FUCK YOU !

TERRORIST FLEW MULTIPLE PLANES INTO OUR TWIN TOWERS..

PEOPLE DIED AND YOUR A RETARDED FUCKING IDIOT!


GO FUCK YOURSELF X 2

ASSHOLE

Ofcourse the US is not 100% right, its run by these tiny little ants called: "Humans".

World politics is a very complex thing, you have to try to keep everybody satisfied. Right now, 20 advisers are creating comments/speeches for George W Bush to make sure he doesn't say anything offensive. I am glad I am not in the president`s position.

Actually namecalling is an extremely effective tool, Dual.

It may not gain you respect in an Oxford debate, but when you are in the trenches and battling people with an obviously limited thought process, name calling and insults provides the perfect impetus for them to get angry and make even bigger fools of themselves.

The argument here was never that the U.S. was squeaky clean, its that we do what we have to do to further our own interests.

My problem with Bobo is that his argument is very hollow. It's along the lines that we should try and "understand" why they committed such a horrible act of terrorism against us. That somehow our greedmongering foreign policy is justification for why we should get hit.

This naive stance fails to take literally hundreds of different issues into account. Like, for instance. All of the suicide bombers were Arab. Not Afghany, not Palestinian, but Arabs. Our allies, remember?

Maybe before we look into the proverbial mirror, those criticizing us for backing the Jews should think about how much money and resources we give to countries in the Middle East, and how they gladly take it and funnel it into their own mass media to blame the US for all of their internal strife. These countries have big problems, most of them are not caused by the U.S. The powers in those countries know, however, that if you deflect the blame to the Infidels across the ocean, it makes it alot easier to stay in power.

Buying into the "America deserves what it gets because..." argument is simply buying into the same Propaganda perpetuated by those powers who would have the U.S. be their scapegoat.

See, no namecalling. Not nearly as effective.

Nz

Ya see, it's motherfuckers like Jamie who have no fucking clue what happens outside his/her bedroom window that only adds fuel to the idiocy.

I'm retarted for clearly articulating a very valid point??? Fuck you! Don't just spew out your hate bullshit. I'm a more effective US citizen then you'll ever be. Why? Because I'm informed on WORLD issues. I don't just hear of something bad happening and begin placing blame and throwing bombs and telling everybody who doesn't agree with me a retard.

Bobo,

The most importent thing to keep in mind, is that whatever information you may have, was supplied to you by news agencies that have their own agendas.

For instance, CNN has started a few weeks ago cnnarab.com which is a new business initiative to captivate Arab audiences. This, overnight, changed completely the way they cover the war in the middle east. All of them sudden the Israeli attacks are not a response for Palestinian suicide bombers killing hundreds of innocent women and children. All of the sudden it is a sign of Israeli aggression.

The problem is, there is always an interest behind the information that you are being presented with. This is non-governmental. there are no politicians here! It's the corporate media agencies around the globe.

Al Queida sad that they killed all these thousands of Americans because of American presence in Saudi Arabia. American presence in Saudi Arabia is not because of greed or poor statemainship. It's because otherwise the entire oil reserves of the free world will be held by one Saddam Hussein.

I am also not an American and I also don't think that America is a nation of Saints. But I do think that without America and American Politics - this world would be all bad.

As for Jewish influence in America, my friend, there are as many muslims in America as there are Jews. If you understood what America stands for, you would understand that if the Jews have money and power - it is only because they learn hard and work hard. It's not because they have tails and horns and they rob money from banks. BTW, there are also rich and powerfull non-Jews in America! American Jews are Americans first. Not Jews. The remark was a bit out of place.

The thing is there are whores(politicians) on both sides. If the princes and kings over there were in the past unwilling to accept money for their oil this situation would be very very different. Israel would either be non existant or would have been wiped out by now. We all know that we aren't helping them so that they can hold onto Jerusalem...I will totally agree with you the the motivation behind our interests over there are money and power related. We are not helping the Israeli's simply because we like them or some small minority is controlling our foreign policy.

