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woj	06-21-2006 03:57 PM

200..........

Atticus

06-21-2006 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxjohan

Some will buy porn and some will not... it's as simple
as that. Different triggers for different people. Are you with me?

You can offer a free membership without creditcard and still
you will see people turn your membership down. Why is that??

You can offer surfers a site like Pornotube.com and you will see
that only a small 20% bookmark the site. Why is that??

It's not all about free porn, it's about "the package".

:2 cents:

Bingo. No need to reinvent the wheel when you can just repackage it

David - PG

06-21-2006 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DukeSkywalker

well what are you supposed to do when you got people selling traffic?
this is the downfall of the industry... a few people got greedy, now there are no more free spots, then a program says, fuck it, lets make our own network of traffic. And they build one. however, all it really does is make everyones traffic worse, including the spots you pay wayyyy to much for.

So true. TGP webmasters relaying the risk (of a positive ROI) to the ones that buy traffic. Working great when they can rotate through hordes of willing submitters standing in line to pay for overpriced spots.

Big John

06-21-2006 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tdog

Dont to complain too much. Try going and making money in mainstream.. Bankrupt in a week. Porn still makes a nice living.

You really haven't a clue have you? It's VERY easy to make money in mainstream if you do it right. Our mainstream projects now make as much as the porn stuff and have been going for half the time. Sure - porn still does well but is much, much harder than it used to be and certainly no easier than mainstream.

It's just a matter of having a clue and getting it right. Sit and think about it properly - 'mainstream' is a generic term for just about everything else on the Internet and that's a HUGE area. Of course you can make good money in it and often it's much easier to do than porn these days.

Rolo	06-21-2006 04:11 PM

The silence from AEBN is ear deafening... :2 cents:

jayeff

06-21-2006 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony

Back 98, Nickatilynx told me that it was still the wild wild west. A single webmaster could control large amounts of traffic and be a force. Once the Adult web became a corporate landscape, the mom and pop sites would disappear.

I believe we have come to that crossroad.

The "mom and pop" sites will never disappear, but in future they will be fewer in number and they will earn an income more in line with their real worth: ie a lot less than now, which in turn is already a lot less than 5+ years ago.

In terms of how online porn will develop as it matures as an industry, I'm not aware of anything to suggest it will prove to be in any way unique. If that development follows the usual route, then over the next 5-10 years there will be a lot of consolidation among the larger operators. Those that remain will hold a fairly lowly second tier because a handful of corporate-style businesses will emerge at the top of the tree (buying out some existing sites along the way). Finally there will remain many smaller sites, most much further down the economic ladder, working in specialist areas or servicing the bigger operations in some way. The discussion about free porn is basically irrelevant, not only for the reasons I gave in an earlier post, but because it is merely a symptom of more far-reaching changes.

How could it be otherwise? When an industry like this is new and there is an overwhelming excess of demand, sure someone with minimal relevant skills can sit down at a PC and with no investment but his (or her) time, make lots of money. But we have had 10 years of that already and it is naive to imagine it can continue.

If it's any consolation, many well-known names will disappear too because they will be unwilling or unable to adapt. And definitely on the plus side, once the industry has shaken itself out, drops the infighting of the last 3-5 years and starts looking outwards for new business again, total revenues will rise dramatically.

Shaze

06-21-2006 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayeff

Webmasters keep on with this illusion that if porn were not available for free, everyone who looks at porn now would become a paying customer.
ARE YOU SERIOUS? IF PORN WEREN'T AVAILABLE FOR FREE RATIOS WOULD GO UP TREMENDOUSLY!!

The cost of going along with this naive idea is that we stop looking for what is really holding us back.

But the vast majority of people will never pay for (online) porn and those who are willing to do so understand the difference between premium porn and free porn, even if, apparently, a lot of webmasters cannot make that distinction.

I grant that if there were zero free porn, we might see a trickle of one-time, curiosity sales. On the other hand, we would lose one of the best marketing tools we have, so on balance I seriously doubt we would come out in front.

