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Opinions are one thing . To be perfectly honest i'm not a tax guy and i only have an opinion , i send everything to my tax guy and he sorts it out. I pay a ton of taxes as i have a large trust fund, i dont know anything but what the bill is ( now compared to when i had nothing )

I'm not a tax guy either but when you watch people on this board guess about how little the rich pay in taxes, you can pretty much figure where they fall in the brackets.
as someone who's done manual labor at about 20k a year to someone who owns multimillion dollar businesses and worked up thru all the steps in between, I think I can speak articulately on who pays the most in taxes, how much the rich pay (not the ultra rich of course) and who gets screwed.

not sure what your problem is with that but then, I've wondered that about you more than once.

You may need to learn to comprehend what you read before you declare yourself to be intellectually superior :1orglaugh :1orglaugh :1orglaugh

The truth is somewhere in the middle. Some wealthy people pay lots of taxes and some pay very little. Some poor people pay too much taxes, some don't pay enough.

A rich/poor debate seems to underlie the anaolgy and their seems to be many assumptions on both sides. Here's what I think. Many poor people make excuses for their plight but their are also many that try hard but can't get anywhere. Statistically, most people live and die in the same economic strata they are born in. For instance, if you were born poor you will most likely die poor. If you were born wealthy you will most likely die wealthy. This says something about the invidual but also their environment and opportunities. We don't choose whether we're born from a rich or poor family, it's just the luck of the draw. It is also easier to make money when you have money than it is to make money when you don't have any. When you're wealthy you have the contacts, the infrastructure, support, and investors to assist you.

Still, the western world affords the best opportunities for anybody from any economic background to move up in the world, and realistically it can't be easy or everybody and his dog would be rich. A society where everybody is rich couldn't work either. Even a pure meritocrasy (which our society is far from) would be an 'unequal' society because different people have different strengths and would be rewarded accordingly.

I don't see anything wrong with people getting paid more based on merit and the difficulty or importance of their job. I do take issue with some wealthy people who don't realize that they are the least bit responsible for their wealth and take an arrogant attitude and look down on less fortunate. I would give somebody like Bill Gates credit because even though it doesn't take a genius to do what he did, he took an opportunity and made something of it. I wouldn't lay the same praise on children from wealthy families in the same way because being born rich is pure luck and has nothing to do with skill, effort, or merit. I mean, would it surprise you that Donald Trump's son is wealthy and most likely involved in Real Estate? My understanding is that even Donald started out in life with $10million from his dad.

Back to taxes. Everybody should pay proportionate to their earnings.

Im 41 have my own house and office. You adapted the net early, that doesnt make you brillant it makes you lucky because your not much of businessman if you dont know that fica is only paid to a certain level.

The problem is the pro-rich people only see INCOME taxes, when they are only a PART of a persons total tax burden. for example everyone who work pay FICA taxes, but did you now the average minmum wage worker pays $1 in FICA taxes fore very $13 he earn while a basball player lie A-Rod who makes $25 mil a year pays $1 in FICA taxes for every $68 he earns. Is that fair?

Yes America is full of oportunity and the rich have taken advantage of that, but it's not punishment for them to contribute to the maintanance of teh very society that allowed the to become rich in the first palce. That's like saying because a millionaire has to have a serurity ssytem in his home costing $1000's while a poor person doesn't that that is somehow "unfair"

To be honest if I made $1 million after taxes I'd have at least $950K I have no use for. I don't need a lot of crap. Owning lots of crap is a bitch. I could have a huge house with that income. Once again more aggravation. Have to hire someone to clean it, take care of the outside, etc. Then there's the security issues. I couldn't leave because I'd be to worried about the fucking house. What kind of life is that? I don't get these rich people that have house bigger than the local Wal-Mart. WTF do you need that much room for? Man I'd be up all night wandering around wondering if somebody has broken in.

Same thing with cars. Why own a car worth $40K or more. Every time I parked it I'd worry about someone fucking with it. And people would. You know there's some guy working at Burger King for $6 that sees that car and is so pissed at his circumstance he takes it out on you. More specifically your car. I dont neeed to pay 2X or 3X what I need for a car to get me from point A to point B just to give me some self-esteem. Anyways that's just me.

don't waste your time...

the working poor who receive public assistance, at least here in California, receive a "bonus" at the end of each year equal to the tax they'd pay had they earned the welfare. if you think they are somehow losing out on anything you're crazy. in addition, your so called "fees" on utilities are waved for people with household incomes under $25,000 and sometimes even pay less per unit used be it gas or electricity. the poor pay little to nothing in taxes. they aren't paying taxes on a new benz or property taxes on a house. of course landlords pass shit along to tenants but thats easy to get around with section 8 housing, another tool for the working poor.

i dont see why being successful means you should be forced to carry the weight of those less fortunate. A-Rod shouldnt even be putting in $1 for every $68 earned because that's money he'll never see again where the minimum wage worker will be dependent on it and probably will be taking a chunck of a-rods money in the end. should i invest a portion of my earnings for your retirement because "society allowed" me to become successful?

I have always thought the dinner example was a little silly as it is based on a lot of false assumptions. Someone brought up sales tax, payroll taxes and other consumption taxes. The people who like this story said, but we all pay them so it is fair. In a nutshell all of those taxes are regressive so no it isn?t quite fair. The lower your income the more you pay. For example:

Payroll taxes stop at $87,000 so if you?re self employed your payroll taxes are 15.3% of your income if you make less than $87k. Say you do all right and make 5 times that (435k) your payroll taxation rate is only 3% of your total income. The consumption taxes work the same way. If you make 20k a year that Federal Gasoline tax is going to be a much higher percentage of your yearly income than it would be if you make 435k a year assuming both people drive back forth to work and for basic needs. So the example of who pays the most isn?t really valid as it only examines federal personal income taxes. If you think the dinner example is what is wrong with taxes in America, then in order to avoid being a hypocrite you would have to advocate removing the cap on payroll taxation and subjecting passive income to the payroll taxes as well. The bottom line is the middle class generally pays the bulk of the taxes in this country.