While it is true that our personal oil consumption from that area is low it is our other allies who are more dependent on the supply. Europe and Asia.

It is the collective interests of America and her allies that are at stake and that's what our policy is based on. Right or wrong allies must and should stick by eachother or else these relationships are worth nothing. Bush has fucked up by backing down. "Read my lips".

Any way you cut the pie there is no excuse for what happened on 9/11. The people over there don't even know why they are fighting anymore. They are brainwashed. They just hate Israel and they hate the "American devils". They will never take any deal that is offered to them and they will keep this going on as long as they can. It has turned into a culture of anger and hate. "In the name of God". Give me a fuckin' break.

Actually Bobo you are no better than Jamie. You are asking everyone to see both sides yet you can't see beyond your own side.

There is no argument that can be made here to satisfy you, because you are right, and that's that. If you had an TRUE openminded stance about the issues, you'd garner alot more respect. You've done nothing but spout off YOUR SIDE AS THE ONE AND ONLY since post #1.

Before you go saying I'm doing the same thing, remember, I didn't start the thread.

Finally, I have alot more respect for Jamie's post than yours, not because Jamie's on my side of the issue but because it reminds us all of the events of 911 and the outrage that we as Americans felt and should still feel over the rape of our citizens. As time fades and more bright ones like yourself want to assign blame to America for what happened, post's like Jamies put us back where we need to be. There will be plenty of time to look inward after we've stomped a few heads.

'Nuff said.

Nz

Nedder, I commend you for your last post. Very well put.

Please don't take what I'm saying as an excuse to say what happend on Sept 11th was deserved or right.

I know that's where a lot of negativity against my comments are coming from. Everybody assumes that I somehow think it was ok for it to happen. No, it was wrong. I could have been in those buildings, my relatives could have been. Why would I think it was ok???

Are you saying that we should neglect understaning the other side???

I think their are a of things that YOU are overlooking....not even of your own fault but because the information is not available to you, plain and simple. Do you really think you're going to read about what the US's real interest in the Arab world is at this point in time? No, you won't. Do you think you'll hear the complete stories of who is being killed over there and in what numbers? No, you won't. Any publicity that will keep you angry against the enemy is the only publicity you'll see now. Until 30 years from now they'll to a Dateline story where we find out the true horrors that are going on.

Nedder,

Trying to understand certain actions may help in preventing it from happening again. I have no sympathy whatsoever for what they did obviously.

The problem is that there is no real alternative than researching their motives - we CANNOT protect ourselves completely against terrorism with extra security measures or by banning all arab people from entering our countries.

You cannot destroy terrorism in its entirity - there will always be extremely unhappy people in this world who are willing to give their lives for their so called "cause". We can however, minimize terrorist acts.

I disagree with your comment about namecalling being effective.
People with some intelligence rather read a well writen text (like your previous post) than a message filled with insulting words.

What came first? The chicken or the egg? Everyone is going to see the start of this issue differently and no one will take responsibility for starting this whole ordeal. The fact of the matter is that government backed terrorists attacked innocent Americans on 9/11 and when someone hits you you hit them back. Remeber Jesus? He was nailed to a cross right? You don't turn the other cheek. We were brutally attacked and now we should and must hit these fuckers back 10 times as hard. This might sound midievel(I know this is spelled wrong) but it's not. It's reality. Survival of the fittest.

I have no time for ignorance...

good lord man, i agree, well said

Livedose,

I almost agreed with everything that you said in your last post. The problem however shows through even in your comments. It's a problem that goes right up to the top with our politicians.

This is your quote: "Right or wrong allies must and should stick by eachother or else these relationships are worth nothing."

People like Nedder and Jamie would agree with that statement. I, being the open minded person would disagree whole-heartedly with that statement.