If we actually want a bigger cake, instead of fighting over the one we have, we need to look at what we are selling and how we are selling it. For the most part we are selling crap which would be overpriced whatever its cost. A lot of sponsors put zero thought into marketing and most of those who do, direct their energy into ways to screw buyers out of more money than they intended to spend.

In the last few days I was emailed about a brand new site, one which turns out to be based on pics originally sent out by a content club in 2001/2002. It was dirt cheap when it was new and has been so overused I have been rejecting TGP submissions which still use it. This morning I get a list of hosted movie galleries from a very well-known sponsor: unlit, over-optimized rubbish that wouldn't sell an ID if it were the only porn site on the planet.

We aren't selling primarily to newbies any more because they are a tiny minority of the surfing population and the only countries still showing any serious growth in Internet takeup are ones that by and large we cannot process payments for.

THE WORLD WILL NEVER RUN OUT OF PEOPLE TURNING 18 AND GETTING CREDIT CARDS UNLESS IT ENDS! SO THERE ARE A TON OF NEWBIES OUT THERE!!!

As long as so many sponsors rely on armies of affiliates to make sales on the mud sticks principle, rather than offering something people actually want to buy, making money will keep getting harder.

Yesterday Will76 posted here about a scam he had got caught up in relating to charges added to his telephone bill. Everyone who responded was rightly indignant and a few even compared it to the scams online porn runs. But all those comments were along the lines of how much worse that scam was than anything in adult, or see, we are not the only people pulling tricks like that. Not one person pointed out that if such scams upset us, perhaps they upset our customers too...

SEE MY RESPONSES UP TOP.

Major (Tom)

06-21-2006 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David - PG

yes, but im starting to see that die off a tad. i dont see that model around forever. its a flawed model.

duke

Pornwolf

06-21-2006 09:50 PM

The next 5 years belongs to the folks that can afford 1gbs or better pipes. The biz is about to change. I think the rest will have to give it away free and sell ads.

Rolo	06-22-2006 01:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mutt

porntube is illegal - the problem in this industry is nobody sues anybody - no legal chill at all - oooooooo the dreaded C & D email has arrived - their knees shake - not. GUBA can attempt to hide behind the veil of being a quasi ISP providing USENET access via the WWW - there is NO defence for what PornoTube is - so if your content ends up on PornTube you either protect and enforce your copyrights or get raped. And when somebody gets raped in this industry few care - especially if the rapist is a top notch guy at tradeshows!

The studios who provide content to AEBN were too stupid to make money with their content on their own - same with the dumbasses who license their DVDs for chump change through brokers like WWC - they happily take the peanuts and think of it as gravy.

This is why AEBN will succeed... of course AEBN will try and build things into their projects (storage limits, referal codes, reporting illegal content etc.), so it will look like they are working for the content owner. However its all smoke and mirrors, which serves to save their ass. However logic would have that if they didn´t build these "pirate bays", then there wouldn´t be a problem in the first place :2 cents:

But when you look at the bottomline, then ANY studio could make TONS more money by not handing over their product/content to a company, which does not work on maximizing profits. Another benefit would be control over the content... would you trust someone with your content who also run sites, which is designed for people to "share" content?

They can call it "web 2.0" or "the future" as much as they please, but its all old concepts. User driven content have been around since the internet was created, and before that on BBS, and even before that on disks, tapes, paper etc.

So what made the golden years in the 90s on the internet, if the concept of free was already around on planet earth? It was because business people knew that surfers were willing to pay for "quality, quantity, and convenience" (thanks shiloh451), so why bother with giving away free content?

