Thai Boxing is up there for sure. Those guys are wicked to watch.

I had fun with Tang Soo Do while i was stationed in Korea for 2 1/2 years of the 3 I was there...


I can kick ass in a 'leg fight' scenario but I know I lack hand and ground skills....I will certainly look into BJJ and a few others for filling in my gaps...another art I enjoyed messing with was Kyo Ku Shen Kai....again a lot of leg fighting....

I'm a fan of leg fighting as I don't walk my my arms, and don't like to hurt my lil knuckles but I'll bust my shin right on someone's knee or thigh or their shin in a heart beat ;)



:winkwink: :thumbsup

Have you idiots that reply negatively to the steven segal aikido conversation even seen the movie i just told you too see where you will see FULLY RESISTING OPPONENTS. This is just hopeless talking about. Watch the movie, then get back here and embaress yourselves some more.

Are you talking about his "fully resisting" STUDENTS? i.e. the randori situated in his dojo? If so, yes.

I have yet to hear of any Aikido school that trains under randori. Tomiki Aikido is the only one that has tournaments, and I've seen clips of them. Not very impressive, looks like Judo.

As for why Aikikai Hombu is what I use, it's simple. It's what was brought up, in conjunction with Steven Segal. Who is a joke.

Do a quick search on Judo Gene Lebell and Steven Segal. I bet Segal wasn't too happy shitting himself after Lebell choked his ass out.

Yah seen the movie. It's not martial arts, it's called synchronized dancing.

I'm very familiar with the Gene Lebell story as well as others and know of 2 more people personally that took him out. He makes a good movie show, but not in the real world.

There's varying definitions of "randori". In Judo, it's a competition. In aikido, it's generally a multiple attacker situation...a drill to reflexively use your techniques when you don't know what the attack is or who it's coming from.

I used to get pissed off and challenge *anyone* that says aikido was ineffective. It still get's me mad, but I understand that there's A LOT of bad Aikido out there, so if that's all someone's been exposed to, then I guess I can understand them thinking that. But, REAL Aikido is effective and powerful. Before you criticize Aikido in general, see what the good stuff is.

Jiu jitsu to attack, aikido for defense! and don't forget Tai Chi to keep your body elastic and dynamic all the other times but you fight with that gorilla! :thumbsup

You can be a martial arts expert. You can be a wrestling expert. You can be a handgun expert. You are getting your dojo philosophies a little confused. Are you saying Bruce lee was not a martial arts expert?

As far as Seagal is concerned, I didn't think you would be able to back up your statements about buying his rank with facts. I was right. He wasn't rich until he became a movie star. He wasn't a movie star until he was an EXPERT at aikido. Yes, you can be an expert at Aikido.

An "expert" implies someone that has mastered an art, which in turn implies someone who has learned everything about that art. You can never learn everything...that's impossible. Morihei Ueshiba O'Sensei himself stated he was just "a student of Aikido" on his death bed. If he thinks of himself as just a student who has not mastered his art, then no one can claim otherwise.

I really don't need to talk about Seagal (or Segal) anymore...Like I said, I don't really care what your opinion of him is. That's great that you admire him, but I most assuredly do not.

a chainsaw is useful..

No, expert means the following:

A person with a high degree of skill in or knowledge of a certain subject.

So, yes, Steven Seagal is an expert in Aikido.

You throw accusations about the man, I just wanted you to back it up. If you can't, you might want to not say bad things about people when you don't have facts. They should teach that in your dojo as well as the definition of words like expert.

I know the definition of "expert", which is why I said "implies". And even by your definition, I don't think he's an expert.

This is why I don't respect him:

(1) I think it was '73 or '74, in a seminar that MY sensei attended (he's still got the sign-in book), Seagal was there as a green belt (whatever that is in aikido...I've never seen a style that uses green belts) and served as uke for his sensei in a demonstration. He *actively* tried to make his sensei look bad by resisting all of his techiniques. Now, this is a valid training method, but not one you use to discredit your sensei during a demonstration...that is completely dishonorable. My Sensei was pissed and requested to use Seagal as uke when his demonstration occurred. He did and slammed him and another uke around until Seagal couldn't take anymore. (btw, don't bother asking for my Sensei's name, because I won't give it on an adult board.)

