Good post, but...

I disagree here...

"New Total: $402237 profit of = $52237"

$52237 is still all part of the gross. Programs have a massive overhead - most have large staffs, offices, advertising, and I don't even want to get into the hosting bills.

The profits that programs once raked in on exit traffic and spam are not what they used to be. Retentention is not what it used to be. Surfers that have joined a few sites are much more savy.

PPS will be around for a while, but the payouts are likely to drop.

You almost must remember that affiliates can be very demanding - they want free hosting, they want this, and they want that. We've had MPEG people we've set up with hosting actually cost us money because of bandwidth.

It's not as cut-and-dry as your numbers make it look.

So true, that's why ARS did so well. They executed on that model. I used to have 1:200 ratios on their Booty College and Black Foxes sites. Like clockwork.

i love this thread. Intresting that doc is saying a revshare will earn you more money now since that is what he runs

Totally depends on the content quality and interactivity/community level.

and on the updates frequncy. ;)

Yes i would but I also was smart enough to check one of their tours and they have a higher trial (44.95).

It is pretty interesting that your biggest money is from the same programs you claimed were shaving you a few pages back.

Revshare guys want it both ways. No way can PPS models work but we will make you more with revshare.

Watch PPS go away and Jay's new sig would read how I made $200k.

PPS is not some complicated algorithm. Some programs are unable to do it because it will require capital (if being done honestly), while others choose not to do it.

For instance, here's how rudimentary it is. I checked out a TopBucks site
http://www.herfirstasstomouth.com/s1/index.html

Topbucks pay $35 per signup.

The trial is $9.95 for 7 days, full membership after that period is $39.95. So assuming it goes to full membership, that leaves them with $9.95 + $39.95 - $35 = $14.90

But even if it doesn't go to full membership, note that there is a pre-checked cross sell which reads "Click here to signup for a 1 day trial Membership to Tight Buttholes - One Day Trial Membership for $2.97. After 1 day, Membership renews automatically at $29.97 every 1 month."

So even if the $9.95 trial doesn't go to full $39.95 membership, there is the cross sell safety in place that charges $29.95 after one day. Therefore even if the user doesn't become a full member, but doesn't "Unclick" rather then "Click" to join Tight Buttholes, TopBucks earns $9.95 + $29.95 = $39.99 within one day. And therefore earn $39.99 - $35 = $4.99 in one day. If the user goes to full membership and the One day trial membership goes thru TB earns $39.95 + $4.99 = $44.98 off the member in profit (this is how much earned after paying the affiliate the $35).

A revshare program operating in the same manner can pay $35 or even $70, but not many revshare programs it seems, charge $39.99 for their membership and have a one day prechecked trial of $2.95 trial that leads to a $29.95 membership (Imagine if a site like Karups did this rather than simply charging the $29.95 per month that they do). I'm not quite sure why this is the case. I think it goes back to the difference in the philosophy of their marketing. But even without doing so, we're still in debate as to which one will earn an affiliate more money. I think if Karups included all the features in the join page that a PPS program does, the answer would clearly be revshare.

Revshare programs tend to be quite simple when it comes to price. The price is X for one month recurring. The PPS model hits you with essentially four different subscriptions at once when you're at the join page ($9.95 7 day subscription, $39.99 30 day subscription, $2.95 1 day subscription, $29.95 30 day subscription). Is it wrong to do this? No.

Basically PPS models rely on the fact that many consumers are not keen shoppers. Yes, a certain percentage of them will refund/chargeback, but most will not and the ones that do are made up via other methods such as mailings etc (note the prechecked agreement to receive newsletters on the TB page).

It's reminds of of real world retail, where you buy something for $39.99 that has a $30 rebate. All you have to do is mail in the rebate form to get your $30 so that the product only actually costs you $9.99. I always mail in my rebates, but do any of you know how many people in the general public actually mail in rebates? The number of people is between 1-10 percent and it's usually 1 percent rather than 10 percent. Surprising isn't it? Those are industry figures. Companies understand these figures. They know that rebates work in their favor or they wouldn't offer them. I say good for the company. If the customer doesn't choose to take money back by simply mailing in a form then that's that.

In online adult, companies understand that a certain % of people will upgrade from a trial by choice or default and only a % of those will refund/chargeback. They understand their customers. The difference is that in online adult, these users may be less likely to join other sites in the future even if they don't refund/chargeback the subscription because they realize they may have overpaid. It's perhaps one (and only one) of potentially many reasons why those 'margins' everybody in this thread is talking about have dwindled and continue to get smaller and may very well become unprofitable at some point.

Good observation. I remember when some other sponsor dropped their trials and suddenly they claimed "We get the same conversions without trials, trials are the demise of this industry and are bound to die". Then a little while later trials are back on the exact same sponsor and of course they "convert better than sliced bread".