Why do I disagree with it?? Simple. Some things are RIGHT and some things are WRONG. Just because you are friends doens't change what's RIGHT and what's WRONG. If you are going to participate in something that you know is WRONG because of a friendship then you may have saved that friendship but you've breeched your trust and obligation to everybody else. How far are you willing to do something WRONG in order to STICK BY your allies/friends???

Maybe if we were more concerned with doing what's RIGHT instead of maintaining a group of groupies (that's really what other nations are to the US), then things could be better, not worse then they are.

I'm not arguing for a perfect world. I'm not that fucking loony. I'm saying we have to be careful in what actions are taken and clearly you would be willing to do WRONG or see it as being ok so long as it doesn't affect you but keeps national friendships.

The "true horror" is that there is a place in this world called the middle east, where 400 million muslims are being fed all day through their media and their governments and their religious leaders, that America is satan; Instead of telling them they are poor and miserable because their governments keep all the oil money for themselves, they take the money and tell them their dire condition is because of Satan American and Satan Zionism. If you could begin to understand just how much these 400 million people hate the Americans and what they are willing to do in order to prove it - you would overlook any political mistake America may be making in the process of trying to defend itself, and in deed, the free world.

These 400 million fuck nutters are developing as I am typing this Biological, Chemical and Nuclear weapons. They are not enlightened Europeans like the Russians. They will not have the sense not to use it. As soon as they will have it - they will deliver it.

It is that simple.

Again, is America a nation of Saints? No. Is it right to do what it is doing, along with the mistake and the mis-fortunes? Hell YES!

As for "understanding the other side", trust me - the Americans are begining to do just that thank God! If you "understood the other side" you would have trouble sleeping at night!

LOL

Bobo,

You should know the company you keep so that you know you would always back your friends up 100%. I would always back up my friends no matter what and they would do the same....

You are such an idealist it is funny. Did you graduate Berkley? Serious question.

AHAHHAHAHAHA:1orglaugh

Damn if we looked at every foreign policy decision as being either MORALLY RIGHT or WRONG, we'd all be 3-legged glowing cockroaches right now.

Do the Right Thing was a movie, not a mandate on foreign policy. Our interests are just that, OUR INTERESTS. More often than not, when you have an interest, it has an equal and opposite interest that winds up getting devastated in the process.

Terrorists don't obey the "Don't step on the Daisies" signs and neither should we.

This world ain't a pretty place, and idealists have the hardest time of all I guess. At the end of the day, Idealists need to bow down to the throne that is America, because our bastardized murderous policies are those that allow you to live in the relative comfort that you do. For those at the wrong end of the sword, my apologiez, but our self preservation is that which keeps this earth a' turnin...and a burnin'.

Nz

See you think "doing the right thing" over having your friend's back is the best thing when in reality people look at that kind of behavior as spineless and a person who could not be trusted when push comes to shove. Those kind of people are on their own.

We have all erred in our lives. To take the high and mighty route is arrogant.

This guy is a fucking moron! Wanna know why? Not only is he talking out his ass, he makes a post on a AMERICAN board about some pullshit he dreamed up and then ask people to "Stay off my case".... Point, Set, Match.....


Dude Give me you address and I'll send you a DVD player, and ill even include some books for you to read.. hell you know what, I'll even send you a fucking picture of osama so you can Snuggle up next to at night. you fucking peice of shit.

You sir have the IQ Of A Jelly Fish On Crack!!

Ok Livedose,

I didn't want to go here but you made me. You'd back your friends if they were doing wrong??? Those are your exact sentiments my friend.

So, you friend rapes a girl. You're there or he tells you about it. You gonna vouche for that innocent girl like a man and kick your friends ass or are you gonna forget about it. After all, he's your friend.

Man, before I call it a night...

