?

atlantic canada, quebec, ontario, alberta, prairies and bc?

yep, but i think maybe put alberta manitoba and saskatchewan together, so we could all make our laws to fit our difference and still be a strong economy together :2 cents:

ahah you are a stupid sheep.. a tool... you had to go search on the web for reasons why Quebec should seperate.. The PQ made a nice list of bogus reasons so sheep like you can know why you are actually a seperatist... Cant you find reasons by yourself? Now you coming with decriminalisation of pot? :1orglaugh :1orglaugh Its something the federal governement is working on right now.. and other provinces support it.. Get a clue :2 cents:

a broken up canada won't be stronger...

alberta and bc are too resource dependant imo.

weed and some other soft drugs should be legal and sold by the government. the revenue thats lost in the black market is huge. why alberta is so right wing i'll never know. but even in a small region there are people who don't agree, should they all seperate as well? should we split ontario into two countries, those who agree to legalizing weed and those that don't. then make more countries based on different views?

instead of bickering about bs, look for solutions for the future. so much was wasted on quebec seperation. if those energies were put into managing the province, quebec would be better off today. but politicians there were so hell bent on seperating they didn't address the real issues, then instead of admitting their incompetence, they blame being canadian for their problems.

Nah.. It won't be stronger at all..
As I've mentioned multiple times before, Alberta is the ONLY province bringining in strong revenue...
2 other provinces bring in a LITTLE more than they spend...

and the rest of the provinces, even with equalization payments (coming from the 3 profitable provinces), still aquire debt....

Ontario and Quebec both rack up HUGE debt... Ontario is better though..
(I believe provincial debt averaged per capita is under $2000 for Ontario, and over $12,000 for Quebec..)

Long story short, Eastern Canada would be a hell hole or poverty, and Western Canada would be a new Oasis....
except maybe BC... but they'd all be too high to notice ;-)

Quebec isn't trying to get out anymore? ;-)

:Graucho

Paul Martin is my neigbour ( Easton Township cottage) . I met him and he is a nice person. He is a very capitalist person.