I cannot remember who said it...and it does sound a bit like Twain...but I am thinking it could have been Will Rogers.

There are no simple answers, but people only want simple answers. We are entering a very dangerous time, because it is far easier to sell extreme ideas, particularly those of the right-wing, via slogans and sound-bites, while concepts from the center and left usually need explanation. The more our politicial environment is dumbed-down, the harder it becomes for moderates to be heard and the greater the temptation simply to win votes by pressing peoples' buttons.

That makes more sense.

"'the Bush administration and former Attorney General John Ashcroft "essentially refused to describe how it was implementing the law; it left numerous substantial questions unanswered, and classified others without justification""

And there it is folks. A secret government creating secret, and even more disturbing (if at all possible) open ended laws which gives them the power to make the rules on the fly without any votes, discussion or debate.

So arguments from the left are nuanced and those from the right are simple? I don't find that to be the case at all.

Just this week you have the Chairman of the Democratic Party calling the Republicans the "white Christian party". What is that but a soundbyte intended to increase the minority vote for the Democratic party? Of course, the Republicans do the exact same stuff on different issues.

Consider the politics of economics. You can read the arguments of Joseph Stiglitz or Robert Rubin on the left. Martin Feldstein and Milton Friedman on the right. There are a few best-sellers in there.

People find arguments they agree with to be intelligent and complex and those they disagree with to be unfounded and simple.

Well...Ashcroft is no longer the Attorney General...and I watched the Senate Hearings via C-Span when the Patriot Act and its "sunset" provisions were been discussed and I personally thought that Attorney General Gonzales was very forth coming with the Senators. He did not appear to hedge on any of the questions asked by the Senators.

BTW...I have watched as former Attorney General Ashcroft testified before Senate hearings and he frequently appeared to hedge on his responses. I clearly see two different styles between the former Attorney General Ashcroft and Attorney General Gonzales.

That might not be good for us pornographers.

Well...I have not heard Attorney General Gonzales discuss pornography...but it does appear that the Justice Department is gearing up to take on pornographers. It is my understanding that there has been 25 or so Attorneys in the Justice Department assigned to doing that very thing. I think that even if there is an injunction granted at some point in time that involves the new 2257 regs...it will be limited to certain provisions of the new 2257 and said injunction will not stop the Justice Department from coming after pornographers on the old 2257 regs...and taxes etc.

I think they are going to make a showing that they are attempting to limit the spread of porn in the US...so there are going to be some heads that roll...just my :2 cents:

Although I would hardly call Howard Dean left wing, his remarks certainly qualify as a Goebbels-like tactic. But as nothing more than a point-scoring tactic, those remarks are irrelevant to my statement about "extreme ideas, particularly those of the right wing". My point might have been clearer if I had used the word "policies" in place of "ideas", but in any case the crux was the word "extreme" and I did not claim that extremes were the sole province of the right.

Extreme ideas are much more appealing to a dumbed-down electorate, because they are already in tune with many peoples' prejudices and with the less savory aspects of the human character. In terms of electoral viability there is no left wing in the US, therefore the extreme right is the only extreme about which we need be concerned.

sig spot secured

Grats on post 1000

The extreme left-wing are socialists and communists. The extreme right-wing are fascists and totalitarians. They have both had their disproportionate influence if you ask me; both in the US and abroad. I would just bet you view the points-of-view of the extreme left as "normal". Like "Universal health care", for example.

Since South Africa is the only other developed nation which does not have national/universal health care, I am apparently not alone in not considering that to be a left-wing issue. Otherwise your assumptions about my political outlook are as wrong as they are irrelevant.

In the UK I voted Conservative until in common with many others, I felt Margaret Thatcher moved too far away from that party's core values, damaging the country and party in the process. In the US I am more ambivalent, because although I incline towards a lot of traditional Republican ideas, the Republican record in office has hardly been inspiring. At any rate I have zero faith in anything I would regard as left of center, if only because most such ideas are at odds with human nature to the point of being impractical. Truth be told, I'm not even a great supporter of democracy itself...

quite a sobering perspective, and absolutely spot on. the american public will eat up this 'terror cell' nonsense found in Lodi, California and beg washington to make the patriot act permanent. washington says 'thy will be done'.

did you ever see Citizen Cohn with James Woods?

Right. We are talking about AMERICAN POLITICS. That's what the whole thread references. The government taking over and providing healthcare is predominantly a left-wing issue in the US. One nation's left is another's center, of course.

