A majority would probably throw you in jail for running a porn site. So go turn yourself in. :1orglaugh

You support the right to fictional child murder and yet you are attacking those who support the right to other fictional free speech?

How can you support fictional child murder if you say this has to do with "having kids"?

Wouldn't you be more worried about fictional killing of kids than fictional abuse?

300 anti-free speech porn producers! :1orglaugh

Start with John Stuart Mill's 'On Liberty'. Educate yourself as to the implications of the actions you're so fervently advocating. Then come back and give us a more knowledgeable opinion on this topic.

"In this essay Mill also warns of a second danger to liberty, which democracies are prone to, namely, the tyranny of the majority. In a representative democracy, if you can control the majority (and get them to vote for, and elect, your candidates) then you can control everyone (because your candidates, once "democratically elected", will pass whatever laws are needed for this, as was done by Hitler's agents in the 1930s in Nazi Germany and seems to be happening today in the U.S.A.)."

http://www.serendipity.li/jsmill/jsmill.htm

Someone post a poll for both arrests. I'm curious to see how everyone here would vote.

It doesn't matter how everyone would vote. Everyone in this country gets to do their own thing as long as they're not hurting anyone else, no matter how unpopular it is with the moral majority. That's the whole point. Are you really this thick?

If I saw any show abusing a baby in a sexual way, yes; they have no sexual feelings which is child abuse.

I know where to draw the line, do you? I dare you or anyone to post a gallery of babies being finger fucked or write a fantasy to your partner accounts. :)

you're too fucking stupid to deserve any other reply than this one :1orglaugh :1orglaugh :1orglaugh :1orglaugh

I don't know where you live dig, but in most states in the US, if in your own house you possess CP, heroin, bomb making substances, loaded weapons left where a child could access them, etc. you are subject to arrest and jail time.

So the argument that everyone gets to do there own thing isn't valid, so if anyone is thick bro, it ain't me.

Funny how you're comparing a loaded weapon, Heroin and a bomb to a text file.

Something in this set doesn't belong. Can you tell which one?

I agree. Probably a kid that cant see the difference between " actual pictuires" and " stories"...
I am happy I don't have to stay in this business much longuer.

Tell it to the judge . . .

I think below indicates how you can't do anything you want in the privacy of your home.


In September, when news reports of the site began to surface, Wilson insisted that because the site actually is hosted in Amsterdam, he was not violating any laws in Polk County.

"Nice try," Brad Copley, a prosecutor with the State Attorney's Office, who specializes in obscenity and sex crime cases, said Friday night. "He's in charge of the Web site. He lives here. He's operating from his house. It doesn't matter where his server is."

So a story is CP? The pixels are sentient beings who were molested and abused?

How can it be child abuse when there's no child involved? Anyway, the point isn't about protecting stories of sex with children. It's about protecting the right of the individual in this society to say what he wants whenever he wants as long as he isn't actually harming someone. It's why the ACLU protects Nazi marchers just as strongly as they protect the most extreme liberal groups. When you say we have freedom of speech, you don't get to pick and choose which speech is ok. Either it's all ok or you have to let the government pick and choose who can say what, where they'll say it and when it can be said. That is totalitarianism. You're not as intelligent as I thought you were, that's for sure, but surely you're intelligent enough to do a little reading on the subject instead of just saying "Pedos are bad" over and over again.

Bomb making substances.

http://imagescommerce.bcentral.com/m...e-magnet-a.jpg

bottle

http://atlantzone.free.fr/jeu/objets...s/zoom-rag.jpg

rag

http://www.toolweb.com/pics/BTZ50833.jpg

gas

amazon sells books on how to make bombs that is put out by the United States Military.

looks like we are all subject to arrest at any time.

Tell it to the judge huh? Now *I* should be arrested too eh? You think people should be arrested for sitting in their own house, by themselves, reading about stuff of which you don't approve.

You're just not worth this many keystrokes. Good night.