Everybody will always claim their program and business model is superior. It's up to the affiliates to make up their own mind and see through the smoke screens.

I totally agree. And better yet, offer both types of models so that you win either way.

David you guys offer a limited trial on your sites?

Yes I run a revshare program, which I never pushed on this thread. A no, webmasters don't earn $35-$40 per sale on average with us. We only just started charging $29.95 and just hit a year old.

Many revshare programs have webmasters that average $30-$40 per sale (and higher). Lightspeed cash is a good example. They also charge $35 after the trial.


If you have good quality niche targed traffic, push revshare, the retention will earn you more than a PPS.

Yeah right that is why a ton of revshare guys are here saying they can't pay $35 a sign up. If they were paying over that then this thread would be very quiet.

good point

Finally :thumbsup someone who gets it

I think the revshare guys are saying that they can pay $35 or more but not on the initial signup. It will come over 2-3 months. They simply don't have enough funds to do it out of pocket and then have to wait 2-3 months to get their share.

Unless they would attempt to get those revenues through both/either mailing and cross-sales.

Matt

correct, thanks

Actually, they are talking about non-trial joins. No way a trial join is worth $80-120 over any period of time. If it was worth that much, big programs would pay $60/trial, and no one would ever wonder how can PPS make money.

Full joins at $30/month are worth that much, but we all know trials sell better and this is why PPS use trials. If many people make $35/signup with revshare, it needs to be a very good site that retains if it's trial joins. If it's full joins, than keep in mind that some sponsors pay up to $50-55 for "active" (full) joins.

also, the 60/40 ratio of trials/full joins mentionned a few posts up by TheDoc seems way too high. At $40/month, I imagine you won't get more than 15-20% full months. We use $29/month for our full joins, so I can't be sure of the figure for the $40/month, but still seems way high.

Kevin2 - [email protected]

Also - I saw someone saying 40% initial sign ups on full month - don't know who is getting that but you're lucky if you get 5% :)

Good point - unfortnately with no new activity, keeping c/b's under 1% is impossible and keeping your account alive is a struggle. Its not quite cut and dry like that :)

Tushycash does about 40% full joins versus trial. I am not sure of how the trial is offered though.

you did not read the thread. They are saying it is a losing proposition. This was repeated over and over by revshare folks.

All forget 1 important thing: sales. Some PPS programs have ugly sites, which can convert 1:2000 or worse, but you will see 1:300-500 in their stats. They can start with 2nd page and if the ratios are still shit, they will start counting billing join page clicks, which normally converts 1:3-30(depends on the join page). And there is also difference with the tours, some great sites have 50% CTR to the join(2nd) page and even if they count 2nd page its still high, but other tours can have 10% CTR to 2nd page, so of course the ratios will look a lot better.

Only thing you need is to use your own script to count clicks and then check $$$ per click on the same traffic or similar gallery template(steady CTR)

sign up for 2k memberships under your own credit cards for a $1 a piece

its exit trial with lower price, which pop up if you dont join to their site.

Its strange when program like triplexcash.com charging $30/month (without using trials) lower their payments on PPS to 25usd.
What a lot of PPS owners said about them (indirectly) in this thread?
loosers..

I know a sponsor who pays $25 PPS on a 34.95 tour, without a exit trial :)

I sent in my whole adult webmaster career about 1.5k joins (a main part of them is not using trials) to revshare programs and noone, except one, made more than 35$ PPS. Almost all of them were good quality niche programs.
Even 30$ and above per member wasnt/isnt often, rather something between 22-27$ per member.
So i understand that some revshare programs says here they arent able to pay 30-35$ PPS

and did you have the same amount of joins later with niche PPS programs? :)

no, there arent good quality niche PPS programs, thats contradictions:)
PPS niche programs convert for me much worse then revshare niche programs, thats why i use them.
But if i had to choose between reality sites from PPS program and reality sites from partnership program i would definitately choose PPS.

Im waiting for the first PPS program owner who tells how good his niche sites are. :)

Also reality sites can be niche sites. :)

Thanks Marc De I am mailing you now.

This mirrors my experience. And with ccbill they also take the 13% or whatever it is reducing it further.

Look at the major link lists that list how each program did and you will not see any revshare in the top 5 normally.

is it not missing -12% processing from the xsales and exits also?

true you have to have your own traffic.

I'm sorry Mike PPS is a lot more complicated than that, and cross sells don't all convert and most of them are unclicked as surfers are smart as hell these days.

PPS is possible, we are doing it now with NATS and paying $25-30 on $1.95 3 day trials. PPS makes affilates more money period. Revshare is for those who can't do Proper PPS as it takes a team of people to run the program properly and maximize every part of it with mailers upsells, exits etc

no, only a few % for merchants...

because they list sponsors by ratios and some of them count millionth page uniques

bump for a great thread