America did go to war with us - we won. Check your history books. Not kidding either.

You are forgetting the 70s when they put up the oil price and the world went into recession. Except the arms industry who just sold them more guns. Is that what you mean by dragging them into the 20th Century?

Like I said this is far to complex a topic for this board.
Politicians can not solve it so what chance have we.

in the 70's they supplied a lot more (percentage wise) then they do today. new technology has opend up a LOT more oil in new places unheard of in the 70's

Sleazy, I'm aware of that war. But you wouldn't be able to find it in a history book in America. The text I used was imported....from Canada:thumbsup

Politicians are a bunch of spineless whores, that's why they would never even come close to solving an issue like this. But man oh man that is another thread all together...

Charly,

You're thread about not being able to choose a beverage made me giggle.

While there is some truth in that, I do think it's important for us to discuss matters like this because they affect all of us whether we want it to or not.

We should discuss it whether we are a CEO of a corporation or a simple smut peddler. It's important.

The decisions that our leaders make affect us also. We reap the consequences of the choices they make.

Most of the world is in chaos.

Why don't we all stop blaming the US for everything that happens? Surely they are involved in alot of issues, but so are most of the countries - although be it on a smaller scale.

Also, namecalling is a sign of weakness.

This sure looks like a nice attempt to win the DVD player, this USA subject is so SENSITIVE to alot of people.

Livedose,

Thanks for your last post. I can't help but use it as an opportunity to further my initial argument. Here goes:

Politicians are spineless assholes. Therefore they make choices, often bad choices because they are fuckups. Those choices include bad policies that fuck up other nations and make them hate America.

Do you see where this is going. You've actually added to what I've been saying. America may even be 'good at heart' but America sometimes may get involved in things to further it's interests (greed) because of politicians.

In other words, knowing that politicians are spineless bitches, is it not hard to beleive that they have and are cauing shit elsewhere which breeds hate against the entire nation that they represent??? If something like that is allowed to ferment for decades, people can actually get pissed enough to steal planes and drive them into buildings.

Dual,

Ok, I'll pull it back a bit. I did not intend for it to be read that I'm blaming America for all of the worlds problems. If that's what it sounded like, I apologize. That's not my intention, nor do I blame the US for all of the worlds ills.

Like I said before, I like the American system over others. Especially over overzealous religious regimes that believe in ancient/irrelevant doctrines. Personally, I think the Arab nations would be fucked up with or without ever having known that a USA ever existed. It's obvious that their country is backwards, living in a time capsule. One that isn't fair or equal. One where individuals can't do as they please.

I only started this to show the ppl who think that the US is 100% right in this issue that they may not be. Nobody is perfect. No nation is perfect. Maybe that's part of being the leading nation. Your hands become the bloodiest...maybe that's the only way to maintain your power. But those are the facts.

Hope I made myself clear.

GREED IS GOOD....


(hold on part 2 coming)

FUCK YOU !

TERRORIST FLEW MULTIPLE PLANES INTO OUR TWIN TOWERS..

PEOPLE DIED AND YOUR A RETARDED FUCKING IDIOT!


GO FUCK YOURSELF X 2

ASSHOLE

Ofcourse the US is not 100% right, its run by these tiny little ants called: "Humans".

World politics is a very complex thing, you have to try to keep everybody satisfied. Right now, 20 advisers are creating comments/speeches for George W Bush to make sure he doesn't say anything offensive. I am glad I am not in the president`s position.

Actually namecalling is an extremely effective tool, Dual.

It may not gain you respect in an Oxford debate, but when you are in the trenches and battling people with an obviously limited thought process, name calling and insults provides the perfect impetus for them to get angry and make even bigger fools of themselves.

The argument here was never that the U.S. was squeaky clean, its that we do what we have to do to further our own interests.

My problem with Bobo is that his argument is very hollow. It's along the lines that we should try and "understand" why they committed such a horrible act of terrorism against us. That somehow our greedmongering foreign policy is justification for why we should get hit.

This naive stance fails to take literally hundreds of different issues into account. Like, for instance. All of the suicide bombers were Arab. Not Afghany, not Palestinian, but Arabs. Our allies, remember?

