Lame reply. And very obvious since you work for verosuck.

Shaving is shaving. How would you feel if a undefined small percentage of your wages would be send to your neighbour?

Anytime there are means to present potential members join options that do not properly credit the referring affiliate, it is shaving. I agree with Dave that it should be included in the programs terms and conditions.

It isn't the most difficult thing to check for, so I would suggest any affiliate check out the program they are promotion for things like this or traffic leaks. Know the number of popups your surfers will see, and what those popups are. Are they being presenting with another option to join that removes affiliate credit?

This is one of the benefits to a program that cascades it billing is the surfer is automatically presented with the next option for joining. If all works correctly, the affiliates will receive proper credit regardless of the billing method the new member uses. I cannot say in all cases, since there are few custom solutions used that I know very little about.

Never make the mistake as an affiliate to assume all programs operate the same or even in similar fashions. Get to know the principles involved in the program. Understand the their term and condition, and by all means ask questions :)

Hmm I don't really see why this reply is lame becasue I work for Verotel.

I see you only use CcBill, care to explain why this is?
As you must surely also lose sales when they decline transactions, while Paycom or Verosucks or Paymonde or any other biller could have taken those sales over.

If you do this only so the affiliate gets credited for his sale then you're one of the few out there. You then care more about your affiliates then your own wallet.

We use ccbill yes and theres a reason for that. And no we are not one of the few. Get your facts straight before you post hearsay.

Besides bashing like this is REALLY immature. You wont see a CCBILL rep do that.

its not tough at all, you said it yourself, if they have a nats (or similar) backend, affiliates are credited no matter what processor gets used. i see this as the only way to use cascading billing. its not like nats is expensive. sure, the program is just trying to save the sale but they apparently don't care if its saved for the affiliate as well by only paying out on one processor. in my mind its just justified theft by being too cheap to go with a solution that can handle more than one processor.

Not true, we use the ccbill affiliate system and can pass the referrer along to epoch, and epoch cuts the checks. So it is possible...

NATS is nice but not using it is not justified theft.

There are girls out there who have and run their own site, make 1-2 sales a day and update once a month to make a few 100 a month for spending money. Theyll never switch to NATS just because its too expensive or even the payout by epass etc is too much work.

And those sites are being promoted as well.

Just for the record no Im not talkin bout DTC.

Exactly Ray!

OBVIOUSLY you can not track sales from a secondary processor using an affiliate system run by the primary processor..

However, why shouldn't the program owner try to capitalize on already qualified surfer. It's not like this surfer is going to do a complete U-turn, jump back on your site, and signup to totally different site.

What a Fucking stupid reply.///

Are you new at verotel, or is that how they all think? If so, let me know, so I can remove some links

Thank you

Paul,

CCBill has a feature built in their software where if the card is declined then you can send that surfer to whatever url you want, and you should then use this feature to send them to your Paymonde join page at that time.

It does not make sense to give them a choice beforehand as you are doing.

50..,.......

we do it :)

then they are far from professional and i'd never work them with. i can't see not crediting affilaites with sales from other processors or even phone numbers in any other way than shaving/theft. like others said there are ways to send a referral id to another processor without nats and the like anyways. there is no excuse.

affiliates are not in the business of sending free joins for you, give me a break.:helpme

Is that your own personal opinion or Verotel marketing policy?

In the end, programs doing this will get less affiliate signups and those "caught" will lose existing ones and bad reputation. I don't see how this should bring more money for their wallet... maybe it looks good as long no one react, but you can't account for those affiliates not signing up because of it. Especially the established ones who know what to look for...

bump for more opinions

If there is a cascading billing maybe not ... but if you're under the ccbill affiliate program yeah they are cutting grass.

very interesting thread! thanks

Paul you just need to send affiliate traffic to another page that only has ccbill.

First off, I use NATS so Every sale is tracked....

However

Let says 20% of transactions decline, 5% of those are due to scrubbing and may potentially bill on a different processor, what do you suggest a CCbill based program do? Let the user head back to Google where NO one gets paid?

Unfortunately this is lost affiliate revenue anyway you look at it.

Yup it is shaving.

if they are using cascading billing how are they a ccbill based program? as an affiliate, they might as well go back to google. it doesn't benefit me in any way. i just lost a potential future customer and lost my % from the program because of it. obviously programs with this mindset are only looking out for themselves, so why shouldn't affiliates?

http://www.paulmarkhamteens.com/tour/join-us.php

Avg Joe see CCbill and Pay"something" on the join page... He's looking to join and pay, but the words "CCbill" is jargon and so he clicks the Pay"something".

At least make it clear for the surfer, "Click here to join" and then a 2nd "If you have problems joining with CCbill, Click here".

If the promo is too spendy thats not an excuse to add a 2nd processor to skim the costs of the promo... WTF. I would expect this to be more thought out from you Paul. That's shaving man.

glad someone agrees, if a big program would do this theyd be bashed all over and get a 500 pages thread. Shaving sucks.

i'll say it again

there are 2 ways using ccbill's script that you can at least make this less of a shitty thing to do to your affiliates

remove the paymonde button on the join page
show your ccbill affiliate traffic only the ccbill option at first by sending all that traffic to a "CCBill tour" by setting the redirect url in ccbill to this url.
(this way u can save your root domain tour for your own typein and seo traffic)

then when you have a decline on ccbill you can set the the join form declines to redirect to a page where you have the paymonde (or any other 2ndary biller) page set up explaining that ccbill declined so now enter your info for this processor
This way your ccbill affiliates traffic never has the option of choosing the secondary processor until after ccbill declines it

ALSO, available with ccbill's system, you can send your declined transactions an email, this gives you even another chance to send them to your secondary processor

20% can be seen in the stats, thats not real declines. For example out of 10 declines can be 8 for 1 person and trying him again and again. So its not 10, but 3 declines then. Most people ignore this fact when checking the declines statistic.

