I thought this was going to be a discussion about chat spam or something.

spyware and adware, yup that stuff is pretty fished up :/

fished up? what do you mean ?

Will,

Contact affiliatefairplay dot com and ask her to document your sites with videos and all the proof you'll need. She's a great asset to have on your side. You won't believe your eyes. That's what she does for a living. I would post others for whom I KNOW that she has done that but I don't want to step on any toes. If they want to come out and say it, they will.

If zango targets you, the odds are that there are many other spyware programs that target you as well, you just don't know it. Some like CoolWebSearch specialize in porn although they'll target anything and everything!

Missie

Sponsors should be killing these accounts if they get complaints... There is no excuse for them to allow scammers to steal sales from their true affiliates.

I'm sure most sponsors would have no problem killing the account if you could prove that they're hijacking links, as someone mentioned above... The sale will still go through, but the scammer won't be getting paid for it.

This thread should convince them to stop... those running Zangocash should go to prison for this, they're petty theives. :2 cents:

That's all well and good but just killing the accounts isn't going to stop them for 1 second. Was stated above they have at least 170 account names and can create new ones on the fly. Needs to get a bit deeper than just killing accounts obviously.

Missie, here's a link for you
http://www.affiliatefairplay.com/

Any respectable program would care, it would make true affiliates ratios look like shit and they would loose alot of traffic.


Ps. Do you promote Zango? you were looking into it a while back
http://www.gfy.com/fucking-around-and-business-discussion/592264-sponsor-paying-downloads-installs-worth.html

Missie - the example you gave - is this something you are seeing with our sites or is it just an example? Lord knows I'd love to have the nuts of whomever is stealing from my affiliates, the company I work for and ultimately my kids :)

My contact info is below - if ever anyone of you see anything funky going on with our sites - please do contact me and pronto. I'm always around or not very faraway.

Thanks :)

HAHAHA Thanks Brujah! :)

Actually she just told me that she's been here to read this thread already. She also said that she was going to check a few links she found here. If she finds anything on those links, I'm sure you'll be contacted. And then she might even register and post to help clear up a lot of misunderstandings about spyware. If she does, she's definitely the one to go to for all sponsors who want to know more about this, as well as affiliates.

What a lot of people don't understand is that these spyware applications rarely come on their own. They are often bundled with other spyware programs. So you get one but in reality you get a dozen of them because they all piggyback on each other.

If you don't have a good spyware blocker and a good firewall, what the hell are you doing online every day? That's pretty much what I tell my visitors. :) So they delete their cookies every day or every week. Oh well. I never counted on cookie sales since I started affiliate marketing in 1999. I'd rather lose a sale to the sponsor or merchant than to some scum affiliate who just steals from me.

Without affiliates to steal from, spyware would go nowhere. Hell, they probably wouldn't even exist. They don't have sites of their own, so the only thing they can do is steal from others or allow other affiliates to do it. Who in their right mind installs those things on purpose???

If sponsors advertise via ppc, you lose a ton of those sales to spyware if you allow it or don't know about it. If you rank well on SERPS, same thing. Spyware doesn't care how they end up on your site, it's your URL that is the target, not the affiliate site (although this happens too).

If an affiliate suddenly starts making a ton of sales out of nowhere, investigate.

If an affiliate is getting few hits but very high conversions, investigate.

If an affiliate is getting thousands of hits with no sales, investigate.

If many of your affiliates are telling you and complaining of their lack of sales or sudden drop in conversions, investigate.

I would much rather be contacted by a sponsor to ask me about my traffic and what I do to get such high conversions or such high amounts of traffic (without asking for all the details, of course) than the sponsor saying "good job Missie, WTG Missie, well done Missie" and doing nothing about it. That would tell me that the sponsor is on the ball and researching where the sales are coming from. It would give me much more confidence in that sponsor, because I KNOW that they're doing something.

No one is going to learn about spyware in one day or from one thread. But it's a good start. We have to keep this in the face of sponsors, make it known to the industry, and ASK that something be done about it.

I drop all sponsors that do nothing when told about a spyware problem.

What do you do?

Missie

It was just an example, because I saw in a post that you don't allow it in your program. :) I have no spyware on my computer and I don't test for it, so I really wouldn't know who is targeted. That's why affiliatefairplay dot com exists, for people like us. :) If she tests some of your links and she finds something, you can be assured that she will contact you about it.