Those who broke away from that ideal business concept, where surfers with their backdoor sites (ex. thehun started as a backdoor site). Can´t really blame them - no one did anything legal to stop them, and so today history repeats itself with AEBN´s desire to once again make "quality, quantity, and convenience" FREE to the surfers - all in the name of "quick traffic numbers" instead of "long term bottomline".

andrej_NDC

06-22-2006 03:07 AM

jayeff, you are one of the most intelligent people on gfy

amalekite

06-22-2006 03:44 AM

Wow..this is a great thread...lots of cool ideas from guys who have been thinking hard

To be honest, I'm not a bit surprised at ANY of the changes that are happening.. Could have predicted all of this several years ago

But I'm coming from the small operator point of view.. I just have small sites with original content...no affiliate programs...and make a solid income since probably 98-99 ish

lately I'm making less money...but that's just because I'm lazy..not cuz the paying customers are disappearing

You MUSt understand the psychology of the paying customer to make it in this biz

The paying customer uses money for power.. He wants power over his life...He uses money to control his time spent...He will spend money just to save time

Also, the paying customer is often a collector...He will pay good money just to make a seemingly small addition to his collections

The free porno surfer is the exact opposite..The free porno surfer thinks "why do all those suckers pay 30 dollars when they can just spend all day looking for the same content for free?" This is the psychology of a loser ..ignore these people. These are the same people that will spend thousands of dollars fixing up an old car that always breaks down...and never get enough money together to just buy a new fucking car.

100,000s of thousands of images....100s of hours of video..>BIG DEAL.. THe paying surfer will fork out 30 dollars for just a few photo sets of a girl he likes....or a certain fetish he has..Thats it... One girl sells your site...or one fetish sellls your site...NO need to be Wal-Mart

I agree with the previous poster about Type in Traffic becoming more and more important

and I also think that pay per view...or pay per download type of thing will be very important.

The feeder site/ affiliate/ tgp idea is dying...I think you need one main site with a URL that surfers will remember and type in...

I always made the best money just by producing good content and constantly updating...That's really the key...just KEEP PRODUCING GOOD CONTENT AND CONSTANTLY UPDATE...PERIOD

Brand your URL...burn that URL into people's brains..make sure they remember it and type it in...and will check back every week or month or even every year...But make sure they check back.

Don't get obsessed with rebills...Lots of paying customers sign up....cancel...and then sign up again six months later. Don't obsess on rebills...Just keep producing good content and the paying customers almost ALWAYS return.

Ok I'm done rambling:2 cents:

Rolo	06-22-2006 05:07 AM

amalekite - some good points in there :thumbsup

Choppa

06-22-2006 05:34 AM

sites should always have there video content watermarked, and even if it is used for free then it becomes a good viral technique :thumbsup

Paul Markham

06-22-2006 05:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazonby

Another reason.

1. Sponsor gives access to members area to each affilliate so that they have oodles of promotional material.

2. Sponsor does not insist that the last 4-8 thumbs are not clickable to full size.

3. Between 10 affilliates, the entire members section (or as close to as makes no difference) per girl is available over a series of different galleries.

4. Surfer goes to peachy18.com or somewhere similar to find all of the available galleries of each girl.

5. Surfer whacks off to his heart's content without having to get his credit card out.

6. Everyone moans about shitty ratios but is not prepared to do anything about it.

7. No-one is prepared to make the first move because (horror of horrors) they may (or may not) have to take a temporary dip in revenue before the situation improves.

Good post.

Try to start a program and not give out any free content, see how long it lasts.

People you sell a product of jerking off for $1 a day. How bad are you at selling or how bad is your product that you can't sell a wank for $1?

Think about it for 10 seconds and then ask yourself, why is the surfer going to a free site to look at piles and pilse of shite, when for $1 a day he could join a site?

Maybe becasue he's been conned, let down, disappointed after spending $1 that he now thinks "Fuck You" I'm keeping my money.

So long as you worship the God of traffic, you will always have this situation.

If you really want to stop "Free Porn" effecting your income. Start giving the member so much genuine value he will not bother with free porn.

Paul Markham

06-22-2006 05:51 AM

I will now go back and read the rest of the thread, but what's the betting on most of the people complaining about "Free porn" are giving it away themselves.

So there free porn is alright and other peoples free porn is bad. :Oh crap

Paul Markham

06-22-2006 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayeff

Webmasters keep on with this illusion that if porn were not available for free, everyone who looks at porn now would become a paying customer. The cost of going along with this naive idea is that we stop looking for what is really holding us back.