I wanna thank Bobo for this thread...it led me to this open letter entitled "Why I hate America"...

http://www.infoshop.org/pipermail/in...er/000118.html

This letter proves to me, once and for all, that there is nothing we can do to change the perception of America in the Middle East. We can pay them, feed them, buy their oil, but we can never overcome this kind of inbred hatred.

Nz

Capribex has fed into the American propaganda all the way.

He thinks 400 million people hate the US. Those are his exact words.

If 400 million people hated the US, you would've seen more than 2 planes go into those buildings. You would have seen a few hundred.

You would see more of it happening now.

Do you think those 400 million people are stupid? They don't have a brain? They all think alike?

Please...

Going to frame this post and hang it on the wall next to my desk. Well, said!

Stopping fucking with my words and read my posts. Non of my close friends would ever rape a girl. As a matter of fact myself and 2 other people beat a punk to within 1 inch of his life after he tried to rape one of our friends. If you were in charge you would put me in jail for this. Right you phoney.....?

We don't see more of it because brave Americans who protect us are doing all the "bad" things you don't like right now as we speak and for many years past. And yes some of it is being done in secrecy... ooooh

R3K, your post was completely uncalled for. Take you anger someplace else.

Nedder, in your posts you're confirming what I've been saying. You agree that America have "murderous policies" in your own words.

Policies like that while maintaining our great standard of life (which I love and cherish) do sometimes have repurcussions (Sept11???). In effect, you've agreed with me all along.

Brave Americans???

Some would argue the men who sacrificed themselves flying planes into buildings were brave. They certainly didn't fear death.

True, Livedose your friends may never want to rape anybody, but you said you'd back them right or wrong. Therefore if they did rape somebody, you would give them the it's ok.

Ok, I have to go work the sun is coming up. I have truly enjoyed this exchange. A lot of good valid points and Bobo you are entitled to your views and I respect that. This is the beauty of our system here. No ones door will be kicked in tonight and no one will be carted off to jail and tortured even though very extreme points were made on both sides.

Everyone knows where I stand. I will never change my point of view. I love my country. I love the freedom I am given to be good or bad, rich or poor, and educated or ignorant. let the chips fall where they may.

Good evening all!

Peace,
LiveDose:thumbsup

"Everyone knows where I stand. I will never change my point of view. I love my country. I love the freedom I am given to be good or bad, rich or poor, and educated or ignorant. "

Believe it or not those are my sentiments, exactly :thumbsup

Cheers, have a good day everybody!

Bobo I have finally realized that it is totally pointless to have a discussion with you. I think everyone else realized this before me.

You don't in fact love your country as you say, you only love the freedom it provides for you to bash it. Shame on you! Anyone fighting in the name of America is protecting you from ever having to in the future.

And yes, I would back my friends 100%... Did I st-t-t-tutter?????

Good night.

Number One, Slappy.. YOUR fucking post was uncalled for. YOU decided to bring your propaganda to the board and you cant take the heat..

Number Two: Take my anger? Fuck you! Take my fucking anger and ram it up your fucking ass. You aren?t shit; you?re like a little mouse biting through a wall. And the only reason I even posted on this piece of shit fucking thread is because im tired of seeing you and your little comrades posting the same kind of dribble on the board over and over.. Dude your now a mouse that had bitten into an electrical wire, keep-chewing rodent and you will catch some copper.

There is nothing worse than an uneducated fuck stick that wants to point the finger at someone better off than they are, just because your family is shit doesn?t mean YOU came from OUR ass.

Wise up funny boy, you have been bouncing around from subject to subject on this thread why? Because you do not have the intelligence to shut your fucking mouth when you know your wrong. When all is said and done, look back at post one of this thread and realize that YOU started the shit, and you will fucking catch the slack for it. Again don?t tell ME where to go with my anger when you?re the snot nosed cunt that caused it. Go suck on a tit and grow up a bit, than come back for some more!

>>Brave Americans???