Missie

Sorry man, translation = fucked up, flipped up, etc ;)

But yeh, stealing signups via the methods you brought up are wicked shady.

Not shocked that it's still going on though.

zango is a stand-up company:

http://www.realtechnews.com/posts/2959

quote: "Software downloaded from 180Solutions servers is promoting child porn."

Great thread, thanks for bringing this to my attention. And bump.

Unfortunetly I agree.. Money clouds the mind then greed takes over

Yes I care and if I find an affiliate doing this I will ban them. Affiliates who send the best traffic monitor their traffic/sign ups. People using this bot could be losing me sales in the long run.

A class action would be a good move, it seems illegal even a criminal matter.

:error Oh man, I tried to quote the post below but it wouldn't take it because of the URL. Have I posted 30 posts yet???

Actually it wasn't 180Solutions that popped the child porn, it was the Yap browser. I guess this was a case of "guilty by association". 180Solutions is notorious for saying "we didn't know, we are the victims here". It's like... we know what you're up to, we know what you do, and we don't care, but if you get caught you're on your own and we'll deny everything.

If you read Wayne Porter's ramblings on revenews dot com you'll learn some more about spyware and what's going on in the spyware world. He's got some good stuff on 180Solutions.

Missie

zango, not to be confused with http://www.zombo.com/ where you can do anything.



BUMP: For a serious topic that needs to get worked out one of these years.

I don't think they actually replace cookies since they got in trouble for that a while back. I think the problem is the affiliate programs with weak/short lived cookies. Don't rip the affiliates off with BS cookies (how about 365 days?) and the problem should be solved.

Thanks for the advice, I think ours are 120 days might them up even further.

But does that hurt the second affiliate sending the join?

They sure DO replace cookies, how do you think they steal sales from others??

Who got in trouble for that, when and where? I'd like to see that. Please post a link.

Missie

Grounds for lawsuit against zango:

Interference in the contractual relationship between Sponsor and Affiliate.

Should be a slam-dunk. Somebody needs to organize the lawsuit. It's a shame there is not a business organization for Affiliate Marketing (adult, mainstream, or both), because they would be the natural ones to pursue it.

You hit the nail on the head. And that's not only grounds to sue 180Solutions but the sponsor(s) as well, especially if they knew about it and didn't do a thing to stop it.

Missie

are you 100% sure?

wanting to hear what zango had to say, i asked a rep today about this and he told me that they do NOT replace cookies or anything of the sort... he said that MetricsDirect's (aka 180solutions) advertising engine *may* popup the same site that the surfer gets linked to or open on their own.. but according to him and literature he provided, no referral information is overwritten.. and the reason for opening up a similar/competitor site is because of *their* affiliates which bid on keywords, urls, etc... (and yes they allow sponsors to bid on their own sites - which has interesting implications if referral info is overwritten...)

will i sent you an email yesterday wanting to discuss this with you but you haven't replied yet..

the rep informed me (and as spacekadet said) they were sued 2 years back for similar accusations... he then forwarded me 2 documents, the first of which is a management assertion that
1. they don't alter, manipulate, or delete 3rd party affiliate referral tracking info
2. they don't capture personal info
3. they don't access, collect or transmit data on the affiliate network servers

the second document is an statement from an independent 3rd party consultant which audited MetricsDirect's advertising engine "AMS".. and the report came up clean.. fyi, both documents date around spring of 2005

in light of that, i'd still like to get to the bottom of this... will/missie or anyone else interested i can pass on these documents to you... 16739924 is my icq..

we need to test if zango is actually rewriting referral info, as popping up another window of the same site proves nothing.. shouldn't be too hard.. just proxy the target site... kinda like "man in the middle" attack and intercept to see what really gets sent.. someone technical with some time up for an experiment? :)


ya short cookies is another 'problem' altogether... :disgust

Deem right! Thanks for introducing us Missie, you're a star and AffiliateFairPlay rocks!. :thumbsup

Great thread will76, keep bumping this peeps, I'd love to hear Zangos POV this, their hahahahahahahahahahahaha must be going crazy. :winkwink:

You could say that technically they dont overwrite cookies, but they over write the entire affiliate site witht their own so you say potatoe I say.....

