Yeah, well pay that with the unmentioned sales. Even a total affiliate prgram would have type in sales. If you get enought traffic for a 100 trials you are going to have sales with out a referral code.

Lightspeed is a great program and they pay me $30.66 per sale according to my stats remote. That is a 60% split. But I get nothing on upsales, crosssales, pop ups (most have my code) or emails. $35 on a PPS is certainly doable for them as I assume they are making bank now. Would they do move volume at the $35 PPS model and reduce the load on fixed costs? Maybe. Not dogging lightspeed, just using them as an example of someone who is able to do a $35 PPS and still make bank.

EXACTLY Wizzo - imagine if you were doing, lets say, 100,000 members / mo for a couple years. Now imagine that 2% of those folks are still billing from 24 months ago. That is 2,000 * $39.95 or roughly $80,000 :) That is from 1 month initial sign ups, 2 years ago! There is absolutely NO DOUBT that PPS work, what separates the men from the boys are those that can EXECUTE :) Fortunately that is a small list...

I was waiting a very long time for such a thread.
Thanks for bringing it up.

also what about members that try to cancel, but you offer them a lower priced option on the cancel form and they take it

Then add a few upsales, email offers, and Xsales and I think we might be on to something.... :cool-smil

Then get some sales from people coming back after a month or 2 and wham you have the thread titled "Ferrari or Porsche?"

there are many factors that are not put into weight.....
one is of course the volume that is mentioned above... but another one is the signups that no webmaster gets a credit for...
the no ref, no cookie, no whatever, type in kind of surfer that signs up...

you guys should know that when a surfer sees a cool ad for a site that interests him, he does not nec. click on the ad to give you guys a credit...
type in the url and there you go... a signup that means 100% profit to the program... and I can tell you from my own experiences with my own sites... you get a lot of those signups!

Very good point Wizzo. We have been collecting on revshares like SEG's site sweetloads for close to 4 years now.

This spreadsheet isn't to indict anyone, it is merely an internal tool with variables I came up with that can make one think about the PPS model and what would it take to make it profitable. As you or anyone can see, in order to be profitable, you can determine where additional dollars need to come from and/or ask yourself as a program owner, how can I increase trial conversions and retention numbers.

I mentioned these twice but notice how the program owners never seem to give a number for those? This is not shaving, it is just life. People look and shop and come back.

Trax - that is in my calculations called additional income, I call it www sales. As to other non referred sales ARS runs from 99 to 100% referral rate on referred clicks! If you have a technically sound system you should be VERY close to 100% :) I say that with 100% honesty and truth - in fact, today we're running at 99.5% That is pretty damn impressive!

Cool MArc thanks for that answer.

PS Alex, The 40 PPS on the model has too big of a jump in the loss column. I suspect an error

Yep... just read that...
so www sales or non refered sales should make a pretty nice part of a programs calculation.. asuming the site attracts the surfer and is non of those cookie cutter sites...
a site like milfhunter or bangbus barely needs promotion these days...

word of mouth (marketing) makes those a lot of money.

Well, one thing we cal all agree on.

Post a thread of this topic, and watch all the big boys start posting. Good stuff all. I give it 10 minutes before somebody starts posting Own3d pictures here and ruins it.

exactly...
and its not all people that like to click on ads...
still they might be interested in the site... and if the banner says...
e.g. "all @ xyz.com" the surfer might not be too lazy to type it in and check it out... :playboy

I'm looking at it now, tell where to be percise please. $40?

It's all about volume, inhouse traffic and "the tail"

I also have a spreadsheet that is very detailed that shows that the PPS model works and for the same reasons as Marc De I am not going to post it for everyone to see. You have to be a very good business person to make it work and you have to be willing and able to take a large loss in the initial months of the program as it takes a little while to even start breaking even just on the variable costs (not including fixed costs) but eventually it does come, sooner for those then others, but once it does come the rewards mount up and mulitply nicely at a large rate.

I do also agree that every program owner out there large or small wishes this industry operated only on a rev share model as it is more profitable to the owners but that would require every company in the industry to change because the one that didnt would have tons of traffic because (eventhough I am sure I will get arguments to this) most of the time the PPS model makes more for the webmaster.

great thread.

yup that and and upsells.

This is where investing heavily in very good domains pays off. If you have a really good short domain, your www income can take that additional income (that I have listed at 20%) to 25-30% This makes profits SOAR!

I can't stress enough, less that 1/2 of the battle is having the spreadsheet and creating those variables, the biggest part is executing on those variables...