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-------------Bottom Line = Support free speech even when you disagree with it

Some great arguments on both sides in this thread, but you know.. it's almost a waste of time because the conditioned emotional response is blinding. My last post in this thread will be some notes about ACLU/Nambla/Amazon in response when confronted about selling NAMBLA on it's site, and similiar books.

***

The ACLU, defending NAMBLA, argues the lawsuit is the same as if someone was killed due to the permissive attitude of sex, drugs and rock music, and then sued Rolling Stone magazine for creating a climate in which the murder was possible.

Amazon has stated it does not endorse "Understanding Boys and Boylovers," but insists "people have the right to choose their own reading material."

Law-enforcement agencies say they cannot do much about "written words," emphasizing they deal mostly with trafficking in child pornography. The FBI and local agencies have been trying for years to find NAMBLA in violation of laws against the sexual exploitation of children, and a U.S. Senate committee concluded NAMBLA did not engage in criminal activity.

***

So a new day is dawning. How far will it go ? I guess we're finding out.

Pictures of CP and fantasty stories about CP produce the same effect and involve the same subject matter.

What you guys are arguing is like saying here's a some drugs visible on the table and there are some drugs hidden inside a box.

If text files about CP aren't CP then what are they?

I'm not trying to be an argumentative asswipe, just trying to legally analyze this case cause apparently we've got a wide rift in opinions on this one and no one is even close to seeing the others viewpoint.

Apparently this concept is just waaaaay too esoteric for KRL to comprehend. He wants you to 'tell it to the judge'.

Digital images are formed by 1 and 0's.

Text files are formed by 1 and 0's.

Both file types are viewed by using your eyes.

Images are displayed on a screen using pixels.

Text is displayed on a screen using pixels.


WTF? Am I stupid and missing something here??

i think everyone should watch this funny joke before going to sleep tonight

http://www.ifilm.com/player/?ifilmId...ize=default%22

whats funny is, people sit and argue on a board while this is on mainstream.

jokes about sex with children will be on sale at amazon dvd when this movie comes out.

enjoy.

They're text files. Is a story about rape an actual rape? Is a movie where someone gets killed an actual murder?

This isn't a large mental gap to bridge, and if you haven't bridged it by now you're never going to.

By the way I send money to the ACLU every year. Just so you guys recognize I am a huge proponet of freedom of speech and not an ultra conservative.

:1orglaugh

Yes.

54321

You're a 'huge proponent of freedom of speech'???

coulda fooled me.

yeah but you also claim to donate so much to protect animals but invest in uranium. ;)

i find the uranium investment encouragement the funny thing due to its clear effects on animals and how much its routinely used tested on animals.

sorry. had to.

I think gore pictures of people being killed, tortured and dismembered are totally offensive, unwarranted in any situation and I further believe that anyone who enjoys viewing them is a sick motherfucker. Fletch :)

However, I would never support any politician who wants to outlaw them. You can find someone who's mortally offended by almost anything, and a politician who'll base his campaign on outlawing whatever particular thing it is that morally outrages you. Before too long, we won't have anything left to watch, read or do that isn't governmentally pre-approved as safe for all and non-corrupting, including anything that would undermine our faith in our government and our fearless all-wise, all-knowing leaders.

Yes to both.

To post here an image of chid porn, I must find a child and actually abuse it ....

To post a text file, I do not need to create a victim,,

Example:

- The baby was nakedon the bed... He approched with his finger extended, .....

See the difference? Probably not.

You are confusing morality with legality....

Do images stimulate sexual desire?

Does text stimulate sexual desire?

I'm arguing this point because I dealt with a point just like this once.