I do have video of the pop ups in action, but the other programs involved did co-operate in freezing their affiliate - so no drama from me with these guys.

ParasiteWare sucks! What is being discussed here is officially known as "Cookie Stuffing".

Check this site out for more info on this issue: http://www.benedelman.org/

Many mainstream companies like ourselves oppose this heavily and do not tolerate it. However, sadly there are still a large number of companies that just plain and simple do not care and are only concerned with the bottom line.

AffiliateFairPlay is a great company. Kellie aka Ms. B is very knowledgeable in this. I sat in on a lecture she gave. Really informative!


-=Chipmunk=-

Hi all,

I'm Kellie from affiliatefairplay which Missie has mentioned (hi Missie & Ben!). She sent me a link to this thread asking for my input, so here I am. :)

I've been testing adware applications for about 5 years now focusing on how they interact in affiliate networks/programs and in general how they make their money. I believe I was the first to test and report publicly on 180Solutions behavior with affiliate links about 3 or so years ago. Adware issues can be confusing and convoluted at times, so I'd like to just touch base on a few things to help folks understand how these applications work and dispell some myths. Mainstream affiliate marketing have been dealing with these issues for years now.

As mentioned, there are many adware applications out there and they can behave differently. They also tend to change their behavior frequently and rapidly. This is somewhat related to how much public heat they are getting over a particular practice. I'll focus on 180Solutions, since that is the particular adware brought up here. But keep in mind, they are just one of many.

General Behavior:

There are 2 ends to 180Solutions business that get talked about a lot. First is their own affiliate program (ZangoCash). They have revshare and pay per install for folks who install their software. This is Zango's affiliates. Then they have CPV (cost per view) ad network. This is where you open an account with MetricsDirect, pick your kw targets and ad urls for those kw's and place bids for each ad view (i.e. pop up through 180Solutions software). It's completely up to the advertiser what the kw targets and ad urls are. Scarier is that you can let 180Solutions manage all this for you!

180Solutions has been a very active affiliate themselves in the past and operated on all the major mainstream affiliate networks as well as with independent programs, gaming industry and I'm sure adult industry. Over a year ago, they pulled out of being an affiliate themselves with all the major mainstream networks, focusing rather on their Ad network biz. I still see ads coming through their software periodcially where it appears that 180Solutions themselves is the actual affiliate. These are usually independent programs, but their own affiliate links are the minority of ads delivered.

This is technically true. But it is also misleading. Their software doesn't go in and change some else's affiliate links . It doesn't take the tracking cookie file and change in information in it. They don't go into network servers and alter tracking information. In fact, I don't know of any adware applications that do that off hand. Any of those things step into the area of where there is established laws which could possibly come into play. Far safer to stay in areas where there isn't established law. Also they can achieve the same end result without doing that and it's easier and more efficient programming of their software.

What does happen is their software scans every page loaded into the browser on the end users computer. They have a large database file installed on the end user's computer of all the kw their advertisers are bidding on. They scan the page being browsed for keyword matches in that database with content on the web page. They look at things like the page URL and Title tag for the matches. All this is done on the end users computer. If they find a match, the send those keywords to their servers. On their own servers they then check to see what ads are currently available (highest bids, advertisers daily spend caps, day targeting, geotargeting, etc). If an ad is available they then pop the the ad url in a new browser window.

What happens specifically to affiliate traffic and affiliate links depends completely on what keywords the advertisers is using and what their ad URL is. It can be as creative and the advertiser using 180Solutions. Here are just a few of some of the more common practices I've documented:

1. The keyword trigger is the Merchants URL, merchant.com. The Ad URL is an affiliate's tracking link. The result: The end user arrives at the merchant.com (or merchant.com/whateverpage.html as 180's targeting will pick up a partial match in the full URL being browsed). 180 then loads the affiliate's track link in a pop-up. Normal tracking of an affiliate happens. An affiliate 'click' is tracked to the affiliate running campaigns through 180Solution's Ad Network. This is what many call a forced click because the end user never physically clicked on the affiliate link. It doesn't matter how the traffic originally got the merchant.com. It could have been a direct type in in the browser to the merchant, a click from a PPCSE listing, an email link or a click from another affiliate. When the originating traffic was another affiliate, then the forced click results in the first affiliate's cookie being 'overwritten.' But this is done by normal affiliate tracking programming, not by the software physcially altering the first affiliate's link or cookie. The software NEVER goes near those. It's done by setting off the second affiliate's tracking AFTER the first one has tracked and uses normal affiliate tracking programming. The aff using 180Solution is now the 'last cookie in' which is Industry standards. First cookie in situations have been discussed numerous times in the past as a solution. There are a few networks and merchants who actually do first cookie in. However, it is not a generally accepted policy by most affiliates. And I can guarantee that if it did become the Standard in the Industry, then adware would just adapt and modify their programming to accomodate this (I'll not go into how they could do that technically, but there are some applications out there right now that are not impacted by first cookie in because of how their particular software behaves).

2. Keyword trigger is the Merchant's shopping cart/payment page. Ad Url is the affiliate's link. This results in a forced click for the affiliate using 180 as above except it doesn't happen until the end user is in the Merchant's shopping cart. This is what I call shopping cart pouching. They are setting their affiliate tracking once the end user is showing clear intentions of a possible purchase. Again it doesn't matter how the end user arrived at the merchant's site to begin with. This is rather efficient targeting by the affiliate of when to set their affiliate tracking, but it is also extremely bad behavior by the affiliate IMO.

3. Keyword trigger is merchant.com (or some variation) and Ad URL is a page on the affiliate's web site. The pop will contain the affiliate's web site. What happens next depends on what is on that particular affiliate's web page. Sometimes the page is a server redirect page containing the affiliate's link. End result still being a forced click of their affiliate link and the merchant's web site eventually shows in the pop. The reason some affiliates use this technique is some of the major mainstream networks saying affiliate's couldn't put their aff link directly into adware. It's just a work around to that rule. Sometimes the page will be an actual page on the affiliate's site. However they embed coding in the page which still automatically sets off their affiliate tracking code (js, iframes) in such a way that the merchant's web site isn't viewable. So all you would see on your screen is their web site, but they have tracked their affiliate. This is a 'hidden forced click.' Thankfully this particular practice is not nearly as common as it was a couple of years ago. Most Networks and merchants consider this clear cut fraud and is grounds for immediate termination (although they may let them back in after a month or so and the affiliate agrees to stop the practice). It does still happen though and I caught an affiliate recently doing this who was actually setting their affiliate link for 4 or 5 merchants this way through one pop up. :(

Those are a few examples of what can happen but hopefully you'll have a better understanding how 180Solutions software works. Other things I've seen is merchants popping on affiliate's sites, affiliates popping on affiliate's sites, affiliates popping on network sites (that one just seems suicidal to me but it takes all kinds), networks popping on networks, ppcse listing pages popping on anything. You name it, it can happen.

Obviously sponsors/merchants can be impacted just as much as affiliates. They are having their own organic and paid traffic being redirected (or mischanneled) into the affiliate channel for a paid commission. In the case of paid traffic redirection, they end up paying for the same end user twice. For affiliate's contacting sponsors about adware in their programs, it's been my own personal experience this fact gets the sponsor's/merchant's attention more quickly than anything else. ;)

I did do a few quick tests last night with just a couple of adware application only using some general adult industry kw searches. Through 180Solutions I got pop ups for FantasyFinder, Cams.com and AFF. Through SurfSideKick I got a pop for SexSeach.com. All pop ups were affiliate links.

Sorry for the long first post. :) Adware issues complex and I actually just skimmed the surface.

This is a very interesting thread I don't want to drag off-track, but there might be someone in it who knows enough to get (separately) into the less sensational but also serious topic of PPC "arbitrage". As I understand it, this is the practise of discovering that someone will pay more per click than traffic currently costs from other sources and basically - without risk - marrying up that source and destination.

That may seem to be what buying traffic is supposed to be about, except that both traffic sources (which almost always require openness about where their traffic will be directed) and sponsors (who anticipate that traffic will actually have clicked directly to them) are being cheated by the black-hat operators. Fully legitimate affiliates are suffering too, because of the way this practise pushes up PPC prices.

