I had checked out the figures before I posted.
http://www.angelfire.com/ct/ww2europe/stats.html

Thanks.

So did I.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004619.html

http://ww2bodycount.netfirms.com/

It's hard for Americans to accept that we are the enemy there. We are the imperialists that invaded them. We are the aggressors. We are the occupiers. We are wrong.

WE travelled THERE. Iraq did not attack America. Iraq was no threat to America. But that didn't stop Bush from bombing their homes and killing their children, and we have killed so many now that they will never forgive us and they will never stop fighting until we are gone. You would defend your homeland too.

I hear some Americans talk like we are doing them such a huge favor, by paying to rebuild what we destroyed in the first place. That doesn't make us the good guys. It makes us colonizers.

Bush fooled much of the US with his vague patroitic rhetoric and invoking the gods of 'Jesus' and 'Democracy', but it's not going to convince the people living there defending their nation against a foriegn army that continues to slaughter them. Every person we kill turns another family against us.

We shouldn't be allowed to label this assault on the world as 'preemption' just because we're America. Iraq didn't hit America first. It is not 'defending' when there was no imminent threat. We sent our soldiers to their lands. In a war, whoever crosses the border first are the hostiles. This was an unprovoked attack and, as tough as it is to stomach, that makes us the bad guys.

Go ahead and call me a traitor. I am saying exactly what Germans should have been saying 65 years ago. We must be willing to accept awful truths and acknowledge the misdeeds of our leaders, lest we become accomplices to their crimes.

And as I pointed out your figure represents KIA's not the total of Americans lost in the war.

Okay, what happened to the other 110,000 people?

:(

You of course are entitled to your opinions and conclusions...just be aware that that does not make them right...or justified.

Great post, you are spot on!

:thumbsup

Desease...accidents...executions...starvation...et c. etc.

If you want an accurate picture of the real effects of war on the Iraqi people as a whole the only way to get that is to travel there and see it for yourself, otherwise speak directly with people who had first hand experience, actually being overseas.

The only real commentary here that I put any weight behind is the_wizz's because he is talking about first hand accounts that he has received from friends. That kind of information is the only kind you can really trust, after all, remember, the media is a business, it has no journalistic integrity and if you honestly believe that it does on any large scale you need to seriously re-examine your beliefs. With that said, if the_wizz is telling me that he has friends who say the situation actually has quite a few bright spots I'll give him some weight.

After all what makes for more headlines, more sold newspapers, and more hours of watched TV, a new power plant being opened, a bridge being built, or an American hostage being beheaded.

Just ask yourself when was the last time you saw a thread on GFY boasting to be first about having the video of a hospital being opened in Iraq, and compare that to the fanfare that occurs when a terrorist kills a hostage.

theKing:

If you think that is a balanced assessment - ya are miles out of line.

What do you think guys do when their families have been blown to bits? Say "shit happens" and forget it?

I'm sure you will find many who have very serious problems with the US and are resolving them with a few RPG's. Sure as hell, if that happened to me, I'd be killing every last asshole I could find until they were out of the place.

Your assessment reminds me of the days Rumsfeld claimed this was "just a minority band of thugs". Another "balanced judgement".

I have little doubt the US will be doing one of these "departure routines" again shortly - tho maybe not before they have bombed the fuck out of a few more thousand and the US body bag count has increased.

Iraq and that region is not a place where there are "winners". These people have their own culture/customs which is their biz - not anyone else's. They have fought for many decades and grew up with a gun and some arms strapped around em.

This latest invasion is not going to "change minds" and make em love "western customs" and "democracy" as it is imposed. They clearly want the US out of the place along with the latest "interim government".

Sure, there are good intentions stuck in the middle of this hellhole, but people don't want to know "how it is" or "how it will be". They will make up their own minds "how it will be". You can't change minds easily (and certainly not by bombs), and in the meantime, they deserve the respect of their "ways".

They were living a culture long before the US was ever a gleam in someone's eye.

There is good and bad on both sides - there ain't no "innocents" in this lot. Some folks have a lot to answer for - on both sides.