(2) He has time and again lied that he has trained with Morihei Ueshiba O'Sensei. This never happened; in fact, he's never even met O'Sensei...the furthest into the US O'Sensei went was Hawaii in '61, and Seagal didn't go to Japan until after his death. When Kisshumaru Ueshiba O'Sensei was asked about his claims to have met and studied with O'Sensei, he simply replied "I wonder if that could be...", which is the very Japanese way of saying, "that's such bullshit".

(3) He also lies about his involvement in the CIA. That never happened and was exposed by Gary Goldman. There were rumors that he even tried to hire someone to kill Goldman. Seagal basically stole the stories of someone else, claiming it to be his.

(4) We asked Kisshumaru Ueshiba Doshu at a rare and private conference at Aikikai Hombu about his impression of Seagal...I can't remember if this was before or after his test...he just basically passed it off, but it was very obvious he wasn't impressed. In an interview with Doshu, he was asked about Seagal's techniques and he replied, "he speaks very good Japanese."

(5) He is rumored to have married into most of his rank, since his wife's (Miyako Fujitani) mother owned the dojo and had no related male head. Fujitani even stated in an interview once that the only reason he got his black belt is because the examiner fell asleep on the board. Now, I personally don't trust the statements of a woman scorned, so who knows the accuracy of her statement. And his SHICHIDAN rank was bought for a large sum of money...for the record I never stated he bought all his ranks...but this one he did, and from the observer account I received, it was horrible test.

(6) He is a notorious Hollywood loud-mouth braggart, which got him into trouble on the set of one of his movies, when one of his own stuntmen, Gene LeBell, challenged him and choked him out TWICE with the SAME technique. LeBell got fired and Seagal continued boasting how great he supposedly is.

(7) At a party in Atlanta (I think Atlanta), he tried to disrespect Dan Inosanto by slamming a nikyo on him when Inosanto was allowing it to be done to him. Inosanto's student, Francis Fong, was pissed. When Seagal approached Fong and asked him to "grab my wrist", Fong slapped him across the face and told him he'd fight him for real. Seagal says, "no, no...just grab my wrist". Fong slapped him again and challenged him directly for insulting his teacher. Seagal cowered back and refused. This tale come direct from the source, btw...

(8) On the set of "Fire Down Below", which was shot in the hometown of a good friend of mine in Kentucky, he was mouthing off. Some of the local rednecks challenged him and threatened to kill him. He cowered down and backed off...then refused to stay in that town during the movie shoot...they had to fly him in every morning from a major city SEVERAL miles away.

(9) And now he's just fat and sloppy, which gives you an idea how much he must train now.

The martial arts are built on humility, honor and respect. It is obvious these are not qualities that Seagal possesses. So, no, I don't respect him, nor do I think much of him as a martial artist.

If you ever watch a steven seagal movie, then you will know by looking at his technique that his is no poser. You do recognize that his is a skilled Aikido player, right?

I don't know from Gene Lebell, and Seagal may be an ahole, and a jerk, who cares. That is probably why you hear so many stories trying to discredit him.

The greatest aikido artist in the world could probably be choked out by a really good judo or jiu jitsu player. A bunch of rednecks threaten to kill you, and see if you wanna be a hero. I love these stories. Were the rednecks armed?

Seagal is a martial artist, and that does not mean he can beat everyone up. If he could, then he would have probably made his fortune in NHB fighting. No, he is a movie star, that happens to be, IMHO a very skilled aikido player. I personally don't think aikido is that great of a street fighting art, do you? If so you would see more aikido in the UFC.