Maybe before we look into the proverbial mirror, those criticizing us for backing the Jews should think about how much money and resources we give to countries in the Middle East, and how they gladly take it and funnel it into their own mass media to blame the US for all of their internal strife. These countries have big problems, most of them are not caused by the U.S. The powers in those countries know, however, that if you deflect the blame to the Infidels across the ocean, it makes it alot easier to stay in power.

Buying into the "America deserves what it gets because..." argument is simply buying into the same Propaganda perpetuated by those powers who would have the U.S. be their scapegoat.

See, no namecalling. Not nearly as effective.

Nz

Ya see, it's motherfuckers like Jamie who have no fucking clue what happens outside his/her bedroom window that only adds fuel to the idiocy.

I'm retarted for clearly articulating a very valid point??? Fuck you! Don't just spew out your hate bullshit. I'm a more effective US citizen then you'll ever be. Why? Because I'm informed on WORLD issues. I don't just hear of something bad happening and begin placing blame and throwing bombs and telling everybody who doesn't agree with me a retard.

Bobo,

The most importent thing to keep in mind, is that whatever information you may have, was supplied to you by news agencies that have their own agendas.

For instance, CNN has started a few weeks ago cnnarab.com which is a new business initiative to captivate Arab audiences. This, overnight, changed completely the way they cover the war in the middle east. All of them sudden the Israeli attacks are not a response for Palestinian suicide bombers killing hundreds of innocent women and children. All of the sudden it is a sign of Israeli aggression.

The problem is, there is always an interest behind the information that you are being presented with. This is non-governmental. there are no politicians here! It's the corporate media agencies around the globe.

Al Queida sad that they killed all these thousands of Americans because of American presence in Saudi Arabia. American presence in Saudi Arabia is not because of greed or poor statemainship. It's because otherwise the entire oil reserves of the free world will be held by one Saddam Hussein.

I am also not an American and I also don't think that America is a nation of Saints. But I do think that without America and American Politics - this world would be all bad.

As for Jewish influence in America, my friend, there are as many muslims in America as there are Jews. If you understood what America stands for, you would understand that if the Jews have money and power - it is only because they learn hard and work hard. It's not because they have tails and horns and they rob money from banks. BTW, there are also rich and powerfull non-Jews in America! American Jews are Americans first. Not Jews. The remark was a bit out of place.

The thing is there are whores(politicians) on both sides. If the princes and kings over there were in the past unwilling to accept money for their oil this situation would be very very different. Israel would either be non existant or would have been wiped out by now. We all know that we aren't helping them so that they can hold onto Jerusalem...I will totally agree with you the the motivation behind our interests over there are money and power related. We are not helping the Israeli's simply because we like them or some small minority is controlling our foreign policy.

While it is true that our personal oil consumption from that area is low it is our other allies who are more dependent on the supply. Europe and Asia.

It is the collective interests of America and her allies that are at stake and that's what our policy is based on. Right or wrong allies must and should stick by eachother or else these relationships are worth nothing. Bush has fucked up by backing down. "Read my lips".

Any way you cut the pie there is no excuse for what happened on 9/11. The people over there don't even know why they are fighting anymore. They are brainwashed. They just hate Israel and they hate the "American devils". They will never take any deal that is offered to them and they will keep this going on as long as they can. It has turned into a culture of anger and hate. "In the name of God". Give me a fuckin' break.

Actually Bobo you are no better than Jamie. You are asking everyone to see both sides yet you can't see beyond your own side.

There is no argument that can be made here to satisfy you, because you are right, and that's that. If you had an TRUE openminded stance about the issues, you'd garner alot more respect. You've done nothing but spout off YOUR SIDE AS THE ONE AND ONLY since post #1.

Before you go saying I'm doing the same thing, remember, I didn't start the thread.

Finally, I have alot more respect for Jamie's post than yours, not because Jamie's on my side of the issue but because it reminds us all of the events of 911 and the outrage that we as Americans felt and should still feel over the rape of our citizens. As time fades and more bright ones like yourself want to assign blame to America for what happened, post's like Jamies put us back where we need to be. There will be plenty of time to look inward after we've stomped a few heads.

'Nuff said.

Nz

Nedder, I commend you for your last post. Very well put.

Please don't take what I'm saying as an excuse to say what happend on Sept 11th was deserved or right.

I know that's where a lot of negativity against my comments are coming from. Everybody assumes that I somehow think it was ok for it to happen. No, it was wrong. I could have been in those buildings, my relatives could have been. Why would I think it was ok???