And I agree, GREAT thread! :)

Great thread and I commend everybody who has participated in it. I like the examples provided. It would be great to see a spreadsheet of a PPS example other than the one Alex provided. Purely hypothetical just the way his was hypothetical. Nobody needs to know true values. It's just very difficult to read textually. A graphical presentation with numbers would be much easier to read.

Here:

($3,523.35) ($125,700.40)

The jump was 5 times 100 sales up to this point. and here it is 2k over the $35 spot.

Related issue if you guys make 1.87 on pop ups why do you cut $5 off my commsion when I opt out of them? This must help the PPS model. Those of us who don't use pop ups subsidize the other guys.

MarcDe, thanks for your input. Just going by the numbers you used. Would it be fair to say that PPS only works if it's used in junction with cross sales? Or extremely difficult?


100 sign ups
$4.95 trial
$39.95 monthly
$1.00 x sell
$39.95 monthly x sell
25% x sell opts

100 sign ups * $4.95 = $495
25 x sell opts * $1.00 = $25
35% trials convert = 35 * $39.95 = $1398.25
35% x sell convert = 8 * $39.95 = $319.60
Membership Income in 3 days = $2237.85 gross
Processing Fees, Refunds, C/Bs, Revokes = 20% = $1790.28 net

Mike33 - well all those numbers can be changed. If it was in a spreadsheet it would quickly tell you if you could make those changes and still be profitable.

The payout amount, the trial amount, the monthly amount, the x sell amount, x sells at all, trial to fulls, credit on secondary processors, etc...

I don't know how any program pays $30+ per sign up without the use of x sells. It makes things VERY tight.

In house traffic doesn't equate into the profitability of a PPS program. What you earn from your own traffic sources is a separate issue all together. Also, volume doesn't really equate to the profitability per sign up from commissions. If you lose $5 per sign up, doing 1,000,000 sign ups / mo is only going to lose you $5,000,000 / mo plus operations & overhead expenses.

I'm assuming by the 'tail' you mean the longevity of a customer rebilling? If so that is very correct...

Marc we definitely agree on what you just said about your own traffic is a seperate issue all together. You don't take from Peter to pay Paul : ))

Thanks slapass...even math minors make errors....even though I love numbers, I guess that is why I didn't major in it...

Any response to this? Also the $ made on the consoles is going down thanks to browser upgrades. Not too horrible on the $35 dropping to $30 but Silvercash and some others can just make you puke to get 4 sales in a day and not break a hundred.

Also notice how the $40 per trial is now green after 6 months. Pretty nuts!

threads like these.. I thought they were gone. thanks to everyone, can we see more like this? I come here to learn, and today I have learnt. Actualy I have refined some earlier beliefs through the experience and wisdom of others, but just the same.

great thread :)

no matter if you use google pop-up blocker, SP2 or whatever, the new pop codes work also with them, go to my join page and test it :)

very good point about domains, there are some sites that have great content but shitty domains that a surfer would proably won't remember

DAMMIT :offtopic (kind of).

Anyway - I'm running Firefox, XP, all the updates - I went to test your popups and I got nothign. nada. Not even the usual "Firefox has blocked a popup on this page".

I assume yoru sites are nextdoorblowjob, nextdoorebony, etc? I went all the way to the secure form, not one popup. I know there are popups that get around my system, but yours aint it.

when you go to this join page
http://www.hotmomnextdoor.com/join.htm
let it load and then close, dont you get any pop-up?
I dont think its working with firefox(surfers dont use it anyway), but it works in IE, no matter what system do you use.

Nope, nothing at all for Firefox.

I opened it in IE and nothing either, untill I closed it - then it opened a new tab in Firefox.

The "surfers don't use firefox" theory is disintegrating daily, btw.

its an exit pop-up, when the surfers clicks the join link, nothing happens, only if he dont and go away, he get the pop offer

according my stats around 1% of my surfers use FireFox and I bet, many of them are webmasters who check the sites

Nice way to look at it, and I found out that I'm making $34.98 per sale with them. And that should go up over time, that's why when Steve offered me PPS I kindly said no thanks :xmas-smil

Overall, I would say this was a very informative thread and gave some of us a perspective from both sides. Thanks Marc for your participation. I learned addiitonal information that I might not have been exposed to without your participation.

I wish we could have more threads like this. There was no bashing and I can actually say it was positive and productive.

Thanks to all who participated. : ))

Yep this thread sort of proves that they can pay $35 PPS just some of them are choosing not too. And those that drop the $ amount $5 for no pop ups are getting me even more.

Silvercash has a great site, Tranny Trouble. But I push the traffic I set aside for that site to someone who pays me more. Conversion is off by 50% but I more then make up for that with the higher payout.

It is all numbers and where we make the most and where they make the most.