Jiu jitsu is also good for defense.

nothing like having your katana and wakizashi around for a bar fight

Watch his fight scenes and watch the people in the background. Are the people walking around suddenly RUNNING at breakneck speeds whenever he does his techniques? That's because they speed up the film. The best thing I can say about his techniques is he seems to stay relaxed, but it's also not the street. And it is watching his techniques that I say they have flaws. Now, I'm sure his techniques will work well against his much smaller, willing ukes, but what about a bigger opponent? Sorry, buddy, I'm just not in agreement about how good he is.

I do think Aikido is a good street fighting art. I think 98% of the Aikido being taught out there is not. But true Aikido is, as taught by the founder. Come to my dojo, and I'll show you...not as a challenge, but as a learning experience.

And for the record: street fighting and NHB are VASTLY different. Good Aikido works great on the street...in NHB with non-committed attacks, you need to supplement/initiate with atemi (strikes) which are a part of Aikido...despite what many dojos believe. I used to do NHB and shootfighting for a short time and found the elements of Aikido priceless.

Boy Howdy! Lots of testosterone flying in this thread - plus some good discussion.

I'm no expert/master/whatever of any of the arts but I did do a bit of study in Okinawa with the RyuKyu (sp? been a while) styles. A form of chinese boxing that the Okinawans adapted into their own style including the use of basic farming/fishing tools to combat the Samari Warriors that would come to the island to test their skills. The original masters of these styles developed "fists of stone" with the ability to punch straight through the body armor of the samari and crush their heart.

It's boxing with grappling combined and very deadly. If you're into toe-2-toe fighting style check it out and find a good dojo. If/when a fight goes to the floor against an expert in this form/style it's usually the oponent falling limp and lifeless.

KEMPO? IDEAS?

Does anyone know anything about it? I have been thinking of Thai Boxing but I believe a combination would be the best. Here´s an extract from a web site:

"Goshin-Ryu Kempo is an all-round and effective Martial Art with it's foundations in Karate, Ju Jutsu, Taekwondo and Thai boxing. Technically, Kempo crosses the traditional boundaries you often see within the Martial Arts world. Here you find everything you normally need training in two or three different Arts to recieve; everything from kicks, punches and blocks to throws, grappling and how to break free of a hold. All this mixed together to suit us in the West and the social climate we live in today."

Willing Uke's fill your Dojo, I'm sure. I doubt very seriously your aikido dojo is training you for the street. Unless you go full contact, and the goal is to incapacitate your uke in the shortest time possible, then you are training in an art, not a self defense method.

Whatever training you took with you to NHB or shootfighting, Aikido was not the only system you practised. I love aikido, and of course the elements are priceless in handling your body, and an opponents body. By itself, I disagree that it is a good art for the street. Everyone on the street doesn't commit to attacks. They fake and do many things untrained fighters don't do.

jeetkunedo :thumbsup

Kung Fu
Wing Chun
TRADITIONAL WING CHUN KUNG FU! :thumbsup

IMHO

You don't know anything about my dojo, so don't try to make assumptions. My Sensei grew up fighting everyday in the streets, and he brings that point of view into the dojo to prepare students for the streets. Chances are what you've seen is the 98% of Aikido that is not street effective, but don't over generalize. Before you start throwing accusations around, take me up on my offer and come visit me. Again, this is not ego bullshit...just let me show you good Aikido in a friendly environment to open your eyes.

And how much do you think a beginner is going to learn by having a constant and completely resisting uke IN ANY ART? If you wanted to be a weight lifter, you don't start off by throwing 500 lbs on the bar...you have to work your way up to learn proper technique and build your muscles gradually. Martial arts is no different. So sure; there's going to be some cooperation at some point in the dojo...but only to the point to teaching students proper technique...not giving them techniques that won't work.

But I will agree with you on one point. While Aikido by itself I think is very powerful in the street, it's even more powerful when supplemented with more strikes (Aikido has strikes, but not as extensively as other striking arts) and ground work. So yeah, I'm not purely an Aikidoka, but I consider myself primarily an Aikidoka.