Some would argue the men who sacrificed themselves flying planes into buildings were brave. They certainly didn't fear death<<

Bobo my friend. You want to talk brave? There was a 26-year-old pararescueman serving in Afghanistan named Jason, I didn't know him but I knew his wife, I went to high school with her.

When our Chinook helicopter was brought down Jason was one of the guys who worked for 2 days bringing back the dead and wounded. He was killed on the 2nd day. When I think about what he did for his country and his fallen brothers, it brings me to my knees.

You wanna talk brave? Try writing a letter to your wife and kids telling you how much you love them and that if they are reading the letter it means you are dead but you'll never stop loving them.

You wanna talk brave? Try being a widowed single mom, serving in the military, suddenly having to raise 2 kids on your own.

A group of thugs planning mass murders, hiding like snakes with boxcutters, slashing women's throats to gain access to an airline cockpit isn't my definition of bravery.

Maybe it's yours, and if it is, I'll give you one thing I've not given you previous to your last post, my pity.

Thanks Jason, some of us in America appreciate your ultimate sacrifice.

Nz

Bobo,

And when you were talking about "America" or "American Jews" you were not making generalities? The rule is, if you say it, it is not general?

To the point, when I said 400 Million I didn't mean that I counted them. They are multiplying too fast so I really can't keep track of the accurate number. However, there are about 1 BILLION muslims in the world. Only about half of them are Arabs. So I think I am more than likely correct.

As for the level of their knowledge, I really don't think we live in the same world. Smart or not, these people are NOT EXPOSED to information that would make them enlightened. Part of the reason why it took the world so many years to leave the middle-ages and enter the Renaissance was because of systematically not approving information for release (both by Church and rulers).

These people do NOT LIVE IN DEMOCRACY! They don't have CNN. For instance, if an Iranian is caught with a satellite dish - he may be beheaded! For the most part they can't read, and they don't speak any language other than Arabic. They don't read your papers, they don't listen to your radio channels and they don't watch your TV channels. All they are exposed to, most of the time, through their teachers, leaders, parents and Mullah - is the lowest forms of propaganda.

In a recent survey it was found that 80% (!!!) of Arabs still think and believe that Jews kill Christian children in order to bake Mazzas for Passover. I don't want to tell you what they think about Americans.

I CAN generelize and say that most of them, under the kind of regimes they are subjected to, are not only un-informed - they are ill informed. Someone is systematically shaping their views. The reason why more airplanes don't crash into tall buildings in America is because America doesn't have a population of 400 Million muslims and because it doesn't neighbour countries like Syria, Iraq, Iran, Lebanon etc. This means the only exposure you have is from those Arabs/Muslims/Palestinians who live IN the USA, and today they are (thank God) under supervision.

Oh, and of course, there are those American soldiers who are looking after you all over the world, doing their "unjust" things.

You should be so lucky to have the right to think and write your mistakes.

Thank you for making that post. That really got to me. I couldn't agree more.

Blame Canada...Blame Canada...with their beady lil eyes and their flapping lil heads...not to mention giving us Celine Dion and that horrible attrocity named Brian Adams

Bobo you are MORON:321GFY

Bobo, I read your post, I love america as much as you do, I think you should have said "American Government" Because alot of them took you wrong, I know exactly what you are saying,
Our Government is always were they shouldnt be, instead of putting the money they use into taking over other countries wars, they outa feed all the homeless, starving children here.
But they are too greedy for that.
Just like they tax a $1.00 bill at the least 4 times, you make your money, they take out taxes, you get what is left and go to the store, buy something, more taxes are taken out, hell they even tax our savings accounts. (and that is money they already taxed, from our pay) Yes our government is greedy.
It is the people that make this a great Country, and Our government that makes us look bad.
As for the towers alot of people died for no reason, it changed nothing, Everyone is still nasty and greedy as they were before it happened. The Government is a big web of lies. and one day, We will have no say so over our lives because of them,
we are not free and never will be,
( I guess more free than others ) but not like we should be.