But the vast majority of people will never pay for (online) porn and those who are willing to do so understand the difference between premium porn and free porn, even if, apparently, a lot of webmasters cannot make that distinction.

I grant that if there were zero free porn, we might see a trickle of one-time, curiosity sales. On the other hand, we would lose one of the best marketing tools we have, so on balance I seriously doubt we would come out in front.

If we actually want a bigger cake, instead of fighting over the one we have, we need to look at what we are selling and how we are selling it. For the most part we are selling crap which would be overpriced whatever its cost. A lot of sponsors put zero thought into marketing and most of those who do, direct their energy into ways to screw buyers out of more money than they intended to spend.

In the last few days I was emailed about a brand new site, one which turns out to be based on pics originally sent out by a content club in 2001/2002. It was dirt cheap when it was new and has been so overused I have been rejecting TGP submissions which still use it. This morning I get a list of hosted movie galleries from a very well-known sponsor: unlit, over-optimized rubbish that wouldn't sell an ID if it were the only porn site on the planet.

We aren't selling primarily to newbies any more because they are a tiny minority of the surfing population and the only countries still showing any serious growth in Internet takeup are ones that by and large we cannot process payments for. As long as so many sponsors rely on armies of affiliates to make sales on the mud sticks principle, rather than offering something people actually want to buy, making money will keep getting harder.

Yesterday Will76 posted here about a scam he had got caught up in relating to charges added to his telephone bill. Everyone who responded was rightly indignant and a few even compared it to the scams online porn runs. But all those comments were along the lines of how much worse that scam was than anything in adult, or see, we are not the only people pulling tricks like that. Not one person pointed out that if such scams upset us, perhaps they upset our customers too...

I want to marry you and have your babies. :winkwink:

For 6 years now I have argued up the quality of the content we sell to members and all I get in return is told I'm arrogant and think I'm the only guy who can shoot porn. Also any fool can shoot porn if he has a camera. Now you are running scared of a site that looks like a piece of shit.

My take on this is simple.

If you think the new surfer is never signing up and going straight to this kind of site to jerk off without ever moving up to a paysite you really do not have a clue.

If you're saying that after joining a few sites the surfer would rather jerk off to content on this site then you do have a clue. Now who's fault is that?

We had the surfer as a member and then we lost him.

bigdog

06-22-2006 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David - PG

There are a lot of overpriced spots but people keep on buying, thinking that hopefully one day the spot will be profitable for them.

Why	06-22-2006 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rolo

Could you please wait as I upload all the videos from euro revenue to AEBN´s Guba 2.0, and then we can talk again?

Thanks :winkwink:

sorry bud, we protect our content. go download it. it wont work in GUBA or anything else.

Why	06-22-2006 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony

You consider this thread stupid shit?

Do you work for AEBN?

:1orglaugh :1orglaugh :1orglaugh

Yes i consider it stupid shit. there is a lot more free porn on the web then that one website will ever be able to index. so why cry about this specific site? seems pretty petty and pointless to me. There will always be battles to fight in business. the strong previal, the weak will vanish. I plan and hope to be in the first of those two groups for as long as possible. but your more then welcome to throw in the towel about this site. more for the rest of us.

no i dont work for AEBN, not even close.

Rolo	06-22-2006 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Why

sorry bud, we protect our content. go download it. it wont work in GUBA or anything else.

If you can see it on your screen, then it can be copied :thumbsup

Anthony

06-22-2006 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Why

Thanks for clarifying your position, seen it before, and it's the same lack of foresight that got us into this position of even more than before.

I would enjoy revisiting this topic with you in a few years. That is if you are still around.

Paul Markham

06-22-2006 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoogieCFZ

Just wanted to chime in and say...

WATER comes out of every tap in america. In most american cities it is superbly clean, comes with free flouride, and is cheap as fucking dirt.

However, I'll bet dimes to dollars, that most of you good folks have bottled water in your home.

Even tho you can get it for free, or close to it. why?