Second, many people are accepted at their second try, so even though the surfers signs-up, you see a decline(first attempt) in the stats. Is this a real decline? No.

Third, most of the other declines are people who charged back before or don't have enough money on their bank account.

So seeing 20% declines in stats can be 5% real declines, maybe even less.

Of course I did what's your fucking problem?

If CCbill didnt support cascade billing then NATS wouldn't even work.

You can cascade to another biller without using a 3rd party script, you just can't track which affilaite sent it..

So if you dont want this to happen, dont promote programs that run use the ccbill script. Simple

"lets say" -- I was using those figures as an example.

me too :)

well according to this guy...

What's your site? Do you have Nats MPA3 etc, running your affiliate program? Do you have an affilaite program? Lot of talk if you don't. It's not as easy as you think to get this stuff running. You seem to think that you buy some software and it magically gets setup overnight.

Some of us are trying to run a site. 1 fucking site. not 30 or 100 sites. A cascading affiliate program requires a hell of a lot more work than a simple ccbill program. You suddenly have to deal with hosting issues and content creation for the program etc. PLUS you have to be able to send out payment to the affilaites every 2 weeks or what ever your schedule is by yourself. will Ccbill they take care of that for you. Your going to drop at least 3 grand right from the begining to get everything setup. plus pay out another 300+ a month to rent the software. Ccbill charges nothing extra. How many extra member signups per month do you figure a single site would have to get in order to cover these costs?

We are already paying for the Hosting, content creation, credit card billing, props, dildos, design, workstations etc Plus I have to pay for all the travel to GET to that content, worry about 2257 and all the other bullshit that's coming down on site owners AND I'm paying ccbill affiliates 50% of the ccbill sale and all recurring. I have other processors on my join page, which all together account for less than 10% of the total signups the site makes. 90% still come from ccbill. The ones that ccbill misses hopefully the other catch. You call it shaving, I call it surviving.

I'm not a server guy. I know squat about unix, linux apachie or even HTML for that matter. I'm not able to take a script and install it myself let alone get something like a cascading program running. It gets to the point where you just say fuck it and stay with the ccbill program.

I started with the ccbill program like 4 years ago, was able to get it running with one phone call to ccbill and 2 hours of time. at that point affiliates where able to make sales to the site and get paid. For the last 2 fucking YEARS I have tried to get a cascading program running yet, it's still sitting undone. Promote me or don't. The ccbill program is there and stable as ever. You WILL make money. If you don't like the setup then promote something else, simple as that. Or better yet, change roles and run your own paysite and look at it from the other point of view.

obviously my point of view is that of an affiliate and not a paysite owner. yeah, there is a lot of bullshit in running a program but there are a lot of things affiliates have to worry about too. we already lose money on popups we don't get credited for, typins from those who dont buy right away, enter your email boxes, cross-sales, etc. im only trying to get credited for sales i send. maybe its just me but if i didn't have the money to invest or the know-how or at least the money to hire someone who does the have the know-how, i wouldn't be opening up a site, one or 30. of course affiliates have the choice to promote you or not, its up to you how you run your site. i do plan to open my own paysites but i won't have an affiliate program.

damn double posts :Oh crap

1. Your harping about Websites and how their affilaite program is ran yet, you don't even plan on using one yourself? Interesting to say the least.

2. As far as opening a website, maybe in my case I had a "little" more to offer than just the tech knowhow. Sounds more like you would rather just promote saturated programs. One of the reasons all the TGP etc are looking the same, cause they are all pushing the same programs.

Also, in opening the site I started it back in 2001. You could start a single site back then and do ok with it. Fortunatly, it became large enough to sustain itself over the years, but it would be almost impossible to duplicate today. The expense is just to great for the risk. EH will be the only site I do. It will always be my first and it will be my last. I guess you get burned out dealing with everyones hands out. I just think you have a sad point of view. You ignor all the creative, unusual sites out there, the smaller sites working to get by, for the larger mega sites. You really think that your not paying for that staff they have? You really think that they are taking less of a % from the sales you "Sent" them than some one me with a couple of extra ways for a surfer to signup? Give me a break. Everyone has to make a profit or we wouldn't be here. Promote the content that sells for you and stop whining about the little things so much. To call it "shaving" that dirty little word in our industy is stupid. It's not hidden. We are not trying to cheat you or fool you in someway. Shit in my case we dont have ANY popups, no consoles, no emailings. Nothing. A person gets to our join poage and either becomes a member or doesn't. End of story.

Bottom line is that is all that counts. Installing NATS and running it for a program of our size is not cost effective, would people prefer I do that and take out the profit from the affiliates payments?

I will make the CCBILL link very clear, but at present it picks up 95% of the joins.

How your traffic performs on a given site is the indication to who is shaving or not. Or just who converts better.

I owe everyone an appolagy. Well all my affiliates and will be addressisng this when I get back to work next week.

The new tour has given far too much prominence to the Paymonde link and we will romove it totally.

I will look at affiliates joins in the last week, the time the new tour was up, and make financial ammends to them.

The amount that goes via Paymonde is not worth bothering with.

http://www.paulmarkhamteens.com/tour/join-us.php

The Paymonde link is gone.

:1orglaugh :1orglaugh

asshat

Hrmm, I stand corrected...

This means CCBILL passes on personal details (name/address) of that webmaster to EPOCH in order to cut the check..

Then why are 95% of our joins via CCBILL?

Maybe because 95% of the joins the industry gets are repeat buyers and already done business with CCBILL.