I had a phone sex biz before the Net. I had to deal with a right wing religious zealot state attorney general one year who wanted to prosecute the company by saying our phone sex messages were obscenity. I used the same argument like you are here, that these were just sound files and not images. And they were just regular silly porn, mostly simulated moaning groaning and sucking sounds. The prosecutor said it didn't matter, the sounds were stimulating people sexually and those sounds were obscene. We came back with "So moaning is considered obscene in the US?" "The simulated sucking sound created by girl placing her finger in her mouth is obscene?" It was totally ridiculous, yet we had no choice but to comply and shut down because we knew this guy was on a mission against the phone sex industry. The costs to let this guy prosecute and then spend years in court defending ourselves would have gone into the stratosphere.

This is a sample of what they said was obscene.

Sample Mp3 Phone Sex Message

Does that sound obscene to you? It doesn't to me. Its totally lame.

So they gave us the choice of shutting down the phone sex network or be prosecuted on obscenity charges and paying a fine of $75,000 per day for every day we kept our phone lines on past their order to comply.

this country is FUCKED UP

And they were wrong to prosecute you. Don't be the same type of tard they are.

Yes you're missing something... Someone will object to *your business*. Whether you agree or not, the framework is being built up so that the FBI can take you down.

Please post your sites here so we can look them over and see if they are in need of the FBI kicking in your door. BTW, I'll just surf with the images disabled... so no worries on that front.

The law is "fair and balanced", or should be. To have the FBI raiding someone over STORIES is crazy. What's next.. Steven King going to jail for years for the written word?

Who cares what your stance is, or how far you take it in your head.. you should be *against* the FBI going after some stories.

Sure, they should go after kid fuckers but not writers.

In a couple of months, I'll be sure to call the FBI about your sites and have you raided.. Don't let your tears hit this forum because of your previous stance.

That IS what it's about.

They didn't prosecute, just gave us a C & D order with the choice to shut down our phone lines or face an obscenity prosecution and $75k per day fines.

So, the AG was at least reasonable to first say do you want your lives ruined forever or would you like to just comply and turn 'em off and nothing further will happen.

interesting historical note before i get my beauty sleep:

the FBI at one time had an internal watchdog, who confessed to being decades of pedophile rape and was busted with a 6 year old

note:

all he got was 12 years

John H. Conditt Jr., 53, who retired in 2001, was sentenced last Friday to 12 years in prison in Tarrant County court in Fort Worth, Texas, after he admitted he molested the daughter of two FBI agents after he retired. He acknowledged molesting at least two other girls before his law enforcement career, his lawyer said.

This is comparing apples to oranges. There is no way in hell Steve King's stories could be considered obscene.

Come on guys, comparing regular violent movies and books to the case at hand is stretching it.

this made me laugh

i can go to sleep now.

this country acts like it has penalties for pedos. no it doesnt.

From your previous posts, I do think you would usually be a free speech supporter. That's why I think you are responding emotionally on this issue. If you ignore the specific content and really think about allowing the government to ban fictional writing, I think you might reconsider your position.

The supreme court already ruled on "virtual child porn" and they agreed that there is no child porn if there is there is no real child. That is a reasonable position on the issue.

Once you decide that fictional crimes equal real crimes, then most hollywood movies, novels, and video games must be banned.

I guess what made me less of a free speech advocate than I was in the past was becoming a parent. It does change your attitudes and makes you a bit more conservative, no doubt about it.

Probably why i've been trending everything I do more to the mainstream and less to adult each year.

I see your point and respect your point. And if this site was involving older teens it probably wouldn't seem so obscene, but when you start getting into stories about having sex with infants and toddlers, that to me is just really sick and depraved and indicative of the kinds of people that would have a high propensity to actually live out their fantasies with real kids.

im bored just gonna click some sigs and signup

We can always agree to disagree. That's part of the beauty of free speech. http://www.gofuckyourself.com/images.../xyxthumbs.gif

Sign up through my bangbros!!!! PLEASE! .............Hey I said please. :)

Being a single parent in the adult business and having gone through a 9 month court case being persecuted for having adult sites, and being a parent, then being found clean as a whistle beyond any reasonable doubt by everyone involved I can honestly tell you the content on this site is fucked up.