Thanks Kellie for posting and shedding some light on this for people here. :)

The more people who know and understand about this, the better for all of us affiliates.

Hi Ben!!!

Those who know me know how passionate I am about spyware. I DO care about my bottomline and you should care about yours too. We wouldn't knowingly let anyone come into our home every day and steal from us, why does it happen online and so few people care?

Missie

Kellie - thanks for the great post.
I strongly suggest everyone start looking into working on this together - with the gambling gone, they will be putting the focus on adult.

Thanks for posting and help explain in very good detail how this works.

The part I quoted above is what I have the biggest issue with. In my situation, to use one of my sponsors as an example, apparently someone has bid on the keyword " ifriends ". So I can no longer make a sale from ANYONE who has zango installed on their computer, to this sponsor (and the thousands of others they target).

When my TRAFFIC clicks one of MY links, MY cookie is set. Seconds later zango detects "ifriends" in the person's browser because after I set the cookie the next thing i do is send them to ifriend's website to signup. BUT, when zango detects ifriends in their browser Zango launchs their own window (pop under that the person may not even see) which sets zango's ifriends cookie. So *I* pay for the traffic. *I* send the person to ifriends to signup. This is MY Sale, but Zango gets credit for the sale because they set the cookie after mine? They DID NOTHING. the did not generate the lead/ traffic, they did not do anything to "sell" the person. The did not pay for the ad or create it. All the did was find a way to stamp their name to the sale seconds before it goes through.

I understand they don't "alter" my cookie. What they do is replace my cookie with theirs. 1+1 = 2 and 3-1 =2 I don't care how they get there, they are deliberately targeting my traffic and stealing my signups.

The point is they do ZERO to generate sales but yet they take all the credit when someone signups.

DO you people realize that everyone of us can not make 1 penny off of a zango infected computer. They have tons of sponsors targeted. The more and more people get affected the less chance we have to make money. Look what they did on myspace the last couple weeks. Search for " myspace and zango" and read the info there. No telling how many millions of computers were infected just from that in the last couple weeks. This company single handed has ristricted us from doing business in a deceptive way. None of the people who downloaded zango did so because they wanted to screw advertisers ? what service is it doing to the end user to pop under a page to a site the user is already on ?????? Someone explain that to me.

This is deliberate and deceptive and has to be illegal, at the very least they should be liable in a civil case.

thanks for shedding light onto this kellie..

going on 3 hours sleep i had to read your example twice.. :Oh crap the term "affiliate" being applied to both parties (merchants original referrer and 180solution's ppc advertiser who buys the impression) had me going in circles.. lol

if what you say is true then indeed 180solutions should be drawn and quartered cause their statement that "they don't rewrite cookies" as interpreted by any lay person means "they don't do anything unscrupulous"... indeed misleading.. a more accurate statement would be "they don't rewrite client side referral info.. BUT alls fair if we send in our cookie 2 seconds after yours..."

i see how this is the tip of the gray region.. most people can see overwriting referral info client side is criminal and clearly illegal.. but this problem is in the ethical gray region of "well, how long do i wait before i chase your cookie?".. (on an related issue, similar issue as sponsors setting 1 day cookies.. :mad: ).. seems like they're exploiting the merchants simplistic referrer tracking technology/algorithm - ie imprecise tracking of a session... eg. if a surfer arrives at merchant.com via affiliate 1.. affiliate 1 should get credit for any purchases made by said surfer for the entire duration that they're on merchant.com, IRREGARDLESS of any subsequent tracking info sent in to merchant.com by affiliate 2, affiliate 3, etc...

a more nefarious, grayer area (perhaps unanswerable) question is... what if it was affiliate1 who generated the lead but couldn't close the deal cause the surfer wasn't ready to buy.. but a few days later re-introduced to the same merchant by affiliate2? this time around the surfer has had enough time mull over merchant.com and decides now to produce his visa after he's had a few days thought... (like when someone opens a jar after you try..'i loosened it for you'...lol)

anyways, i'll be contacting my zango rep to see what his response is to my new information.. (after i get some sleep!)..

seems to me that if enough noise is made, an answer will surface... either legally (class action law suit) or the industry evolves an answer... (ie NATS to shaving)...

hopefully the industry is listening..




ok time for bed

I have detected several accounts being used to the same sponsor, looks like some sort of rotation. Who knows they all could be them and they spread out their sales incase 1 or 2 accounts gets banned they still get paid on the other ones. I did notice one of the account names was 180solutions, so i would think that is most likely their account. Anyway, if we can get a case going I am sure subpoenas will uncover which accounts belonged to who.