When you sit back and look at the overall - the first blatant question has got to be - What the fuck is the US doing there in the first place? It has nothing whatsoever to do with a country miles away from Iraq. Same applies to Israel. Again.. another problem.

If folks minded their own fucking business in the first instance and actually started managing the shit in their own backyard, perhaps we would see nada of "anti US terrorism". There would be no reason for their "terrorism" or "hatred".

100:1 bet we ain't seen anything yet - this "war" ain't even started. That is a great pity - for those both outside and inside the US.

A few more months and we'll have the glimmer of how it *is* all another Vietnam - that is, when the "state of denial" changes into reality.


PS.. Afghanistan is the same.. a fuckup which cannot be managed. Won't bore ya with the usual "how opium is doing well" and "how only 9 million are on electoral roles". It's just so damned pathetic.

I too have more than twenty friends that I am in contact with(some of which I served with during my 12 years of service) that are currently serving in Iraq...or have returned from Iraq (most of them that have returned will probably be going back at some point)...and everyone of them report a different "big picture" than the media reports. We all know that the media reporting dwells upon the negative and not the positive...they think that is what attracts viewers and they are probably right about that.

If Im not mistaken the death toll for US troops in Iraq has just hit 1000 and alot of that is from friendly fire and mission accidents. The death toll in Vietnam based on various sources hovers between 48,000 and 58,000. Not to mention the landscape of the fighting is much different, and the politics of the time is very different as well. Although there are some similiarities between the two wars, and the main would be we are fighting a war in a nation that has nothing to do with us, the death tolls, circumstances, and everything regarding the two wars is vastly different on vastly large scales to seriously compare the two.

Let's see if the death toll will even hit 10K for US soldiers. That is not to downplay the war effort at all, but simply to say that Vietnam was a fuck up by all accounts left and right, while Iraq can still certainly be redeemed.

The reasons for war were obviously false, but we should have seriously questioned those reasons before we went to war, finding out they are untrue does nothing because we simply cant end our involvement over night, so lets focus on what we are doing there, instead of why we are there, when its obvious we are there because of a bunch of lies that none of us really cared about, until the time for change had already passed.

theKing:

King... this "media" stuff and "different pictures"... - that just don't stand up.

It is well-known what the hell is going on there, irrespective of the slants of media.

I sat and listened to a young man who was actually "proud" that he managed to shoot some folks while in Iraq. I wasn't the only one who was speechless listening to that shit.

Don't expect some solider to show a "big picture" - they ain't got a clue.

Don't expect the "leadership" to show a big picture either - they have lied persistantly about this. Next week they are announcing "Iraqi Flower Day" when all "insurgents" are going to throw petals over the US troops.

The whole world "knows" what is going on. That is the fundamental reason they want no part of it - at least until the US is outta the place and a legitimate government in place.

Ya can paint pictures till doomsday - rest assured, none of them are rosy scenarios - for anyone.

Maybe we should of waited for a Saddam regime WMD landed in your neighborhood?

Oh wait I forgot, there were no WMD's and Saddam was a good boy now.. hed never make more...

I will take the word of the boots on the ground...most of which I have served with and some of which I have known for more than twenty years...over any media report...or report from anyone else...thank you very much. They live what is going on every day.

liquidmoe:

That's the problem solving time - the *actual* solution to this shit. Sadly the track record on dealing with relationships/reconciliation/pacifying is very poor and flippant as fuck.

As for the "false reasons" - of that there is no doubt. Those involved need some justice. It ain't just all about Saddam.

How can *any* nation allow some idiot to take them into a war based on bullshit and ignorance?? Unbelievable - and also unbelievable this ass is actually standing for re-election and even has support of around 50% of the US population?

If they do elect him again - well.. the US deserves everything they probably got coming. One day maybe they will get a clue.

I don't buy into the left wing agenda that we were lied to and had no right to goto war in Iraq... Saddam, had terrorist ties... and he had potential to make WMD's... not to mention our allies where starting to do business with him again.. It is not like the left are trying to paint it.... That Saddam was a good boy.. he radically changed his beliefs and views and suddenly just wanted to run a peacefull nation... These same leftist seem to forget who stole his people's food for oil money to build palaces and who knows what else....

theKing:

I can't say King... don't know enough of em to make generalised statements. But I doubt from the little I have seen of US troops, that I'd take any "reasonable judgement" from.