And since we're on the subject, let me dispell a common misconception about Aikido. Aikido LOVES fully committed attacks, but don't require them...You can do Aikido as an initial move on an unattacking uke if you read the situation that the fight is imminent.

As with any art, you'll find good and bad schools and real or fake instructors. Kempo is no different. But, real kempo is powerful.

My point exactly. Almost all martial arts work in a friendly environment.

Here are the rules. You don't know when I am going to do this, but, I assault you with or without a weapon (you don't get to know). My goal is to take your life, your goal is to protect it using only aikido. If you admit you would not, then we agree. Like I said, I love aikido (more aiki jiu jitsu) and think it is a wonderful art.


I assumed you had many willing uke's in your dojo, since you chastised Seagal for resisting in an earlier post. I have trained in enough Dojo's to know that you need willing uke's, but training in a dojo, and fighting under an adrenal stress situation are two very different things.

I'm a 10th dan black belt in fu ckoy mot hafuck ker! The most leathal martial art. It is originally from China. Practiced only by the ninjas.

if you want to know what martial arts to take, just look at what UFC and Pride fighters are using and go with that. These are the guys that actually know what the fuck is going on, and the early UFC's did style v. style, you can look up the results.

what you're going to find is that BJJ and Muay Thai are your best bets BY FAR....

Steven Segal LOL

I'm just saying I didn't want you to think I was challenging you. If that's something you want; I'm game for anything. And if you'll recall my previous post I chastised Seagal for actively trying to make his sensei look bad. A demonstration among your sensei's peers is NOT a time to check out his waza. Did you note that he also served as uke for my Sensei during that same round of demonstrations? The outcome was vastly different.

My personal goal is not to defend myself using "only aikido", because I'm not "only" an aikidoka. I asked my Sensei once that I was concerned that during situations, I couldn't "only use aikido". My Sensei's reply was, "If you could *only* use Aikido then you've trained wrong. You should train to react reflexively using the best techniques available from your arsenal for that situation. For that particular situation, maybe Aikido is the best...maybe karate...maybe a combination. But the point is: your body should respond with maximum efficiency and effectiveness, using whatever techniques are appropriate, IF you've trained correctly. You are not purely an Aikidoka, so your training isn't to respond purely with Aikido...not if you're in proper mindset (mushin) and responding reflexively."

And you're right: The dojo and the street are very different situations. The funny thing is, the street is usually easier. When ukes in the dojo resist, they do so with knowledge of the techniques. The guys in the street have no idea, nor do they usually have the reluctance to commit out of fear of the oncoming fall.

:1orglaugh Chinese Ninjas

NHB and street fighting are very different. But I agree that BJJ and Muay Thai are very effectively systems. I wouldn't want to be exclusively BJJ, since you are rarely guaranteed a one-on-one fight in the street, but it's an absolutely vital supplemental art and a fantastic primary if you have some stand-up as well. Muay Thai is awesome for infighting especially.

BJJ/Wrestling and MT/Boxing are the only arts with a substantial amount of evidence supporting their effectiveness. Other arts rely on questionable "My teachers brothers friends cousin kicked so-and-so's ass" stories. Basically you are making a large investment of time in a discipline that has no proof that that investment will have any return.

I'm a lean 230 with 12 years of powerlifting/highland games training 2 years of MT and four years of BJJ under Renzo Gracie and I have NEVER "needed" that training. I've used it, but that mythical unarmed one-on-one unavoidable confrontation with their girlfriend watching that martial artists have wet dreams about just does not occur very often in real life.

Single unarmed combat is a social convention of a very small portion of our population. I go to Asian parties here in NYC occasionally and I am very polite, eight 140lb Asian dudes can kick my ass no problem. With other demograpics I'd be stabbed or shot if I started trouble. In fact if I wanted to get into a one on one fight I'd probably have to hop on a train to the Upper East Side and find some other young white guys who share that background in order to manage it. Why would most people fight me one on one? That's a way to massage your ego not teach someone a lesson. Someone really needs to be hurt you don't challenge him to fisticuffs you kick him down a flight of stairs, pour a beer on him and let him explain it to the police.