LOLOL Not sure what kind of answer you expect to get, as long as you don't expect the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. I'll bet that you'll get a lot of dancing around the bush.

Ask Kellie to test your program and provide you with a video of how zango behaves on your link(s). You won't need to contact them for answers, the video will show you exactly what happens when they pop on your site(s).
It will open your eyes for sure, especially if it's one of your own ads rather than coming from an affiliate site.

That is usually what gets sponsors to wake up, when they see that THEY are the ones getting ripped off.

Missie

I will be making a lot of noise, so the affiliate companies can't say they didnt know about this.

you can hit them where it hurts (in the pocket) or get all of the sponsors to contact them and publicly block them from their affiliate programs, or do both.

Even worse, the ONLY person who would get credit for the sale in that instance would be the person bidding on clicks from the installer if I followed this, which I think I did.

So if the surfer has such a program installed (whether they are aware of it or not), then any link appearing in their browser with the target keywords (whether typed in, click from affiliate1's link, redirect with affiliate1000's link etc.), the person bidding on the keyword would always get the sale credit.

You got it! The affiliate whose site is displayed by the spyware application gets the sale. Forced click = cookie overwritten = last cookie gets the sale = spyware scum affiliate gets credit.

I know that zango/180solutions is what is being talked about here, but don't forget that's only one company and one program. There are hundreds of them out there that do the exact same thing. So don't think for a minute that because zango doesn't target you that you're free and clear of these scums. There might be a dozen others that target you and steal from you every day.

Missie

yes they do. It is the nature of how cookies work. When you come to my website and click a link to my sponsor it sets a cookie on your computer. If you were to edit that cookie you will see information there, like my account code, etc. Now when zango pops under a window that sets a cookie to the same site, if you go back to your cookies folder and open the same cookie, you see their affiliate info there. Whatever you want to call it, my cookie is altered, deleted, replaced, what the hell ever, it is gone and their cookie is there.

I have recorded this, so i have documention of it happening. I set the cookie on my computer and redirect the person to yahoo.com for example, no zango page pops up. When you edit the cookie you see my account info there. BUt when i set the cookie and then redirect the person to my sponsor's site, a zango page pops up for the same sponsor. When you go back to your cookies and open that one, their affiliate info is now in that cookie and your information is gone.

All paid advertising is affected but think about the people who are bidding on keywords there and paying, $1 for a click for webcam for example. Think of all of the money that they are being cheated out of. Every person who has zango installed that clicks one of their ads on google, they have 0 ZERO chance to make a sale from that person. This hurts google as well. How many people have bought ads on their site and lost money and stopped buying from them. How much more money or return on your investment do you think you could have gotten if it would have been a fair playing field and you would have received credit for all of your sales. This affects not only sponsors and affiliates but also people who sell ad space.

Thanks. Nothing pissed me off more then someone stealing from me. Sometimes it is as obvious as someone breaking in your home, other times, like this, you have someone stealing from you and it is hard to even notice what is going on.

Here is their offical response (from their website): http://www.zango.com/destination/cor...Assistant.aspx


A Smarter Way to Search
Zango Search Assistant recognizes keywords from your Internet browser to display ads for matching products and services from our advertisers. The Search Assistant displays advertiser websites that are directly related to websites you visit or keywords you search for ? our advertisements are useful because they are relevant to your search.

The are not shy about it, they state it right there. " display ads for matching products or services" So lets ad a "product" to their statement and add a little more truth to it...

A Smarter Way to Search
Zango Search Assistant recognizes the word "ifriends" from your Internet browser to display ads for "ifriends" from our advertisers to get credit for the sale. The Search Assistant displays advertiser websites that are exactly the same as website you are visiting ? our advertisements are useful because they overwrite the code of the person who really sent you there and allow our advertisers to make all the money. The more our advertisers make the more we make. What do you care, you are on that site already, and it doesn't cost you anything. :thumbsup

special place in hell for people like this.