I think I'll throw my sig into the mix..............





see sig :thumbsup

Although I think the patriot act is stupid, i can sit here and say all i want that bush is a nazi fuck and i think him and his admistration is the worst piece's of shit that has ever happend to this country all i want and i wont get arrested for it. why? because im not threating anyone :321GFY

I believe only one democrat senator voted against the Patriot Act. More anger should be shown towards them because they stand for nothing other than what is popular at the time.

that could quickly get you on a 'watch list', and this Act gives them them authority to find out everything about you and FAR easier to bug phones and Internet communication without a warrant.

i suggest you go back and study about the McCarthy hearings that they tried to teach us about in high school. people were using this stuff to settle personal grudges. don't like someone? call them a Communist. except today you call them a 'terrorist'.

look at what america was doing all across the globe in under the guise of fighting communism back then. it's happening again, except this time under the guise of the 'war on terra'.

same shit, different decade.

:thumbsup

Dont forget how it ended. McCarthy discredited and his name became a dirty ism.

What guise? We were fighting commys.

I'm not reading all that...

not before plenty of people had their lives completely destroyed / dead / imprisoned. this round is even more frightening.

yes, and we're in Iraq because of 'terra'.

So why do you think the US was in Vietnam or Korea but for the implementation of Kennan's strategy - as understood by Truman - of "containment"?

yes, it was all about 'commies'. meanwhile, 2257 is just to 'protect the children'. the patriot act is to fight 'terror'. saddam hussein is in prison because of... whatever they say this week.

who cares anymore. this administration has proven that it can do anything it wants - anything. and until they gun for YOU, you won't say a fucking thing.

You are all " terrarists " ....

If the patriot act would have been in place before 9/11 , it wouldn't have happened. The agencies need to gather information, at any cost. With information, the nation will be safe ... :1orglaugh

Nice....

OK. What is your alternative theory to "communism" as to why the US was involved in Korea and Vietnam.

enough with the strawman arguments, and just look at what's happening today. please? while you defend our actions in Vietnam they are expanding their 'surveilance'

http://www.november.org/stayinfo/bre.../Wiretaps.html

That's not a "straw man" argument at all. That was actually a position that you took. That we could infer something about the present by the past - by what America was "doing all across the globe in under the guise of fighting communism back then". So what is your theory as to the real reason we were in Vietnam and Korea?

For the record, I didn't defend US actions in Vietnam.

i didn't say anything about vietnam or korea, and i'm not interested in thread drift. and this is why we're in the situation we're in today. people start a debate about a real threat, and inevitably the debate drifts off to topics that will do nothing to help people become more aware of the 800 pound gorilla sitting in the room with us right now. don't go down that road, because the ease with which Feds can get taps without warrants should send bolts of electricity down the spines of everyone on this board.

Is that fresh vagina I smell?

:1orglaugh :1orglaugh :1orglaugh

Bottom line is to look at the history of civilised countries. Human beings do not tolerate discomfort for longer than it takes to affect them in their living rooms.
I'm sure that the communist witch hunts would have continued unabated; but, when Hollywood was affected, the people reacted. Directors and actors and ancillary players couldn't make movies. The people finally bitched.

You cannot keep a country perpetually on terror alert. Their psyche simply cannot take it for extended periods of time.

Let's face it.

We wanted to drink tea. Freely and in our own time without the tyranny of another government dictating the rules.

Now, we drink tea.

We'll suffer for a few more years, I believe, and then the spoiled Americans will throw it off, just as we've always done when it affects us. At the moment, it doesn't. But, when the minister who preaches on Sunday can't join his favourite site on Monday, there will be a lessening.

Even the Soviet Union had to get a sense of humour after hundreds and hundreds of years. Now, they have crime and the black market runs the country and captialism is taking its fragile hold.

This is not based on fact, just whimsical opinion. No comments necessary.

the Patriot Act should be passed

So what you're saying is that you don't have an answer to the communism thing. Well, you are the one who brought it up as a historical reference. No one else did. I'd say making historical comparisons in a thread about politics is completely relevant. But either it is a good reference or a poor one and we both know the answer to that.

"Real threat", "real threat", "real threat". Sounds familiar. Just like, what do you call those guys? Republicans! The time to be afraid of wire taps was 1968.

"Drifting off topic"? You must be new here. WELCOME TO THE INTERNET!

Dude, this is why I like you.

you're right, but before we get to the pendulum swining the other way, plenty of people will be prosecuted.