The Government of the United States, is not a good enity or is it a bad enity. Our Government does what it perceives to be in the best interest of the United States and this is as it should be.

While I do not always personally agree with what the Government perceives as being in our best interests is not of any importance.

Members of the house are up for election every two years, members of the Senate are up for election every six years, and the President is up for election every four years. Our Government is a Government in flux and the people can control who and what our Government is about.

I've been misinterpreted. Please re-read some of my posts.

I'm Pro-America. Believe me, I would sacrifice a lot more than most of those on here who claim they love America more than I do.

All I'm saying is that we excercise some caution.

Nedder, your point is taken. I sympathize with the families of dead American soldiers. It is a horror I would never want to fathom. I also know that many families over in Arab land lose family members the same way. They are flesh and blood and regardless of what system they live in, they feel and love too.

But it's easier to blow them to bits when you think that 400 million of them hate you. That may or may not be accurate. I doubt it is. Common sense tells me otherwise.

At the same time, I want to thank capribex for his last post. I guess that's the grey area. These people do live in darkness and religious dogma and this very fact makes it possible for many thousands of them to hold false negative preconceptions of Americans.

Nobody cherishes American freedoms more than I do. That is part of its strength. I love being able to disagree with some of you and carry on a debate without getting murdered for it. This topic was created merely to invigorate and to be provocative. To re-establish why you feel the way you do about your country and to re-assess whether those feelings are justified. I think this is a healthy excercise.

This thread was not created to have a backlash of hate mongers. Individuals like R3K tried to make it into a threatening arena. That is not progressive or useful.

<center><font color=octaan face=verdana size=4>America=Arab Nations</font></center>

the Usa and all Arab nations are exactly alike, with one sole difference USA actually has a lot of money and millitary force, Arab nations wish they'd have a lot of money and millitary force, if roles where opposite , where the Arab nations where the richest in the world Americans would be sending hijacked plains towards mekka

I am definetly not anti american nor am I anti arabs, but all I mean to say that all this Osama and palestine fuzz, is just a mere competion based thing , ''I want to have the most power''

the end of the day no one is right and no one is wrong, is what I think of all this dumb politics bullshit (ok, that sick Osama fuck might be a bit wrong)

Tedster you're right with one thing. The Arabs do wish they had the power America does and they resent America for it.

I do prefer America to have power rather than the Arabs because America is a much more free thinking society. If the Arabs ruled the world like they do the Muslim nations, this world would undoubtedly be an even worse place.

Its amazing this thread shows how many idiots there are out there :) America goes out of their way to help out other countries, and you can bet if we have alot to gain from doing so they we would be more likely to do so.


Two corrections however. The US does get most of its oil from the middle east, the oil we mine, the oil canada mines, the oil mexico mines, all gets sold off. The oil in the Middle East is more premium so we use that, and sell of the oil we mine. Pretty funny that we don't even use our own stuff, but hell we want the best :)

Also the US pretty much only goes to war, when the UN says so. So every country that is part of the UN is responsible, its just we have the best military forces, so we end up doing most of the work. I think the UK is always there right beside us though :)

free thinking?? you got to be joking,

a friend of mine once went to San Fransisco , and he wasn't even alloud to smoke a cigarette on the street , don't know if it is 100% true, but c'mon that is not free thinking,

might seem like a dumb example , but it only shows the high level of hypocrisy in American society

Prog,

Your qoute: "Also the US pretty much only goes to war, when the UN says so."

Don't you realize that statement is tongue in cheek?

The UN IS THE US. You really think any other member of the UN has any say in matters of the UN??? Take a look at how much money the US puts into the UN and it'll be no suprise why the US controls the UN. I don't recall the exact numbers but it the US puts in something like 80% (or higher) into the UN. Whatever the US does will be supported by the UN. They are synonymous.

Money = power and influence.