Are you saying that we should neglect understaning the other side???

I think their are a of things that YOU are overlooking....not even of your own fault but because the information is not available to you, plain and simple. Do you really think you're going to read about what the US's real interest in the Arab world is at this point in time? No, you won't. Do you think you'll hear the complete stories of who is being killed over there and in what numbers? No, you won't. Any publicity that will keep you angry against the enemy is the only publicity you'll see now. Until 30 years from now they'll to a Dateline story where we find out the true horrors that are going on.

Nedder,

Trying to understand certain actions may help in preventing it from happening again. I have no sympathy whatsoever for what they did obviously.

The problem is that there is no real alternative than researching their motives - we CANNOT protect ourselves completely against terrorism with extra security measures or by banning all arab people from entering our countries.

You cannot destroy terrorism in its entirity - there will always be extremely unhappy people in this world who are willing to give their lives for their so called "cause". We can however, minimize terrorist acts.

I disagree with your comment about namecalling being effective.
People with some intelligence rather read a well writen text (like your previous post) than a message filled with insulting words.

What came first? The chicken or the egg? Everyone is going to see the start of this issue differently and no one will take responsibility for starting this whole ordeal. The fact of the matter is that government backed terrorists attacked innocent Americans on 9/11 and when someone hits you you hit them back. Remeber Jesus? He was nailed to a cross right? You don't turn the other cheek. We were brutally attacked and now we should and must hit these fuckers back 10 times as hard. This might sound midievel(I know this is spelled wrong) but it's not. It's reality. Survival of the fittest.

I have no time for ignorance...

good lord man, i agree, well said

Livedose,

I almost agreed with everything that you said in your last post. The problem however shows through even in your comments. It's a problem that goes right up to the top with our politicians.

This is your quote: "Right or wrong allies must and should stick by eachother or else these relationships are worth nothing."

People like Nedder and Jamie would agree with that statement. I, being the open minded person would disagree whole-heartedly with that statement.

Why do I disagree with it?? Simple. Some things are RIGHT and some things are WRONG. Just because you are friends doens't change what's RIGHT and what's WRONG. If you are going to participate in something that you know is WRONG because of a friendship then you may have saved that friendship but you've breeched your trust and obligation to everybody else. How far are you willing to do something WRONG in order to STICK BY your allies/friends???

Maybe if we were more concerned with doing what's RIGHT instead of maintaining a group of groupies (that's really what other nations are to the US), then things could be better, not worse then they are.

I'm not arguing for a perfect world. I'm not that fucking loony. I'm saying we have to be careful in what actions are taken and clearly you would be willing to do WRONG or see it as being ok so long as it doesn't affect you but keeps national friendships.

The "true horror" is that there is a place in this world called the middle east, where 400 million muslims are being fed all day through their media and their governments and their religious leaders, that America is satan; Instead of telling them they are poor and miserable because their governments keep all the oil money for themselves, they take the money and tell them their dire condition is because of Satan American and Satan Zionism. If you could begin to understand just how much these 400 million people hate the Americans and what they are willing to do in order to prove it - you would overlook any political mistake America may be making in the process of trying to defend itself, and in deed, the free world.

These 400 million fuck nutters are developing as I am typing this Biological, Chemical and Nuclear weapons. They are not enlightened Europeans like the Russians. They will not have the sense not to use it. As soon as they will have it - they will deliver it.

It is that simple.

Again, is America a nation of Saints? No. Is it right to do what it is doing, along with the mistake and the mis-fortunes? Hell YES!

As for "understanding the other side", trust me - the Americans are begining to do just that thank God! If you "understood the other side" you would have trouble sleeping at night!

LOL

Bobo,

You should know the company you keep so that you know you would always back your friends up 100%. I would always back up my friends no matter what and they would do the same....

You are such an idealist it is funny. Did you graduate Berkley? Serious question.

AHAHHAHAHAHA:1orglaugh

Damn if we looked at every foreign policy decision as being either MORALLY RIGHT or WRONG, we'd all be 3-legged glowing cockroaches right now.

Do the Right Thing was a movie, not a mandate on foreign policy. Our interests are just that, OUR INTERESTS. More often than not, when you have an interest, it has an equal and opposite interest that winds up getting devastated in the process.