Considering the years and thousands of dollars spent training I cannot think of any discipline with a worse return. Spend all that time and money to protect the $100 in my wallet from crazy homeless dude with a knife? So I can be a dickhead and beat someone up for looking at my girl or spilling a drink on me? Martial arts only have a proven track record when it comes to single unarmed combat, nearly every time I have seen that ocurr both participates were being egotistical dickheads and getting carried away over something that could have been fixed with an apogly, a few beers and a handshake.

There are better ways than martial arts to get in shape, martial arts are expensive insurance against a usually entirely avoidable and statistically very rare danger. The only reason I can think of to train them is because they are fun and the competition is enjoyable. At which point the effectiveness of various arts is a moot point just how much you enjoy them.

Taser.

How does resisting a technique make the sensei look bad? Because it doesn't work as well without a willing uke.

I'm not cyber challenging you to a duel to the death. I know you weren't doing the same. They don't allow buddies to crack your skull with bats, knives and guns in NHB.

The street is easier, if you are talking about a baseball fight. I'm talking about self defense.

I agree 100%. Martial arts are a tool in the arsenal. Being a trained fighter gives you an edge over an untrained fighter. The edge can be slight and offset by other factors, but it's just another tool. Can you talk your way out of trouble? Can you use lethal defensive tools? Martial arts is like the putter and pitching wedge in your overall self defense golf bag IMO.

Wrestling ??? Are you serious ???

Elli


A kenpo school.. tracy system perhaps?

2 Different Aikido styles, same uke, same resistance. He made his Sensei look bad by resisting; he did not make mine look bad. By extrapolation, you make the point that Seagal is from a bad style because his sensei required his willing assistance. You already know I don't think much of Seagal, but I don't think this proves anything. Heck, if I knew Renzo Gracie was about to put an ude juji gatame on me, I could make it considerably more difficult for him to get...I may not actually stop him, but it wouldn't make spectators think he got the technique effortlessly. Likewise, if Seagal knew what his sensei was about to do, then he could resist and degrade the image his sensei hoped to portray. Whether I agree with the whole "image" thing or not isn't the point...the point is a martial artist must have respect for his teacher, and this is simply not showing that respect.

I won't comment about the street thing, because what I say comes from experience, and I highly doubt it'll accomplish anything but another ongoing debate.

I think martial arts are far more useful than for just that "entirely avoidable and statistically very rare danger". Whereas Scardog stated martial arts are just a small part of a physical situation, I think the physical situation is just a small part of the martial arts. BUT, we all seem to have a very similar rationale that the best self-defense will always be avoidance.

In my experience, most fights are not gangfights. They are the result of someone in your circle of acquaintance hurling an unforgivable insult, or getting into your face so much that you're forced to do something about it on the spot. Or they fucked your girl without permission and without taping it for you. Or it's a drunk frat boy at a bar or someone else's drunk friend at a party. Or someone you know who's been talking too much smack.

I was in a LOT of fights when I was (much) younger, and 90% of the time it was a one on one confrontation for intensely personal reasons. All this bullshit about BJJ not being the best because you can't whip 10 men at once with it is just bullshit. There is no art that is better for multiple opponents because NO art will allow you to whip multiple committed opponents attacking all at once. Nothing except scared opponents is going to help you in that situation, you just have to start acting so crazy that they're afraid to bumrush you lol....

Even in the case of multiple opponents, with BJJ at least if you do get one you do serious, incapacitating damage instead of just kicking him or throwing him. Someone with a broken arm or dislocated knee isn't going to be back in the fight anytime soon unless they got heart like Tim Sylvia.

Wrestling is DEADLY. They'll take you down no problem, and usually stay mounted on you with no problem. It's hard to punch back when you're laying on your back eating knees and elbows the whole time.