Its the bottle. its the marketing. Its the packaging. Its everything that has to do with everything you're holding but the water.

That's the key for porn. If they can sell fucking water, we can sell porn, even in a see of free samples.

Its a matter of marketing, and there are some people out there who can market quite well, create big brand names for themselves that people recognize, trust, and want to purchase their premium, highquality water/porn from.

Problem with this comparison is so few people on the Adult Net can sell porn. Yes they can deliver it like the truck delivers the water, but selling it is a little more complex.

Anthony

06-22-2006 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

Problem with this comparison is so few people on the Adult Net can sell porn. Yes they can deliver it like the truck delivers the water, but selling it is a little more complex.

I am finding new found admiration for you.

Out of the hundreds of Noobs I helped back in the day at Netpond, not many are left. I can count on one hand.

You are so right.

just a punk

06-22-2006 09:16 AM

There is no money in the industry.

Ron2k1

06-22-2006 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayeff

... .

VERY well said, I fully agree on that

Paul Markham

06-22-2006 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by biftek

as with any business , just need to become smarted at advertising and marketing your product

1000% WRONG.

And 100% why we are in this situation. We have over advertised and over marketed an inferior product to the extent that a shit free site is stealing paying surfers.

Go away and think a bit harder.

polle54

06-22-2006 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

pricisely

Everyone hate me because I make sites with very low content % and I trade a lot of my traffic...
If just everyone would back up a bit again and people once again would be annoyed by the crappy content % on tgp's and mgp's they would actually consider buying shit again.

Right now they really don't have to consider this.

This industry is drowning.

Paul Markham

06-22-2006 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Why

you folks should focus more on making money and less on whining about stupid shit.

No whining about things instead of changing them is much more fun. :winkwink:

Paul Markham

06-22-2006 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shiloh451

The point I am making is that people who are willing to pay for porn are paying for quality, quantity, and convenience.
As others have stated this does not necessarily apply to micro niches.

Great post and I wanted to really high light this part. Unfortunately for most here they have little clue what you're talking about.

They think more money is made by paying affiliates more, giving away more free content, cutting costs on content, using more pop ups and conning the surfer.

Making more money by "quality, quantity, and convenience. " Is like talking Latin to them.

Anthony

06-22-2006 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

We don't agree often, the moons must be in alignment.

Paul Markham

06-22-2006 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mutt

The studios who provide content to AEBN were too stupid to make money with their content on their own - same with the dumbasses who license their DVDs for chump change through brokers like WWC - they happily take the peanuts and think of it as gravy.

This is just the tip of the problem. The biggest problem is the way people selling memberships regard the actual product and the customer.

Look around at the content providers and tell me which ones are REALLY GOOD and could survive in the magazine or DVD fields. Look around at the prices paid. Look around at what some people expect from a shooter and model as a days work.

There are VERY FEW content providers earning a living selling to DVD or magazines. A solo girl set in the magazines can easily make $2,000, exclusive buyers want 10 sets for that price, think about the level of work from a porn aspect. DVD scenes can easily make more than that.

So why aren't more people who produce the ONLY PRODUCT THE SURFER WILL PAY FOR, working in the other fields? Either don't want to make the extra money, not good enough or don't have the brains to find out the phone number.

So are you really surprised that a large section of the market is scared about surfers who don't want to pay for such a great product? That was English irony.

You get what you build, for years we have been building this business to where it is now. So if surfers would rather get it for free from the crap site I saw who is to blame?

Paul Markham

06-22-2006 01:32 PM

As you can see I now run a paysite and as many of you know I also run a content store, and pretty good at shooting. Not the best though.

What Eva and I did when we set out the budget for the paysite was build in a portion to buy in new non exclusive content for members. It's this simple, one rebill is worth $10 if it comes from an affiliate $25 if not.

We kicked off with 200 videos and 1500 sets from our stock of 300 vids and 2400 sets. The stuff we held back was for the 1 video and 2 sets a day we were adding.

The budget for buying in would be when we cleared our back log and need to buy in to augment our shooting.

We believed treating our customers well would be the right way to go.