I've read EVERY post in this thread (yeah I was bored and couldn't sleep)

Whenever it comes to issues like this I ask myself, would I fight to the death in the defense of this?

So I ask those of you supporting the red rose site... would you fight to the physical death, if necessary, to defend (what you think is) "their right" to create, and distribute this specific content involving the rape of babies, and defend the people who read it?

And don't broaden my question to include all free speech and movies and everything else under the sun.

The question is simple.

Would you fight to the physical death, if necessary, to defend (what you feel is) "their right" to create, and distribute this specific content involving the rape of babies, and defend the people who read it?

:warning check this out guys :warning

That's a rather ridiculous question. There are few things I would fight to the death for. I would not fight to the death to prevent the whole of Africa getting nuked, nor would I fight to the death for your right not to be randomly arrested, tortured and subsequently burned for witchcraft.

The mere fact that I value my life over other people's rights has very little bearing on this discussion, I think.

That's about the most relevant argument in this case. Anyone whom thinks words are obscene and should be banned, should really think about what they are saying.

If these words are obscene then what is next?

Exactly my point.

Your arguments are based on theory, not reality. You wouldn't even fight for your own rights, let alone those of your children, family, or fellow countrymen.

And when it comes time for you to fight for the "freedom of speech" that you value so much, you wouldn't. You have no sense of community, yet spew what the community should accept.

The reality is that, when push comes to shove, you are not willing to defend what you believe in. Your convictions exist only in theory. :pimp

My convictions actually do exist in practice. One of my convictions is that to me, my life is the most important thing in the world. Thus, standing by that conviction, I am forced to value my life over the rights of others.

But apart from that, your argument makes no sense. Are you seriously trying to say that you can't have valid and true opinions on things you wouldn't die for?
If so, you are an idiot. An idiot of the dangerous type, namely the fundamentalist type, the type that refuses to see the relativity of things and is willing to kill and die for beliefs.
I believe in animal welfare, and thus try to treat animals well and don't eat them. Does the fact that I am not risking my life in animal protection mean that my opinions on animal welfare are invalid?

You don't seem to fully grasp the concepts of individualism, freedom and civil rights too well either. You seem to consider freedom something that communities can give. However, freedom is the natural state. Communities do not grant it, they can only lessen it. If they do so, they have to have very good reason to do so.
The idea that communities can just take away freedoms because the people defending them don't participate in the community in the way you would like borders on totalitarianism.

You know, the more I think about your argument, the less sense it makes. Only suicidal radicals' ethical positions and arguments are valid? What sort of an idiotic position is that anyway?

Once again the speech you have to protect is the kind that really pisses you off or upsets you not just the easy stuff.

Yes you MORON! one type is created by typing keystrokes on a screen and the other involves ACTUALLY having a naked child in front of you.

Jesus Christ You're dense as hell. You really don't give a shit about anything unless it involves a Cat.

You resort to name calling so soon, a sure indication you can't rationalize your stance.

You fail to realize that hundreds of thousands of Americans have died for their belief in freedom and democracy, yet you label me, and all those who have fought for freedom, and those who have died, fundamentalist? :1orglaugh

It's all a game to you, a mind fuck. For you and the very few others here who think this kind of material is theoretically ok to support, none of you have given your money to the red rose defence fund.

Did you even read the forum link someone here provided where she says specifically that she has found out the hard way that what she's done by writing and diseminating this content is illegal... yes... already illegal. She's not talking out of her ass either, it's what her counsil has advised her.

You are severely misguided.

Even in the wild dogs piss on trees to mark their teritory, other dogs know where they can, and can't go, without reprocutions. Even with no government, no society, wild animals have rules to follow to survive.

And freedom is not the natural state, anarchy is. If you feel, to live a true life, is to live in anarchy, the "free state of being", then goto the desert and roam free! But don't live in any kind of society because you will always feel like the man is keeping you down. :pimp

sig placement. sorry, i'm a little late