Individually, I'm sure there are many good guys who can "assess", but we have one massive load of ... literally kids... who are being punted out there and possess absolutely nada experience of fuck all.

That is sure part of the problem - no "creds". It's like Rice said, "US forces are trained to kill, and that's what they should be doing". These kids can't "manage" things or relate to people - screw the concept of "peacekeepers".

It's even more sad when ya look at the ages on the death lists. Some asshole needs to be accountable for that shit. It has bugger all to do with "military law" - it's criminal.

Piker:

Exactly where is there *any* evidence that Saddam had "terrorist ties"?? Who's "terrorists" were they? bin Laden's?

Someone had some "potential to make WMD"s" means they need to be bombed to fuck??

What's with "our allies were starting to do business with him again"?? There some gripe about being left out?

What "your allies" did not do is "use" Saddam to do their dirty work in assasinating democratically elected members of other governments, supply him with arms to fight more wars (with Iran), and support his rise to power - when it suited.

To give an example of how the media reports events...a month or two ago a Division Commander that had recently returned from Iraq was interviewed. At one point the interviewer asked the General how well was the media doing at reporting events. He replyed by relating this story. One of the units in his command one one day were on the receiving end of two mortar rounds. That was reported my the media as the unit fell under heavy artillary attack. No artillary involved and two rounds from a motar does not consist of a heavy attack. The General also talked about the relationship between his troops and ordinary Iraqi's and he said for the most part the relationship was good in is AO.

I take all media reports from any source about any subject with a grain of salt. They mis-report...they use adjectives to exploit their reports to the point that there is actually little truth to what actually occurred...all to attrack viewers and increase the bottom line.

The basic problem are were the orders given to Sgt Massey as he stated, if so they are against the Geneva Convention and a charge of war crimes could be made.

I have a friend who was in Iraq as a Royal Marine Commando. His job was to go into villages and do a recce with his team. They would approach a village and Iraqia would rush out shouting "Soldiers" "Soldiers" "Soldiers" some holding objects they could not determine. They kept walking, at times he says they were terrified but their orders were to proceed.

US Marines in the same situation called in the airforce to level the village.

There to establish a democracy, get rid of terrorists and make the world a safer place?

Look at the difference between how the UK dealt with a terrorist war in Northern Ireland and how the US deal with it.


Look at what has happened in Yugoslavia and the disgust by the West of these tactics.

He had ties to "terrorists" orgs and was open about it. I have been an advocate for taking down Saddam within the first year of the cease fire agreements that he immediately broke. The US did not supply him with any arms other than a few rotary wing aircraft (not gunships) and indirectly with some cluster bombs...during the Iran/Iraq war. His weapons of war were supplied primarily by Russia...some by France...and some by Germany.

Clueless...you should not speak about things that you know absolutely nothing about. There was not a single statement made by the Sgt that is a violation of the Geneva Convention.

theKing:

Oh fuck!! I can't be bothered with the blinkered "one picture only" views.

Na.. all that is bullshit! I never read such a load of bullshit in a few weeks from ya King. "Rotary wing aircraft" - fuck me. Hitler was a kindergarten teacher and provided social services to his community in his spare time.

First.. the US spent months on end with him conspiring to assassinate members of the Iranian government when that country was a democracy. He evertually succeeded in this murder.

Second.. the US then aided Saddam into power in Iraq. Till this time, Iraq was the most "western orientated" country in the Middle East. Again.. it is clear why the US did this.

Third... The US then supplied him with PLENTY arms - in fact, with the express object of "using" him to attack Iran. This included "weaponary" we are not supposed to talk about.

The US did also not supply this weaponary "during" any fucking war, but prior to it, in an effort to arm him.

I wish to fuck you were "real" - I can't be bothered writing stuff that is common knowledge and not even disputed by your own government.

As for the "terrorist orgs that he was open about" - what fucking orgs and since when was Saddam open about fuck all? The main was a evil senile idiot - he was a little more preoccupied with "self" than some "terrorist orgs".