Did it work with conversions and retentions? We moved it up to 2 videos and 4 sets a day recently, convert on all traffic 1:250 and retain over 7 weeks on average.

We also give away free watermarked content and get lots of type in traffic.

Treat the customer like a king and he will treat you like a friend.

We will also be developing something for the surfer who does not want to spend $30 to just jerk off once.

Paul Markham

06-22-2006 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony

We don't agree often, the moons must be in alignment.

You made some excellent points in this thread.

will76

06-23-2006 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pornwolf

So let me get this straight Will, you are saying we should embrace this free porn movement and make it easier to get high quality, more than 20 minutes of premium video at a clip, free porn?

That will spur sales and keep the industry healthy?

Free porn is good?

Is this what you are saying? That if we can stop this we shouldn't?

Where do you see me saying we should make it easier to get high quality long clips.

if you can't understand what I am saying then no point in reading any further. Here are the cliff notes.

- free porn is not going away, bitching about it is a waste of time.
- sell something that can not be giving away for free (live content, interraction).
- Things will ALWAYS change, so you better as well or you will be left behind.
- There is an oppertunity to make money in everything, just takes a little creativity to find it. People who spend time bitching about problem instead of thinking of solution are never going to accomplish anything.

mfps	06-23-2006 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shiloh451

I am fairly new to the webmaster business. My expertise comes from being a
porn surfer since the Internet stone age. I probably have a better porn collection on my HD than most pay sites can offer. The vast majority of that porn comes from paid memberships to sites I joined. The main reason I pulled out my CC was:

1) I was shown enough samples to get a read on the quality of the content, and yes that does require some hardcore content.

2)Usually when my interest moved in a new direction. I would start with surfing bbs,tgps,and mgps, to see what type of content was available in that niche.

3)I always started my collection with the free porn. One thing the industry does do right to get my $$ is make it tedious to collect the free stuff. After a while of wading through piles of shit looking for the free stuff and running around in circles, I would get bored and, focus on the sites I had run across that seem to have the best quality and quantity.
One other thing I might note if I hit a popup, popunder, or esp if someone went around my blocker it was fuck you, bye, forever. I hear about the sales people make with this shit but what about the permanent loss of sales from the pissed off surfer?

4)Then the CC would come out.

The point I am making is that people who are willing to pay for porn are paying for quality, quantity, and convenience.
As others have stated this does not necessarily apply to micro niches.

One thing I have noticed on this board is the willingness to out a scammer or cheater and the immediate condemnation by the members.

It seems to me that we as an industry are not powerless to control the webmasters who make it too easy for the surfer to get ENOUGH of the good stuff that they don't need to pay for it.

If you, as a webmaster, think that someone was giving away too much, pull their link, refuse to take their ads, get drama started on all the boards,etc.
Even someone as big as AEBN might have 2nd thoughts.

There is a massive number of good quality sites, run by honest webmasters.
We don't have to support anyone who we feel is doing real damage to the industry.

I observed the response on this board to the Met-Art cp drama and the Big Dildo rape drama.

IMHO there is no need for whining and hand wringing when there are steps that each one of us can take individually to make a difference.

Maybe I am too much of a NOOB to understand that when a program gets big enough they can make their own rules and the rest of us can get fucked.

Maybe,all webmasters are anarchists at heart and so are doomed to fail separately.

My:2 cents: . If anyone wants to educate this noob I alway willing to learn.

this was a very insightful post, thanks shiloh.

thanks to everyone else that had something intelligent to say as well.

it kinda sucks being part of the problem. :(

-John

DJPCCG

06-28-2006 02:06 PM

Ant you crack me up

Nicky

06-28-2006 06:57 PM

bump for this thread, the one who hasnt read it should go back and read it all!

iWeb_Iya

06-28-2006 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Splum

Yeap porn is dead, sell your sites, quit working porn please thanks.

:1orglaugh :upsidedow :1orglaugh

sacX	06-28-2006 07:52 PM

There's more money in porn than there used to be. Your premise is wrong.

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