A crude generalization: the working rich avoid the payroll tax, and the working poor avoid the income tax but the middle class has to pay both.

Anyway the big distinction in who pays what taxes is not determined by income, but rather if the income generating activity is passive or active. Since most of the taxes in the US are active taxes this tends to favor the wealthy, but not always.

Say you have two individuals. Individual #1 was born with a trust fund that has paid him and will continue to pay him 87k a year for the rest of his life. This individual has never hit a lick his entire adult life (he started receiving his yearly stipend upon his 18th birthday) as he was and is always content to enjoy whatever comforts his 87k got him.

Individual #2 was born into a working class family, he worked his way through trade school, worked 2-3 jobs at a time, served a low paying apprenticeship (6 years) after he got out of trade school and then worked for someone else for several years to learn the ins and outs of his business before striking out on his own at the age of 35. Now 5 years later he has finally built his business into a success and makes 87k a year in profits.

It is interesting how the federal government taxes these two individuals. The total Federal taxation for each of them (excluding fees and gasoline taxes) is as follows.

Individual #1

28% (Federal Income Taxes) * 87k = $23,490 leaving him with $63,510 a year after taxes.

Individual #2

28% (Federal Income Taxes) * 87k = $23,490 + 15.3% * 87k =$ 13,311 total taxation Federal taxation for individual #2 =$36,801 leaving him with $50,199 after taxes.



But wait there is more! The trustee of individual #1?s trust fund did due diligence and realized Individual #1 could come out much better investing for capital gains instead of dividends or interest income which saved individual #1 an additional 8% leaving individual #1 with a total federal tax of =$17,400 for doing absolutely no work while the poor sap that works for a living pays $36,801 (almost twice as much)

A big point that examples like the one above miss, and the right wing has done an incredible job making the taxation debate simply about rich vs. poor when it should also include those who actively work for a living vs. those who don?t.

What a great post , very well said.

interesting!

ahahahaha, yes. you're right.

here's a clue genius. I started early with thousands of others. they're all gone. Keep imagining its luck that I'm here. It's what makes you the idiot troll you are.

OK if Hitler had won WWII would these rich people be rich? Um no. So who benefits the most by the USA being what it is? The rich. Not to metnion WHO won that war? The rich? No facotry workers like my grandfather who risked his life storming the beaches of Normandy killing Nazis so people like Bill Gates can be rich. WHY shouldn't they have to pay for that?

Once again you are saying that it's somehow "unfair" that Bill Gates has to have to pay ten of 1000's of $$$ if not hundred's of 1000's a year for security at his home and some poor person pays nothing. When you can explain to me how that is unfair maybe you'll have a point.

Bullshit. I've made under $25K a year many a time and NEVER got these benfits. And if these benefits is so great if you asked 100 poor people and 100 rich people if they rather be rich and pay high taxes or poor and pay no taxes, but get "benefits" 100% would say they'd rather be rich? Hmmmmmmmmmm.

Also try to get scetion 8 housing. First of all if you get an appointment in less than 18 months after applying consider yourself lucky. Secondly, if you make more than $6 an hour you liekly not even get it because you earn "too much". Thirdly go LOOK at the type of housing you get. Please quit sucking the cocks of the rich.

I'mnot anti-rich, but ther are as many poster here as ignorant as to "benefits" to the poor as ther are people that think the rich get away without paying enough taxes.

It's not completely luck, it's a mix of luck and skill why you're here and made it while many of the other thousands didn't. Many of the successful people on this board including lightspeed, mike from silvercash, Lars for streamray, persiankitty, bradshaw, KRL (how he got in to the phone sex biz) have alluded to an element of luck being instrumental in their success. Many of them 'fell' into their line of business or were guided by people, but it also took a whole lot of effort and proper decision making on their part to make the most of their opportunity. I don't know your story, but I would venture to say it's likely not that different. Many successful people throughout history have echoed this sentiment. So, it seems to be a combination at work.

its unfair to the point that the rich are forced to pay for someone elses either misfortune, lazyness, or mistake. its unfair that i have to pay taxes to support women who have children in highschool and were forced to drop out so the best job they can get is mcdonalds. its unfair that i have to pay for people who'd rather get a handout then do a hard days work. i think everyone should be required to pay their fair share but forcing the successful to carry the load for those less fortunate is bullshit.

http://www.ncat.org/liheap/profiles/California.htm
you seem to be the ignorant one about the "benefits" for the poor

you're a fucking genious. you're telling me that if i ask a poor person would they rather be rich and pay more taxes they'd actually say yes? that amazes me. i DO believe you are "anti-rich". you said before if you made $1,000,000 that'd be $950,000 too much. next month if you have some extra income play santa claus and pass it around to the homeless instead of buying those dvds or w/e you waste money on.

btw, its not my problem you didnt take advantage of these programs when you were making chicken scratch.

:1orglaugh , shit don't even know where to start after reading such brilliant post.

This man is a genius....

Exactly. Excellent post btw.

you talk big on this board lol

Here's you either in your $250 a month apartment with posters on the wall. You aint paying for anyones shit.

http://www.starterupsteve.com/images/steve4.gif

thats not me. thats not an apartment.

thanks for playing

Its you, but just for fun if it wasnt how do you know its not an apartment? Nevermind, I already know, its your friend :1orglaugh

I talk big with other program owners, investment bankers, etc. too.

It's only amongst you, the rabble, were I'm not respected. how much do you think that hurts? :1orglaugh