Why is it that only 50% of the US population consider "Saddam had links to terrorism" when the "admin" keep having to admit he did not - despite the fact they always try to "imply" this. It's called propaganda - and you are obviously an avid follower.

Sometimes when I read such utter dribble, I really think the US is some island, not in this world. The amazing ignorance (or maybe denial?) is deafening.

But then again... fuck me.. there is even dispute over your own history. Fat chance of getting the history of elsewhere right.

Here is proof that we were lied to,
that any sane person will accept.

http://www.bi30archive.org/extras/Po..._no_threat.asx

Osama hated Saddam. They are ideological enemys. Osama gave press interviews in which he called Saddam an "infidel" and a "bad muslim" and called for him to be overthrown. Saddam was secular. Osama cannot stand a secular government in the 'holy lands'. he hated Saddam almost as much as he hates Israel and America. Before the Kuwait incident, Saddam was a US ally. Saddam embraced US culture. Saddam waged war on Iran for fucks sake! Saddam was an enemy of Islam. Why is that so hard for the average american to understand still. He spent his whole life fighting the same groups we're fighting now. Yes, he was brutal, but "the enemy of your enemy is your friend." It is absurd to think that Saddam would do anything to help Al Queda. The only intelligence connecting them is a sketchy account of some meeting that was diplomatic in nature; much in the same way as we would meet with the Russians in the 80s, or maybe the North Koreans today. Sending an ambassador to find out what the other side is up to is not akin to working together.




Untrue. The world knows this now, and we also knew it before the war. See video link above.



The only reason Saddam was demonized for attacking Kuwait was because of Bush Sr's political backstabbing. Saddam asked our permission before taking military action against Kuwait and we gave him the green light. But then Bushs Saudi buddies got upset ... and the west is history.

Need proof?

http://www.chss.montclair.edu/english/furr/glaspie.html

Saddam was always our best asset in the middle east. He wasn't bad for Iraq either. He turned a darkages islamic blackhole into a modern civilization. He built infastructure, roads and hospitals (america doesnt even have free heath care), and made literacy mandatory (you go to jail if you dont learn how to read). He advanced public education and womens rights, allowed them to work and go to school. No, Iraq was no paradise, but he built a more progressive society than the theocracies around him.

click here for a quick history lesson about who Saddam is:
http://www.ericblumrich.com/thanks.html

charly:

It's the difference between a sane balanced mind and a neurotic spoilt brat in heat.

Personally I think the UK should just have told some lies about how wicked the people of NI are and sent 100 helecopter gunships to "cure" the problem - it would be in keeping with current US mentality. Insane.

The re-electing of Bush will do even more dammages

fucked up shit

Pig shit.

No, but they are trying to exterminate Falluja

Well...you have me convinced. Saddam is a great man indeed. FREE SADDAM. FREE SADDAM. FREE SADDAM.

On a serious note. You have your opinions and conclusions. I have mine...and I am of the opinion that we should not waited all of the years that we did to take him down. He should have been taken down within the first year of the cease fire...for breaking the agreements that he agreed to.

theKing:

Yeah.. noticed how undisputed facts are known as pig shit.

Is that what happens when your brain gets fucked?

If we wanted to exterminate Falluja...it would be done in a single day...and may eventually be done...along with all other sanctuarys.

Perhaps a majority of those people aren't dead end Baathists or foreign fighters and were no threat to US interests before the invasion.

Now they're full blown "terrorists"

They are only undisputed facts in your mind...but virtually everything in your post has been and still is disputed by any number of sources.

theKing:

Your opinion on any aspect is irrelevant - I'm pleased to say.

You got a severe "taking folks down" mentality...

Suppose that's why the US is fucked right now - sounds like that is the same mentality that was used in the "decision making process" - arrogance and ignorance.

What is your point? We are their enemy...they are ours...and they are the enemy of their people as they are killing far more of their own people than we are.

theKing:

That's nice to know.. always wondered who killed off the Iranian Finance Minister... it must have been Donald Duck.

It is little surprise you ain't got a clue...

that each action in Iraq is creating more enemies.