Terrorists don't obey the "Don't step on the Daisies" signs and neither should we.

This world ain't a pretty place, and idealists have the hardest time of all I guess. At the end of the day, Idealists need to bow down to the throne that is America, because our bastardized murderous policies are those that allow you to live in the relative comfort that you do. For those at the wrong end of the sword, my apologiez, but our self preservation is that which keeps this earth a' turnin...and a burnin'.

Nz

See you think "doing the right thing" over having your friend's back is the best thing when in reality people look at that kind of behavior as spineless and a person who could not be trusted when push comes to shove. Those kind of people are on their own.

We have all erred in our lives. To take the high and mighty route is arrogant.

This guy is a fucking moron! Wanna know why? Not only is he talking out his ass, he makes a post on a AMERICAN board about some pullshit he dreamed up and then ask people to "Stay off my case".... Point, Set, Match.....


Dude Give me you address and I'll send you a DVD player, and ill even include some books for you to read.. hell you know what, I'll even send you a fucking picture of osama so you can Snuggle up next to at night. you fucking peice of shit.

You sir have the IQ Of A Jelly Fish On Crack!!

Ok Livedose,

I didn't want to go here but you made me. You'd back your friends if they were doing wrong??? Those are your exact sentiments my friend.

So, you friend rapes a girl. You're there or he tells you about it. You gonna vouche for that innocent girl like a man and kick your friends ass or are you gonna forget about it. After all, he's your friend.

Man, before I call it a night...

I wanna thank Bobo for this thread...it led me to this open letter entitled "Why I hate America"...

http://www.infoshop.org/pipermail/in...er/000118.html

This letter proves to me, once and for all, that there is nothing we can do to change the perception of America in the Middle East. We can pay them, feed them, buy their oil, but we can never overcome this kind of inbred hatred.

Nz

Capribex has fed into the American propaganda all the way.

He thinks 400 million people hate the US. Those are his exact words.

If 400 million people hated the US, you would've seen more than 2 planes go into those buildings. You would have seen a few hundred.

You would see more of it happening now.

Do you think those 400 million people are stupid? They don't have a brain? They all think alike?

Please...

Going to frame this post and hang it on the wall next to my desk. Well, said!

Stopping fucking with my words and read my posts. Non of my close friends would ever rape a girl. As a matter of fact myself and 2 other people beat a punk to within 1 inch of his life after he tried to rape one of our friends. If you were in charge you would put me in jail for this. Right you phoney.....?

We don't see more of it because brave Americans who protect us are doing all the "bad" things you don't like right now as we speak and for many years past. And yes some of it is being done in secrecy... ooooh

R3K, your post was completely uncalled for. Take you anger someplace else.

Nedder, in your posts you're confirming what I've been saying. You agree that America have "murderous policies" in your own words.

Policies like that while maintaining our great standard of life (which I love and cherish) do sometimes have repurcussions (Sept11???). In effect, you've agreed with me all along.

Brave Americans???

Some would argue the men who sacrificed themselves flying planes into buildings were brave. They certainly didn't fear death.

True, Livedose your friends may never want to rape anybody, but you said you'd back them right or wrong. Therefore if they did rape somebody, you would give them the it's ok.

Ok, I have to go work the sun is coming up. I have truly enjoyed this exchange. A lot of good valid points and Bobo you are entitled to your views and I respect that. This is the beauty of our system here. No ones door will be kicked in tonight and no one will be carted off to jail and tortured even though very extreme points were made on both sides.

Everyone knows where I stand. I will never change my point of view. I love my country. I love the freedom I am given to be good or bad, rich or poor, and educated or ignorant. let the chips fall where they may.

Good evening all!

Peace,
LiveDose:thumbsup

"Everyone knows where I stand. I will never change my point of view. I love my country. I love the freedom I am given to be good or bad, rich or poor, and educated or ignorant. "

Believe it or not those are my sentiments, exactly :thumbsup

Cheers, have a good day everybody!

Bobo I have finally realized that it is totally pointless to have a discussion with you. I think everyone else realized this before me.

You don't in fact love your country as you say, you only love the freedom it provides for you to bash it. Shame on you! Anyone fighting in the name of America is protecting you from ever having to in the future.

And yes, I would back my friends 100%... Did I st-t-t-tutter?????

Good night.